Ray Bourque and the Flyers

[The Panther]

The Bourque to Philly trade was a weird situation. A good friend of mine worked for the Flyers at that time and explained everything to me when it was going down, and after Ray eventually went to Colorado.

Bourque had his heart set on Philly for a few reasons:

1. He 100% wanted to stay in on the East Coast, primarily for his kids and family

2. The Flyers were a contender in the East

3. He was very good friends with Rejean Lemelin who was the Flyers Goaltending Coach during that time

The Flyers thought they had a deal for Bourque. The one drawback was that Ray didn't know how much longer he wanted to play and didn't want to commit beyond his current contract with anyone, at the time. The Flyers made a fair offer that included Langkow, Delmore++

Ray was told he was being traded to the Flyers and, ironically, it was the day Boston was in Philly. Bourque joked with Flyers players that he would be walking into their room after the game. The deal was as "done" as it could possible be without the final stamp of approval from the NHL. Sinden was happy with the deal, Ray was thrilled to be coming to Philly, the Flyers players were jacked and Clarke was happy. But, there was one little fly in the ointment...

Avs GM, Pierre Lacroix had been working Sinden for months, behind the scenes. Sinden told Lacroix to "forget about it" because Ray wanted to play on the East Coast and the Bruins were going to honor his request. But Lacroix was relentless - he told Sinden that he would pay more than any other team and that trading Bourque to the East would haunt him. He knew that Sinden didn't "really" want to give Ray his wish, but out of respect he would. Lacroix played on this.

A few weeks before the trade, Lacroix told Sinden that he spoke to a mutual friend that he shared with Bourque and that Ray said he would be open to play for Colorado if that ended up being the place he was traded. [Years later, Lacroix admitted that this was an embellishment and just a way to keep dialogue open with Harry Sinden.]

The day Bourque was traded to the Flyers, Lacroix called Sinden and Sinden told him the deal with Philly was going down. Lacroix begged Siden to reconsider, promising him that Ray would be open to playing for Colorado. Lacroix convinced Sinden to trade him to the Avs, and said that if Bourque resisted, he would nullify the deal silently. Sinden agreed to the trade and before he could even tell Ray he was going to Colorado instead of Philly (like he was originally told) Avs players such as Joe Sakic were already calling Bourque to welcome him to the team. One by one they called and Bourque was sold. Sinden and Lacroix got their way, Ray didn't (at the time), although going to Colorado ended up being the best thing for him at the end of the day... and he loved every minute of it.

The Flyers were left hanging.

The whole, "the Flyers weren't offering anything good" was pure PR spin by Sinden, who needed to publicly "justify" why he didn't grant Bourque his wish of staying on the East Coast. Everyone knew the Flyers would never concede Simon Gagne (who was far better than anyone Colorado was offering) so Sinden threw that name out there to deflect heat off himself. Gagne was never included in discussions - Langkow and Delmore/Eaton, plus a pick was always the genesis of what Sinden wanted in return. The deal was fine, other than Sinden really didn't want Bourque to win a Cup playing for another team in the East.

Here's a addition...

I heard first-hand that when the Flyers players were told that Bourque was NOT coming to the Flyers - after they all thought he was - the team was a little deflated emotionally. This is what bothered Clarke the most, because the deal was "done" and word was trickling down to the players. Even Bourque was chumming it up with the Flyers players he knew, telling them he was going to be their teammate, etc. Later, Clarke was quoted as saying the NHL was a "blood sport" even among GM's who would pull no punches to get a deal they wanted or improve their team. If I recall correctly, he referenced the "Bourque to Philly trade" as well as when he traded Darryl Sittler to Detroit for Murray Craven, right after telling Sittler he was going to be the new captain of the Flyers.

Great post. This reminds me of how the NY Rangers had completed their trade with Quebec for Eric Lindros... and then the NHL told them they'd approved of the Lindros trade to Philly!

