TSN: Ray Ferraro "Nylander isn't playing himself into a long-term contract"

[SprDaVE]

You would have a stronger case if Nylander was playing well, but the more he struggles the less "untouchable" he becomes in management's eyes and the more willing they may be to part with him..

If a significant top 4 Dman becomes available for trade (as they rarely do), and he was needed to be sacrificed it might just happen.. Same holds true for Marner as it could be an either/or situation where the organization keeps only 1 and the other is the necessary evil bait required to address their defense.

The case is still strong even if he's had a tough season. Management aren't that stupid either. In the first 2 months, he was playing very well. He had the best shot attempt ratio of the team and was obviously playing very well despite having no luck scoring. They are as untouchable as it gets and a rough couple weeks won't change that.

If a significant top 4 defenseman is available, we won't trade Marner or Nylander for them anytime soon.

The goal is to add to our current core, not to go sideways with it.

 

[SprDaVE]

i don't appreciate the insult, so please tone it down

For one he won't take a long term with a lower AAV, otherwise he would have signed one already, his agent wanted to use this season to get him into the 7-8m dollar territory

and two, trading him to acquire a proven premier/elite defender is not selling low, if you did a 1 for 1 for a guy who has upside but still unproven like Hanifan then it would be selling low

Insults? What are you talking about? I wasn't even directing a reply to you either. I'm not going to do anything.

For one, he won't have much of a choice. He's a RFA and not producing as well as hoped this season. He's had some great stretches but you don't pay based on just playing great, it's on production. If anything, it's the perfect time to sign him to a longer term deal and get that AAV lower if you can. He's not going to keep struggling. But a bridge contract is more likely considering everything.

And second, sure on paper a 'premier' defenseman would be fair value. Realistically in the real world, it's not that easy. Teams aren't looking at making these kind of trades often and looking at the current options, none seem to make sense. Plenty of time and ways to acquire a defensive player without giving up an elite young forward.

 

[hullsy47]

Insults? What are you talking about? I wasn't even directing a reply to you either. I'm not going to do anything.

For one, he won't have much of a choice. He's a RFA and not producing as well as hoped this season. He's had some great stretches but you don't pay based on just playing great, it's on production. If anything, it's the perfect time to sign him to a longer term deal and get that AAV lower if you can. He's not going to keep struggling. But a bridge contract is more likely considering everything.
id like to hear an unbiased opinion on marner and nylander from other teams perspective ...I bet u cant get as much ,nor I bet they don't get as much as was predicted earlier this year
nylander should get a bit more than brown maybe ...that's it
marner next year if its duplicated gets maybe 4 x 5.5
And second, sure on paper a 'premier' defenseman would be fair value. Realistically in the real world, it's not that easy. Teams aren't looking at making these kind of trades often and looking at the current options, none seem to make sense. Plenty of time and ways to acquire a defensive player without giving up an elite young forward.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

A bridge deal could make sense for both the player and the team. We will see though.

I'd rather lock him up to an 8 year contract with a lower AAV that will look like a steal for the 2nd half

 

[Menzinger]

A bridge deal could make sense for both the player and the team. We will see though.

I'd rather lock him up to an 8 year contract with a lower AAV that will look like a steal for the 2nd half

The way I see it one of three things happen:
A 2 year bridge at around 4.5ish or 5
6 year at 6-6.5
8 year at around 7

I think the Leafs would get burned on a bridge deal in terms of the long term. Ideally both sides come to some sort of reasonable agreeemnt for s longer term deal.

Likely both sides are sitting back to see what his offensive totals look like by seasons end. The Previous bseason Nylander finished at a near ppg pace since the Allstar break and liekly hopes he can replicate that success

Edit: PPG not old lol

 

[therealkoho]

Insults? What are you talking about? I wasn't even directing a reply to you either. I'm not going to do anything.

For one, he won't have much of a choice. He's a RFA and not producing as well as hoped this season. He's had some great stretches but you don't pay based on just playing great, it's on production. If anything, it's the perfect time to sign him to a longer term deal and get that AAV lower if you can. He's not going to keep struggling. But a bridge contract is more likely considering everything.

And second, sure on paper a 'premier' defenseman would be fair value. Realistically in the real world, it's not that easy. Teams aren't looking at making these kind of trades often and looking at the current options, none seem to make sense. Plenty of time and ways to acquire a defensive player without giving up an elite young forward.

Doesn't matter if he's playing out of a long-term contract or not, the idea of trading Nylander just because he's struggling is asinine. Not sure why people think that will happen anytime soon.

He's an elite young player that has had some very unlucky in the first half of the season and now going through what most of the team is going through.

The worst thing you could do is sell low or just lose patience with your top players just because we have a whole on the back end.

