Raymond or LaFreniere

[Henkka]

Why is there so much of a binary perception surrounding player development? Large swaths of people, a microcosm of the nature/nurture debate, leaning so heavily on either extreme, when it is in fact a partnership. But noooooo, for some it's got to be one or the other. It's either "his" fault or the "Rangers" fault. No in between, no nuance. Just this binary perspective that again, is a stretch from reality. The Rangers didn't "ruin" anyone. The Rangers might have facilitated or perpetuated a prospects underdevelopment or performance. But no team fully decides the fate of a player. A large part of that is in the players hands.

But certainly not, "it's all the Rangers fault".

You put Lafreniere at 17-18 year old to Frölunda development system, and he would be the age-class leading scorer in NHL without defensive weaknesses.

But he spoiled himself in QMJHL, playing too easy league for too long. Last year was kind of overaged. Matthews was smart and went to Switzerland. Played against men, and learned already from men. Then you don't have to do all that in NHL, when the quality of compeitition and wear is extremely high. Should have get outta there (QMJHL) at least one season earlier to play against men. Those junior habits went too deep, and it takes double time to get rid of them.

The final product will be fine.

But European development beats Canadian junior from latest 4-5 years, and the gap is growing. NCAA and US system seem to be also better than CHL too. More challenge, more mature environment and more time for skill development, when everything isn't the games.

 

[brakeyawself]

You put Lafreniere at 17-18 year old to Frölunda development system, and he would be the leading scorer in NHL.

But he spoiled himself in QMJHL, playing too easy league for too long. Should have get outta there at least one season earlier to play against men. Those junior habits went too deep, and it takes double time to get rid of them.

The final product will be fine.

But European development beats Canadian junior from latest 4-5 years, and the gap is growing. NCAA and US system seem to be also better than CHL. More challenge and more time for skill development, when everything isn't the games.

Well, I think I mostly agree with you. I definitely think it helps playing against grown men earlier and can put a prospect on the right path, giving them a clearer vision of what they still have to do to improve and so on.

But I am not so certain "he would be the leading scorer in the NHL." From where he stands now, that seems a bit, well, way way too optimistic. I mean, sure, MAYBE he'd be the leading scorer for Frolunda, but even in that I have my doubts.

The final product will be fine.

I wish that were obvious or true, but I don't know that it is. I am glad you are still optimistic about him. But nothing he has done so far would suggest that he's on that trajectory. I am in no way calling him a bust or making any absolute determinations. But can't help seeing what I see watching Ranger games. And can't help realizing these are the sort of lofty expectations and presumptions that should never have taken place from the very beginning.

I think part of that lore or mythology comes from the fact that he came out of the QMJHL and Quebec in general. He was that "next" over-hyped prospect from the birthplace of modern hockey. He was the next "great Quebecois" player. If he were coming out of the WHL or I think even the OHL, I don't believe the hype would have been so ridiculous. And I don't know if it would have been overcharged for numerous years, building up since he was a teen. All of this, something I have seen numerous times over in my lifetime and something that tends to fail more than it succeeds. People were literally comparing him to Mario at times. I don't think I need to explain "why" that was occurring or "why", whenever that happens, it's probably not good for the prospect in question. And I am not suggesting you were comparing him to "Mario" but it sounds like you thought he was at least circling that realm.

And yea, there are real comparisons between him and "Mario", at least a few. But not all of them are positive. Just because Mario wasn't the Flash and made it work, doesn't mean Laf, also being on the slow side, would be able to make it work in a completely altered and faster NHL. And yea, his stickwork, handling etc. are amazing. Again, not sure I would put him at Mario level, but he's a solid A or even A+ in those areas. But his skating is one huge difference. His hockey IQ another. I mean, as I stated before, I wouldn't even put Laf in the same prospect realm as Wright or Bedard. And I don't think either of those guys are necessarily "generational talents" either, but they are far closer than Laf actually ever was. Well, in Wright's case, I would say he's probably the best C prospect to come out SINCE Matthews. But I see him more like John Toews with a bit extra in the offensive department. Which is still a great comparison if it turns out to be true, but not quite up there on that "can't miss" or "generational" tier of players.

Bedard I think might actually have a higher offensive ceiling than Wright, but I don't think he will be the complete player and leader Wright can be. Maybe a bit more risk/reward with Bedard. Plus, I think he's only 5'9". Not a death sentence by any means, but something he might have to "overcome" or at least, something that will be a "concern" of sorts until he proves it's not an issue in his case.

But I think it's fairly clear that both are better prospects than Laf was, yet the hype surrounding Laf was possibly in the same range or in some cases higher. I am only using these two as comparisons of pre-draft hype, potential and expectation.

And his skating, I can't stress this enough. The scouting suggesting he needed to improve his skating was so absolutely accurate, it should have, in today's NHL, been a bigger issue in regards to him as a prospect. Partly because he's not so fast, he will really need to improve on his skating. And IF he does this, then I think he stands a very good chance of actually becoming a top line forward. But watching him play, at least IMO, his skating is one of the variables holding him back at the moment. I really hoped he would follow in the footsteps of other players and work hard with a skating coach all offseason. Like Horvat and other players have done. Because he badly needs it.

 

[Gniwder]

Well, I think I mostly agree with you. I definitely think it helps playing against grown men earlier and can put a prospect on the right path, giving them a clearer vision of what they still have to do to improve and so on.