 

[jghockey]

I also heard that Sniden wanted goaltender Max Oulette in the deal but Clarke refused.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Didn't the Flyers try real hard to get Chelios the year before, but unlike Bourque, he didn't want to go to the Flyers?

I somewhat remember a locker room interview with Chelios from around that time period where he bashes Dainius Zubrus being the centerpiece in a package for him...

 

[Boxscore]

Didn't the Flyers try real hard to get Chelios the year before, but unlike Bourque, he didn't want to go to the Flyers?

I somewhat remember a locker room interview with Chelios from around that time period where he bashes Dainius Zubrus being the centerpiece in a package for him...

Actually, Chelios didn't want to go to the Wings. He told Chicago, "trade me anywhere, except Detroit" and they traded him there. And, just like with Bourque, once the players started calling him to welcome him, he was sold.

 

[Boxscore]

Great post. This reminds me of how the NY Rangers had completed their trade with Quebec for Eric Lindros... and then the NHL told them they'd approved of the Lindros trade to Philly!

Arbitrator, Larry Bertuzzi had an easy decision on the Lindros trade. He interviewed multiple parties that confirmed the Nords did, in fact, give the Flyers Lindros' phone number to call him to talk contract - which would only happen if a trade was completed. Once Bertuzzi confirmed that... A) Quebec did place this stipulation on any Lindros trade... and, B) Quebec had given Philly the number, and they called and spoke to the Lindros camp... Bertuzzi's decision was slam-dunk easy. The Flyers had already spoken to Lindros, when they were told Quebec also just traded him to the Rangers. At this point, Jay Snider told Neil Smith, "do not announce your trade, we're fighting it, we already have a deal and spoke to Lindros."

The Nords tried playing both sides and lost out that day but probably won long-term, as Forsberg was better than any player the Rangers were offering, including Kovalev.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Actually, Chelios didn't want to go to the Wings. He told Chicago, "trade me anywhere, except Detroit" and they traded him there. And, just like with Bourque, once the players started calling him to welcome him, he was sold.

Actually, Chelios was hoping to get an extension and stay with the Hawks. He was most vocal about not wanting to go to Philly

Chelios: No trade, pleajse Chris Chelios doesn't have$ no-trade clause in his contract with' the Chicago Blackhawks; but he has made it loud and clear that he doesn't want to play for any other team. Especially not the Philadelphia Flyers. Even though Chelios and Blackhawks owner Bill Wirtz reached a handshake agreement a week ago that he would not be traded before his current deal expires in 2000, rumors persist that Flyers General Manager Bob Clarke wants him. ; "I've heard I'm going to Philly for Dainius Zubrus, and I know that's not going to happen," Chelios told reporters in Edmonton. "That's not enough. Maybe if it was for Eric Lindros, I would believe it. I don't want to go anywhere. You should tell Bobby Clarke conference notebook to shut his mouth. Just tell Bobby Clarke to leave me ajone." Chelios, a 37-year-old defenseman and three-time Norris Trophy winner, continues to be angry about comments Clarke made following the U.S. Olympic team's room-trashing in Nagano last year. - "I hope to God it doesn't happen,", Chelios said of a trade to the Flyers. "I've wanted my whole life to play for the Blackhawks, and just because the team has had two bad seasons, it doesn't mean I'm going to throw in the towel. It would be the worst day of my life if that were to happen."

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on February 21, 1999 · Page 52

 

[jghockey]

Didn't the Flyers try real hard to get Chelios the year before, but unlike Bourque, he didn't want to go to the Flyers?

I somewhat remember a locker room interview with Chelios from around that time period where he bashes Dainius Zubrus being the centerpiece in a package for him...

The Blackhawks were willing to trade Chelios to the Flyers in exchange for Daymond Langkow, Simon Gagne, and a first round pick in 1999. Bobby Clarke was reasonable in turning that offer down.

 

[ShelbyZ]

The Blackhawks were willing to trade Chelios to the Flyers in exchange for Daymond Langkow, Simon Gagne, and a first round pick in 1999. Bobby Clarke was reasonable in turning that offer down.