I'd easily give him a long-term contract with a lower AAV because I'm very confident about his potential and skillset moving forward. With that said, a bridge contract works too. I don't really care.

that insult

I answered you without any kind of value judgement, i answered you plain and simple, I for one would trade Nylander both because his value is still high and also because of the inconsistent play that shows no signs of going away. Being brilliant for 2 games, so so for two games and then being totally un-engaged with a lack of hustle for 3 games is not what what the Leafs want, I know for sure I don't like it and would eventually hate playing with a guy like that

and another elite puck carrier who can really skate is a lot more important to the teams goals then a guy who only shows up to play hard 4 out of 10 games

 

[Menzinger]

Insults? What are you talking about? I wasn't even directing a reply to you either. I'm not going to do anything.

For one, he won't have much of a choice. He's a RFA and not producing as well as hoped this season. He's had some great stretches but you don't pay based on just playing great, it's on production. If anything, it's the perfect time to sign him to a longer term deal and get that AAV lower if you can. He's not going to keep struggling. But a bridge contract is more likely considering everything.

And second, sure on paper a 'premier' defenseman would be fair value. Realistically in the real world, it's not that easy. Teams aren't looking at making these kind of trades often and looking at the current options, none seem to make sense. Plenty of time and ways to acquire a defensive player without giving up an elite young forward.

That’s the thing, I don’t know how anybody can look at recent trades and think it’s going to be easy (or a smart move) to try and trade Nylander or Marner for a D man. The market is horrribly lopsided towards sellers.

 

[SprDaVE]

that insult

I answered you without any kind of value judgement, i answered you plain and simple, I for one would trade Nylander both because his value is still high and also because of the inconsistent play that shows no signs of going away. Being brilliant for 2 games, so so for two games and then being totally un-engaged with a lack of hustle for 3 games is not what what the Leafs want, I know for sure I don't like it and would eventually hate playing with a guy like that

That's not an insult at all. Essentially means it's silly or foolish. Relax. It wasn't even directed towards you in particular, which makes this even more funny.

Nobody is untouchable in this league outside of a handful of players. With that said, players like Nylander are nearly untouchable because it's rare you'll find his equivalent on defence or whatever you are looking, which is about the only way he's traded.

He's not even a year removed from his World Championship MVP title and from a 61 point rookie season. Even when he couldn't buy a goal he was our best shot attempt player. The whole team is struggling right now. To wish for him to be traded is definitely silly. Young players are inconsistent all the time, you can't get emotional and trade them just because they aren't dominating game in and out, especially as sophomores.

 

[Jozay]

leafs would be foolish to give him a bridge contract. Only way Nylander will get one is if he refuses to sign longterm.

 

[Menzinger]

That's not an insult at all. Essentially means it's silly or foolish. Relax.

Nobody is untouchable in this league outside of a handful of players. With that said, players like Nylander are nearly untouchable because it's rare you'll find his equivalent on defence, which is about the only way he's traded.

He's not even a year removed from his World Championship MVP title and from a 61 point rookie season. Even when he couldn't buy a goal he was our best shot attempt player. The whole team is struggling right now. To wish for him to be traded is definitely silly.

Selling a bluechip like Nylander so early in his career is what stupid management groups do. Is one thing to trade an older guy whose in general middle of his prime, but a sophomore like Nylander (or Marner for that matter) has the ability to skyrocket


I just think it’s funny, as fans we bemoan the lack of homegrown start talent for years. The team finally focuses on that, and all of a sudden we should start playing musical chairs with the young guy and start trading them away.

 

[SprDaVE]

Selling a bluechip like Nylander so early in his career is what stupid management groups do. Is one thing to trade an older guy whose in general middle of his prime, but a sophomore like Nylander (or Marner for that matter) has the ability to skyrocket


I just think it’s funny, as fans we bemoan the lack of homegrown start talent for years. The team finally focuses on that, and all of a sudden we should start playing musical chairs with the young guy and start trading them away.

Pretty much. People moan and cry for a rebuild, to get young elite level talent, but can't wait to trade a young player at a low value just because they aren't destroying players or consistently dominating.

The funny thing about all of this is that Nylander has been more consistent being good than being bad or average since joining the Marlies a few seasons ago... I just don't get it.

 

[diceman934]

The way I see it one of three things happen:
A 2 year bridge at around 4.5ish or 5
6 year at 6-6.5
8 year at around 7

I think the Leafs would get burned on a bridge deal in terms of the long term. Ideally both sides come to some sort of reasonable agreeemnt for s longer term deal.

Likely both sides are sitting back to see what his offensive totals look like by seasons end. The Previous bseason Nylander finished at a near old pace since the Allstar break and liekly hopes he can replicate that success

It is going to be a tough negotiating as his numbers suggest a ceiling of 5.5m per on a long term deal. He may sit a while if he thinks he is getting a 8m per year deal on a long term. Short term is off the table as he becomes a UFA sooner then you think.