But I am not so certain "he would be the leading scorer in the NHL." From where he stands now, that seems a bit, well, way way too optimistic. I mean, sure, MAYBE he'd be the leading scorer for Frolunda, but even in that I have my doubts.



I wish that were obvious or true, but I don't know that it is. I am glad you are still optimistic about him. But nothing he has done so far would suggest that he's on that trajectory. I am in no way calling him a bust or making any absolute determinations. But can't help seeing what I see watching Ranger games. And can't help realizing these are the sort of lofty expectations and presumptions that should never have taken place from the very beginning.

I think part of that lore or mythology comes from the fact that he came out of the QMJHL and Quebec in general. He was that "next" over-hyped prospect from the birthplace of modern hockey. He was the next "great Quebecois" player. If he were coming out of the WHL or I think even the OHL, I don't believe the hype would have been so ridiculous. And I don't know if it would have been overcharged for numerous years, building up since he was a teen. All of this, something I have seen numerous times over in my lifetime and something that tends to fail more than it succeeds. People were literally comparing him to Mario at times. I don't think I need to explain "why" that was occurring or "why", whenever that happens, it's probably not good for the prospect in question. And I am not suggesting you were comparing him to "Mario" but it sounds like you thought he was at least circling that realm.

And yea, there are real comparisons between him and "Mario", at least a few. But not all of them are positive. Just because Mario wasn't the Flash and made it work, doesn't mean Laf, also being on the slow side, would be able to make it work in a completely altered and faster NHL. And yea, his stickwork, handling etc. are amazing. Again, not sure I would put him at Mario level, but he's a solid A or even A+ in those areas. But his skating is one huge difference. His hockey IQ another. I mean, as I stated before, I wouldn't even put Laf in the same prospect realm as Wright or Bedard. And I don't think either of those guys are necessarily "generational talents" either, but they are far closer than Laf actually ever was. Well, in Wright's case, I would say he's probably the best C prospect to come out SINCE Matthews. But I see him more like John Toews with a bit extra in the offensive department. Which is still a great comparison if it turns out to be true, but not quite up there on that "can't miss" or "generational" tier of players.

Bedard I think might actually have a higher offensive ceiling than Wright, but I don't think he will be the complete player and leader Wright can be. Maybe a bit more risk/reward with Bedard. Plus, I think he's only 5'9". Not a death sentence by any means, but something he might have to "overcome" or at least, something that will be a "concern" of sorts until he proves it's not an issue in his case.

But I think it's fairly clear that both are better prospects than Laf was, yet the hype surrounding Laf was possibly in the same range or in some cases higher. I am only using these two as comparisons of pre-draft hype, potential and expectation.

And his skating, I can't stress this enough. The scouting suggesting he needed to improve his skating was so absolutely accurate, it should have, in today's NHL, been a bigger issue in regards to him as a prospect. Partly because he's not so fast, he will really need to improve on his skating. And IF he does this, then I think he stands a very good chance of actually becoming a top line forward. But watching him play, at least IMO, his skating is one of the variables holding him back at the moment. I really hoped he would follow in the footsteps of other players and work hard with a skating coach all offseason. Like Horvat and other players have done. Because he badly needs it.

Are you talking about Laf or Zadina, lol.

It's a skater's league for sure. For the most part, Stevie's draft picks skate well, Kenny's picks not so much.

 

[brakeyawself]

Are you talking about Laf or Zadina, lol.

It's a skater's league for sure. For the most part, Stevie's draft picks skate well, Kenny's picks not so much.

Laf..... wby does it also apply to Zadina? Lol. Both have come up so I might have gotten posts crossed. But mostly talking about Laf.

Only really spoke of Zadina in response to the guy who suggested Zadina is SO much better than Kravtsov, based on well, absolutely nothing but the situation regarding his refusal to go to Hartford. Which again, had absolutely nothing to do with lack of talent or a lessened ceiling or potential. Even though, for some reason, many have taken it to mean that, with no evidence what so ever. Krav has played a total of 20 NHL games, scoring 4 points, being brought up in like April. Otherwise, if you we just look at his statistical progress, he's done pretty well in the A and did fairly well in the KHL. The guy might be boom or bust. But my point in regard to Zadina and Kravtsov was that if you felt Zadina was the better prospect/player prior to Kravs call up last season, you probably still feel that way today. And if you thought Krav had a higher ceiling when he got called up last season, which many did and still do, then nothing has really changed to alter that possible outcome aside from a spat within the organization and him for whatever reason, refusing to go to Hartford. There are still tons of teams supposedly interested in him and Rangers still stating they're not just going to trade him for a 2nd round pick basically, looking for a top 6 talent in return. Which means to me, nothing has changed about his perceived potential, just his attitude and situation.

I mean, there are some similarities between Laf and Zadina though. The first being overhyped with unrealistic expectations pre-draft. The other being either written off way too early, as in right here and now, OR, blind optimism just expecting they will work out eventually. I guess either extreme view, tend to be unrealistic, and probably can be applied to a broad group of prospects, including both Laf and Zadina. And objectively, we have no way to know how either will actually turn out as has been said many times, progress and player development is not linear. They could look like skunks for the first 3 years and then in their 4th year, or any random "whenever", something clicks and they take a big leap. So I don't understand any absolute statements regarding what they WILL be, which no one can possibly know atm. We can really only determine what skills they have, a broad range of potential outcomes that they could fall into, or what "could" be someday. And how they look and are playing at the moment, comparative to their own individual history and in relation to other prospects/players and their progression . Objectively at least.