That seems like just a re-hashing of what the Bruins wanted in return for Bourque. A lot steeper than what Chicago ended up taking from Detroit.

I can't find it now, but I know the Hawks had offered Chelios to the Flyers for Zubrus and another player. Maybe Colin Forbes or Karl Dykhuis? I can't remember. A Langkow ask or offer at the time Chelios was on the market seems odd since the Flyers had just picked him up a couple months prior. The major sticking point however was that Chelios had beef with Clarke and didn't want to go to Philly.

 

[jghockey]

The Blackhawks offered Chelios for Zubrus and Chris Gratton earlier in the season if I'm not mistaken.

 

[jghockey]

If the trade between the Flyers and Bruins was a done deal, why didn't Bob Clarke call the NHL to make it official?

 

[Boxscore]

Actually, Chelios was hoping to get an extension and stay with the Hawks. He was most vocal about not wanting to go to Philly



Pittsburgh Post-Gazette from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on February 21, 1999 · Page 52

That's wild. Here an interview with Chelios from Michigan Live, November 9, 2013 where he says he wanted to play for Philly...

Q. How did Detroit, your bitter rival for many years, the team you hated and said you’d never play for, come into the mix?

A. I didn’t know where I was going, I just wanted to get out. Teams that came up were Philly and San Jose. I remember telling Bob Murray I don’t care where I go. At that point I was pretty disappointed, I never wanted to leave Chicago. It worked out again. When they said Detroit, there was no hesitation, even though there was bad blood over the years. Two things – it was a great team and it was close to home. My sister had cancer (Gigi, died in 2000) and it was easy for me to go back and forth if (his family) needed me. I left on good terms with the Wirtz family (Blackhawks owners). They treated me great.’’


Q. Still, it had to be shocking Chicago would trade you to Detroit?

A. Philly, I was looking forward to, thought it was a great team, great ownership. That wouldn’t have bothered me going there. For Detroit to come in the mix at the last minute, the word shock … I just wanted to leave, so as soon as they said Detroit wanted me, I said, yeah, not thinking about the ramifications of being hated there. Then the fact Ulf Samuelsson and Wendel Clark came at the same time (in other trade-deadline deals), they were just as hated as I was, not as much in Detroit, but pretty close, so that helped a little bit.

 

[jghockey]

That's funny considering that Chelios originally said that he did not want to go to Philadelphia and said, "Tell Bobby Clarke to shut up!"

 

[GMR]

That's wild. Here an interview with Chelios from Michigan Live, November 9, 2013 where he says he wanted to play for Philly...

Q. How did Detroit, your bitter rival for many years, the team you hated and said you’d never play for, come into the mix?

A. I didn’t know where I was going, I just wanted to get out. Teams that came up were Philly and San Jose. I remember telling Bob Murray I don’t care where I go. At that point I was pretty disappointed, I never wanted to leave Chicago. It worked out again. When they said Detroit, there was no hesitation, even though there was bad blood over the years. Two things – it was a great team and it was close to home. My sister had cancer (Gigi, died in 2000) and it was easy for me to go back and forth if (his family) needed me. I left on good terms with the Wirtz family (Blackhawks owners). They treated me great.’’


Q. Still, it had to be shocking Chicago would trade you to Detroit?

A. Philly, I was looking forward to, thought it was a great team, great ownership. That wouldn’t have bothered me going there. For Detroit to come in the mix at the last minute, the word shock … I just wanted to leave, so as soon as they said Detroit wanted me, I said, yeah, not thinking about the ramifications of being hated there. Then the fact Ulf Samuelsson and Wendel Clark came at the same time (in other trade-deadline deals), they were just as hated as I was, not as much in Detroit, but pretty close, so that helped a little bit.

Good point by Chelios. The Wings acquired three of the most hated players ever in a short time period that year. I still blame bad karma more than Bill Ranford for that playoff disappointment.