 

[Pookie]

The way I see it one of three things happen:
A 2 year bridge at around 4.5ish or 5
6 year at 6-6.5
8 year at around 7

I think the Leafs would get burned on a bridge deal in terms of the long term. Ideally both sides come to some sort of reasonable agreeemnt for s longer term deal.

Likely both sides are sitting back to see what his offensive totals look like by seasons end. The Previous bseason Nylander finished at a near old pace since the Allstar break and liekly hopes he can replicate that success

It’s too bad they have to make decisions so early in a career.

Lots of pluses and minuses to locking up players at these young ages... cripes they can’t even buy beer in the USA and the team has to figure out what they will do over the next 8 years.

They might take a Kadri approach. A $3M-3.5M/season post ELC deal with a “show me” expectation attached to it. Maybe 2 years?

 

[Menzinger]

It’s too bad they have to make decisions so early in a career.

Lots of pluses and minuses to locking up players at these young ages... cripes they can’t even buy beer in the USA and the team has to figure out what they will do over the next 8 years.

They might take a Kadri approach. A $3M-3.5M/season post ELC deal with a “show me” expectation attached to it. Maybe 2 years?

It’s true that a managers job has gotten a lot more complicated with the new salary trends. Younger guys are getting paid bigger money earlier on which forces management to use a lot more guess work in trying to determine a fair salary.

They may very well opt for that 2 year deal option, but I don’t but he signs for a bridge deal that low, he’s already hit 60 points and looks to be hitting over 50 this season. The problem I see with a bridge deal, is if he explodes those years, there goes any hope of locking him up for under 7 million.

 

[Menzinger]

It is going to be a tough negotiating as his numbers suggest a ceiling of 5.5m per on a long term deal. He may sit a while if he thinks he is getting a 8m per year deal on a long term. Short term is off the table as he becomes a UFA sooner then you think.

Well, Bruins likely got Pasta to lower his salary demands by offering him a 6 year deal that took him the quickest path to free agency. Leafs may do that with Nylander, but I’d prefer they find a compromise with another option.

 

[Liferleafer]

Lock up both Nylander and Marner for less....leaves more money for a big D upgrade.

 

[therealkoho]

That's not an insult at all. Essentially means it's silly or foolish. Relax. It wasn't even directed towards you in particular, which makes this even more funny.

Nobody is untouchable in this league outside of a handful of players. With that said, players like Nylander are nearly untouchable because it's rare you'll find his equivalent on defence or whatever you are looking, which is about the only way he's traded.

He's not even a year removed from his World Championship MVP title and from a 61 point rookie season. Even when he couldn't buy a goal he was our best shot attempt player. The whole team is struggling right now. To wish for him to be traded is definitely silly. Young players are inconsistent all the time, you can't get emotional and trade them just because they aren't dominating game in and out, especially as sophomores.

so calling someones opinion or idea is silly/foolish/assinine is a compliment??? good to know

so are you saying that we shouldn't even try to upgrade the team's defence, because I can almost guarantee you there is no way to make a deep run with the D as it's constructed today, and doubly impossible with forwards who give inconsistent performances and questionable efforts. I would be happy if Nylander gave 80% game in and game out...unfortunately there are just too many 50% and below performances in his 150 game career up to now. IMHO he has the same level of talent that Kucherov has, the same HockeyQ, hands and shot, Nylander might even be a better skater, but yet...

Like I said the guy has out of this world talent and ability, it just doesn't seem he has the will to keep pushing that rock uphill like he needs to push it.

 

[Jozay]

The way I see it one of three things happen:
A 2 year bridge at around 4.5ish or 5
6 year at 6-6.5
8 year at around 7

I think the Leafs would get burned on a bridge deal in terms of the long term. Ideally both sides come to some sort of reasonable agreeemnt for s longer term deal.

Likely both sides are sitting back to see what his offensive totals look like by seasons end. The Previous bseason Nylander finished at a near ppg pace since the Allstar break and liekly hopes he can replicate that success

Edit: PPG not old lol

If Nylander stays on this same pace, I cant see him getting more than Ehlers. Results wise, they're pretty similar.

Ehlers got 7 years at 6. Thats the range I expect Nylander and even Marner to get too.

Im with you, its a no brainer that the Leafs should try to get Nylander to sign longterm, with comparable contracts being Ehlers and Pastranak. They'll get burned if he signs a bridge.

 

[Menzinger]

If Nylander stays on this same pace, I cant see him getting more than Ehlers. Results wise, they're pretty similar.