Honestly, I don't think too much thought about Bourque playing for Detroit, but maybe I should. If they acquired him, they'd have four Hall of Famers on the blue line with Lidstrom, Chelios, Bourque, and Murphy. I wonder how many years he'd have stayed in Detroit or whether they'd win the Cup in 2000 or 2001? Would have been interesting for sure.

 

[jghockey]

It ultimately worked out for them. In Summer 2001, they added Hasek, Hull, Robitaille, and Olausson and won the Cup in June 2002.

 

[iamjs]

I also heard that Sniden wanted goaltender Max Oulette in the deal but Clarke refused.

I thought I remembered reading this too, but the NY Daily News said that wasn't the case

The Philadelphia Flyers, who offered a package that included defenseman Mark Eaton and center Daymond Langkow (but not prized goalie prospect Maxime Ouellet), were Bourque's absolute first choice when the veteran defenseman discussed his impending departure with GM Harry Sinden. It was hard to tell who was more disappointed when Colorado won the bid, Bourque or the Flyers.
Detroit was Bourque's second pick. The Avs acquired Fleury, also in the walk year of his deal, from Calgary last February, for Rene Corbet, Wade Belak, and Robyn Regehr. The Flames could not afford to re-sign Fleury, and after losing a seven-game Western Conference final to Dallas, the Avs did not attempt to compete when the Rangers dropped a free agent money bomb ($8 million a year) on him. Lacroix sent yet another package, which included ex-Devil Brian Rolston (sent to Colorado in the Claude Lemieux deal), two prospects, and a first-round draft choice to the Bruins for Bourque. The move doesn't establish Colorado as the favorite in the West, but with defending champion Dallas reeling from injuries, St. Louis relying on a rookie goalie, and Detroit not the same powerhouse it has been the past few seasons, the path to the finals is a little less rocky. Acquiring Bourque would have shored up the Flyers' most vulnerable area, team defense, and would have elevated Philadelphia into elite status in the East, along with the Devils.

SABRES RELOAD FOR RUN GILMOUR AND GRATTON ADD PLAYOFF PUNCH

 

[FanOfFlyers75]

What did the Flyers offer the Bruins in exchange for Ray Bourque? He would have fit well with them.

 

[rfournier103]

I remember this. They had a jersey made for him and everything.

 

[Fenway]

What did the Flyers offer the Bruins in exchange for Ray Bourque? He would have fit well with them.

How Ray Bourque almost ended up on the Flyers

Crazy story straight from #77 himself.

www.hockeyfeed.com

From the HF vault

Ray Bourque and the Flyers

Who were the Flyers offering to the Bruins in exchange for Ray Bourque?

forums.hfboards.com

In the end, it worked out for Ray.

 

[FanOfFlyers75]

In the end, it worked out for Ray.

Not for the Flyers though. They probably should have replaced Langkow with Renberg.

 

[Brodeur]

From the other thread, the Flyers offer was believed to be Daymond Langkow, Sandy McCarthy, a 2000 1st rounder, plus a choice between Mark Eaton (stay at home D) or Andy Delmore (offensive minded D, suspect defensively).

An interesting thing was the timing of the deal relative to when Montreal dealt Vladimir Malakhov. I had thought Malakhov was traded after Bourque and could have been a fall back option for Philadelphia. But Malakhov was traded before Bourque.

Malakhov had become persona non grata in Montreal. He had shown flashes of being a top pairing defender but never did it consistently. He was a pending UFA after the 1999-00 season and missed the start of the season with a knee injury. Then during the All-Star break, he was spotted at a ski resort with his family. Since he was supposed to be rehabbing his knee, this became a thing and he was suspended by the team.



When Malakhov came back, Montreal went on a seven game winning streak which suddenly put them back into the playoff hunt. But then came an infamous HNIC game when the streak ended and the fans vented their frustrations on Malakhov. Malakhov channeled his inner Patrick Roy and egged on the disgruntled home crowd.

As a result, Malakhov would be traded to New Jersey a few days later (a couple weeks before the deadline). Bourque would be traded a week after which left Philadelphia with limited options. The only other 'good' defenseman traded at that deadline was Lyle Odelein who had asked for a trade away from New Jersey due to a long simmering feud with head coach Robbie Ftorek. New Jersey wouldn't have traded Odelein to Philly (he'd end up in Phoenix).



Malakhov was a nice luxury for the Devils during the 2000 run. Lou tried to get him back for the 2004 playoffs but the Rangers weren't about to do New Jersey any favors and ended up trading him to Philadelphia instead. Malakhov played well for the Flyers and helped them knock off New Jersey in the opening round.

Maybe there's a parallel world where Malakhov doesn't go skiing and Montreal hangs onto him closer to the deadline and Philadelphia got him instead?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I always thought that Malakhov was a stealth stud and deserved more accolades than he received. His public perception caused a fair amount of that, of course.

 

[Brodeur]

Not for the Flyers though. They probably should have replaced Langkow with Renberg.

Not sure 2000 Renberg would have been considered an upgrade over Langkow.

For Bourque and Andreychuk, Colorado gave up Brian Rolston, Samuel Pahlsson, Martin Grenier, and a 2000 1st.

When he was traded from New Jersey, Rolston seemed excited since he thought his offensive numbers had been limited with the Devils. Due to the team's depth at LW/C, Rolston was used as a middle six RW. But instead of flanking Sakic or Forsberg in Colorado, Rolston ended up as 3rd line center and struggled with the Avs.

Rolston was only a year removed from a 57 point season, so it seemed a safe bet that he'd be productive if used in an offensive role.

Pahlsson was ranked #23 in The Hockey News' 2000 Future Watch issue. Not sure if the Philadelphia had a comparable prospect to include, maybe goalie Maxime Ouellet (#11 in that Future Watch). Pahlsson's offense didn't materialize in the NHL but he carved out a nice role as a defensive minded #3 center.

 

[quietbruinfan]

What did the Flyers offer the Bruins in exchange for Ray Bourque? He would have fit well with them.

Chris Therrien and a 1st rounder and that was a counteroffer to Gagne. It was a typical insulting offer from Clarke.

 

[quietbruinfan]

The Bourque to Philly trade was a weird situation. A good friend of mine worked for the Flyers at that time and explained everything to me when it was going down, and after Ray eventually went to Colorado.

Bourque had his heart set on Philly for a few reasons:

1. He 100% wanted to stay in on the East Coast, primarily for his kids and family

2. The Flyers were a contender in the East

3. He was very good friends with Rejean Lemelin who was the Flyers Goaltending Coach during that time

The Flyers thought they had a deal for Bourque. The one drawback was that Ray didn't know how much longer he wanted to play and didn't want to commit beyond his current contract with anyone, at the time. The Flyers made a fair offer that included Langkow, Delmore++

Ray was told he was being traded to the Flyers and, ironically, it was the day Boston was in Philly. Bourque joked with Flyers players that he would be walking into their room after the game. The deal was as "done" as it could possible be without the final stamp of approval from the NHL. Sinden was happy with the deal, Ray was thrilled to be coming to Philly, the Flyers players were jacked and Clarke was happy. But, there was one little fly in the ointment...

Avs GM, Pierre Lacroix had been working Sinden for months, behind the scenes. Sinden told Lacroix to "forget about it" because Ray wanted to play on the East Coast and the Bruins were going to honor his request. But Lacroix was relentless - he told Sinden that he would pay more than any other team and that trading Bourque to the East would haunt him. He knew that Sinden didn't "really" want to give Ray his wish, but out of respect he would. Lacroix played on this.

A few weeks before the trade, Lacroix told Sinden that he spoke to a mutual friend that he shared with Bourque and that Ray said he would be open to play for Colorado if that ended up being the place he was traded. [Years later, Lacroix admitted that this was an embellishment and just a way to keep dialogue open with Harry Sinden.]