Ehlers got 7 years at 6. Thats the range I expect Nylander and even Marner to get too.

Yeah that seems realsoanble.

 

[SprDaVE]

so calling someones opinion or idea is silly/foolish/assinine is a compliment??? good to know

so are you saying that we shouldn't even try to upgrade the team's defence, because I can almost guarantee you there is no way to make a deep run with the D as it's constructed today, and doubly impossible with forwards who give inconsistent performances and questionable efforts. I would be happy if Nylander gave 80% game in and game out...unfortunately there are just too many 50% and below performances in his 150 game career up to now. IMHO he has the same level of talent that Kucherov has, the same HockeyQ, hands and shot, Nylander might even be a better skater, but yet...

Like I said the guy has out of this world talent and ability, it just doesn't seem he has the will to keep pushing that rock uphill like he needs to push it.

It's not an insult either?

I never said we shouldn't be upgrading our defense. There are plenty of ways of upgrading a position without using an elite young player to make it happen. To essentially give up on him at 21 years old just because we have a hole defensively is definitely being emotional and not being rational.

I don't understand how you can say he doesn't have the will to keep pushing the rock when he's been one of our best forwards for over a year. A bad stretch of 6 or so weeks, where the whole team including Matthews has struggled, is hardly something to judge him on permanently. You're completely ignoring last season or even the first 2 months of the season.

Maybe in the future it'll make sense if let's say Kapanen shows more of a scoring touch in the NHL, or if other prospects rise up, or if we need to allocate cap space to the defensive core. I don't have a crystal ball. I certainly hope it's deemed the last possible option to make something happen in that regard and I don't see how you do this in the near future.

 

[colchar]

The case is still strong even if he's had a tough season. Management aren't that stupid either. In the first 2 months, he was playing very well. He had the best shot attempt ratio of the team and was obviously playing very well despite having no luck scoring. They are as untouchable as it gets and a rough couple weeks won't change that.

With Nyalnder this isn't a rough couple of weeks. Well it is, but there is more to it. He has defensive lapses and at times seems disengaged (offensively and defensively). I noticed it when seeing him live when he was in the playoffs with the Marlies. At the time I was willing to excuse it as either being hurt, or not being 100% due to having recently been sick (if I remember correctly, he had been down with the flu or mono or something like that). But now it is more concerning and less excusable as it seems to have continued.

 

[colchar]

that insult

That isn't an insult. The other poster said an idea was asinine, not that a person was asinine. You cannot insult an idea.

 

[SprDaVE]

With Nyalnder this isn't a rough couple of weeks. Well it is, but there is more to it. He has defensive lapses and at times seems disengaged (offensively and defensively). I noticed it when seeing him live when he was in the playoffs with the Marlies. At the time I was willing to excuse it as either being hurt, or not being 100% due to having recently been sick (if I remember correctly, he had been down with the flu or mono or something like that). But now it is more concerning and less excusable as it seems to have continued.

He's probably never going to be some defensive wizard or high tempo player defensively. And that doesn't mean he should be traded for it necessarily.

Plenty of elite or even just really good players in this league aren't exactly dominating defensively but are still worth a lot because they are very good at pushing the puck up the ice and of course creating a lot of chances offensively.

When he's on the ice, the puck tends to finish in the offensive zone. When he's on the ice, we tend to have shot attempts for than shots against. This to me looks like a player that is efficient at making sure that the puck isn't in our end and that's good to me.

So while he's had some tough luck in the first couple months and he's since sort of struggled recently, just like the whole team, I think it's a lot more likely he'll start to put up points and get back to his form from last season than continue on this path of being sort of uninterested.

 

[Menzinger]

He's probably never going to be some defensive wizard or high tempo player defensively. And that doesn't mean he should be traded for it necessarily.

Plenty of elite or even just really good players in this league aren't exactly dominating defensively but are still worth a lot because they are very good at pushing the puck up the ice and of course creating a lot of chances offensively.

When he's on the ice, the puck tends to finish in the offensive zone. When he's on the ice, we tend to have shot attempts for more than shot against. This to me looks like a player that is efficient at making sure that the puck isn't in our end and that's good to me.

So while he's add some tough luck in the first couple months and he's since sort of struggled recently, just like the whole team, I think it's a lot more likely he'll start to put up points and get back to his form from last season than continue on this path of being sort of uninterested.

Exactly, he’s never going to be a Selke level player, but he’s also only half way through his sophomore season in the NHL. He’s still a developing player.

 

[RadekBong]

Yes, fans are an awesome source of legitimate info and the coldest takes.

It's alllllll a big conspiracy, I know..

I mean the truth is certainly somewhere in the middle. Their are documented instances of players not wanting to play for a Babcock coached team, but that doesn't mean every player feels that way.