The day Bourque was traded to the Flyers, Lacroix called Sinden and Sinden told him the deal with Philly was going down. Lacroix begged Siden to reconsider, promising him that Ray would be open to playing for Colorado. Lacroix convinced Sinden to trade him to the Avs, and said that if Bourque resisted, he would nullify the deal silently. Sinden agreed to the trade and before he could even tell Ray he was going to Colorado instead of Philly (like he was originally told) Avs players such as Joe Sakic were already calling Bourque to welcome him to the team. One by one they called and Bourque was sold. Sinden and Lacroix got their way, Ray didn't (at the time), although going to Colorado ended up being the best thing for him at the end of the day... and he loved every minute of it.

The Flyers were left hanging.

The whole, "the Flyers weren't offering anything good" was pure PR spin by Sinden, who needed to publicly "justify" why he didn't grant Bourque his wish of staying on the East Coast. Everyone knew the Flyers would never concede Simon Gagne (who was far better than anyone Colorado was offering) so Sinden threw that name out there to deflect heat off himself. Gagne was never included in discussions - Langkow and Delmore/Eaton, plus a pick was always the genesis of what Sinden wanted in return. The deal was fine, other than Sinden really didn't want Bourque to win a Cup playing for another team in the East.

Here's a addition...

I heard first-hand that when the Flyers players were told that Bourque was NOT coming to the Flyers - after they all thought he was - the team was a little deflated emotionally. This is what bothered Clarke the most, because the deal was "done" and word was trickling down to the players. Even Bourque was chumming it up with the Flyers players he knew, telling them he was going to be their teammate, etc. Later, Clarke was quoted as saying the NHL was a "blood sport" even among GM's who would pull no punches to get a deal they wanted or improve their team. If I recall correctly, he referenced the "Bourque to Philly trade" as well as when he traded Darryl Sittler to Detroit for Murray Craven, right after telling Sittler he was going to be the new captain of the Flyers.

Never heard that always heard it was Chris Therrien and a pick. Langkow was not bad, but Delmore and Eaton stunk....Come on Harry,

 

[Brodeur]

Oral history of the Ray Bourque trade to Avalanche

This Ray Bourque oral history trade story first ran on March 19, 2018 at my old employer, BSN Denver (now DNVR). Even though I did all the work for it, it was/is still their intellectual property, so thank you to DNVR for letting me use it here. In early March of 2000, it was […]

coloradohockeynow.com

Bourque had two conditions for Sinden: He wanted to go to a legitimate Stanley Cup contender, and he wanted to stay relatively close to his home of Boxford, Mass., primarily because he had three teenage children and didn’t want to uproot their school lives. Bourque, and Sinden, thought he would be going to either one of two teams: the New Jersey Devils or the Philadelphia Flyers.

Interesting, I had never heard of the Devils as a possible landing spot. Although quite possible that they couldn't meet the asking price and added Malakhov a few days after Bourque formally requested to be moved.

Devils lineup pre-deadline:

Elias-Arnott-Sykora
Gomez-Morrison-Lemieux
Pandolfo-Holik-McKay
Nemchinov-Madden-Brylin
Oliwa-Pederson

Stevens-Rafalski
Daneyko-Niedermayer
Souray-Odelein
Bombardir
White

Brodeur-Terreri

Devils top prospects in the moment were Ari Ahonen, Mike Van Ryn, Brian Gionta, and Christian Berglund. But Van Ryn was taking the team to arbitration to become a UFA (he won that case) so that would have ruined any trade value that he had.

Lou got Alexander Mogilny (Morrison+Pederson) and Malakhov (Souray+2nd) for roughly the same price that Bourque (and Dave Andreychuk) fetched. Mogilny also was under contract for another season. Lou allegedly was sniffing around Rob Blake at the 2001 trade deadline but was offering a futures deal (David Hale, Ari Ahonen, 2001 1st). But since LA was still in the playoff hunt they wanted NHL players in return which Colorado offered.