Ray Bourque and the Flyers
- Thread starter jghockey
- Start date
Sandy McCarthy, Mark Eaton and/or Andy Delmore and a couple of 1st rounders from what I can remember. Bruins GM Harry Sinden wanted Simon Gagne in the any proposed deal, but Clarke refused to surrender him.
GMR
Registered User
Wow, what an insulting trade that would have been. I know Bourque was 40, but we're talking about an enforcer who was washed up in 2000, a guy who has the same name as the 7'4 center who played for Utah in the 80's, and Andy Delmore, who was a journeyman defenseman only a few years later. I'm guessing Delmore was supposed to be the centerpiece for Boston, as some young defenseman who was the next big thing. It never happened with Delmore of course.
Johnny Engine
Moderator
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If the Bruins were asking for Langkow, then I'm glad the Flyers rejected the offer. Langkow was a big part of that 2000 run.
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Yep. The Flyers and Red Wings were Bourque's top two choices.
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It's an interesting dilemma. Langkow would break out soon after and would eventually be dealt for picks which would help yield Jeff Carter who would yield Jakub Voracek and Sean Couturier.
But the 2000 Flyers with Bourque could have won the Cup. Regardless, Boston preferred Colorado's offer as Brian Rolston was more proven at that point and Sami Pahlsson was getting some hype as a potential #2 center (before eventually into a good defensive center).
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I'm not sure if the Flyers would have won the Cup with Bourque in 2000. They certainly would have gone to the Finals but beating the Stars would have been a very tall order.
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McGarnagle
Yes.
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that proposed Flyers trade would've been brutal. Good thing Harry pressed for Gagne and moved on to Colorado.
That Avs trade turned out to be actually really good in retrospect. Rolston was a great third-liner and PKer for the Bruins. Pahlsson became a hell of a player, though it was in Anaheim because O'Connell gave up on him way too soon. That first rounder they also botched by picking Martin Samuelsson, but the two picks after him and players they could've gotten were Justin Williams and Niklas Kronwall. Grenier didn't end up being anything.
If O'Connell didn't screw things up, their longterm takeaway from Bourque could've been Rolston, Pahlsson, and Williams or Kronwall. That would've been a great pull for a half-season of Ray Bourque.
That Avs trade turned out to be actually really good in retrospect. Rolston was a great third-liner and PKer for the Bruins. Pahlsson became a hell of a player, though it was in Anaheim because O'Connell gave up on him way too soon. That first rounder they also botched by picking Martin Samuelsson, but the two picks after him and players they could've gotten were Justin Williams and Niklas Kronwall. Grenier didn't end up being anything.
If O'Connell didn't screw things up, their longterm takeaway from Bourque could've been Rolston, Pahlsson, and Williams or Kronwall. That would've been a great pull for a half-season of Ray Bourque.
- Jan 22, 2007
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The Bourque to Philly trade was a weird situation. A good friend of mine worked for the Flyers at that time and explained everything to me when it was going down, and after Ray eventually went to Colorado.
Bourque had his heart set on Philly for a few reasons:
1. He 100% wanted to stay in on the East Coast, primarily for his kids and family
2. The Flyers were a contender in the East
3. He was very good friends with Rejean Lemelin who was the Flyers Goaltending Coach during that time
The Flyers thought they had a deal for Bourque. The one drawback was that Ray didn't know how much longer he wanted to play and didn't want to commit beyond his current contract with anyone, at the time. The Flyers made a fair offer that included Langkow, Delmore++
Ray was told he was being traded to the Flyers and, ironically, it was the day Boston was in Philly. Bourque joked with Flyers players that he would be walking into their room after the game. The deal was as "done" as it could possible be without the final stamp of approval from the NHL. Sinden was happy with the deal, Ray was thrilled to be coming to Philly, the Flyers players were jacked and Clarke was happy. But, there was one little fly in the ointment...
Avs GM, Pierre Lacroix had been working Sinden for months, behind the scenes. Sinden told Lacroix to "forget about it" because Ray wanted to play on the East Coast and the Bruins were going to honor his request. But Lacroix was relentless - he told Sinden that he would pay more than any other team and that trading Bourque to the East would haunt him. He knew that Sinden didn't "really" want to give Ray his wish, but out of respect he would. Lacroix played on this.
A few weeks before the trade, Lacroix told Sinden that he spoke to a mutual friend that he shared with Bourque and that Ray said he would be open to play for Colorado if that ended up being the place he was traded. [Years later, Lacroix admitted that this was an embellishment and just a way to keep dialogue open with Harry Sinden.]
The day Bourque was traded to the Flyers, Lacroix called Sinden and Sinden told him the deal with Philly was going down. Lacroix begged Siden to reconsider, promising him that Ray would be open to playing for Colorado. Lacroix convinced Sinden to trade him to the Avs, and said that if Bourque resisted, he would nullify the deal silently. Sinden agreed to the trade and before he could even tell Ray he was going to Colorado instead of Philly (like he was originally told) Avs players such as Joe Sakic were already calling Bourque to welcome him to the team. One by one they called and Bourque was sold. Sinden and Lacroix got their way, Ray didn't (at the time), although going to Colorado ended up being the best thing for him at the end of the day... and he loved every minute of it.
The Flyers were left hanging.
The whole, "the Flyers weren't offering anything good" was pure PR spin by Sinden, who needed to publicly "justify" why he didn't grant Bourque his wish of staying on the East Coast. Everyone knew the Flyers would never concede Simon Gagne (who was far better than anyone Colorado was offering) so Sinden threw that name out there to deflect heat off himself. Gagne was never included in discussions - Langkow and Delmore/Eaton, plus a pick was always the genesis of what Sinden wanted in return. The deal was fine, other than Sinden really didn't want Bourque to win a Cup playing for another team in the East.
Here's a addition...
I heard first-hand that when the Flyers players were told that Bourque was NOT coming to the Flyers - after they all thought he was - the team was a little deflated emotionally. This is what bothered Clarke the most, because the deal was "done" and word was trickling down to the players. Even Bourque was chumming it up with the Flyers players he knew, telling them he was going to be their teammate, etc. Later, Clarke was quoted as saying the NHL was a "blood sport" even among GM's who would pull no punches to get a deal they wanted or improve their team. If I recall correctly, he referenced the "Bourque to Philly trade" as well as when he traded Darryl Sittler to Detroit for Murray Craven, right after telling Sittler he was going to be the new captain of the Flyers.
Bourque had his heart set on Philly for a few reasons:
1. He 100% wanted to stay in on the East Coast, primarily for his kids and family
2. The Flyers were a contender in the East
3. He was very good friends with Rejean Lemelin who was the Flyers Goaltending Coach during that time
The Flyers thought they had a deal for Bourque. The one drawback was that Ray didn't know how much longer he wanted to play and didn't want to commit beyond his current contract with anyone, at the time. The Flyers made a fair offer that included Langkow, Delmore++
Ray was told he was being traded to the Flyers and, ironically, it was the day Boston was in Philly. Bourque joked with Flyers players that he would be walking into their room after the game. The deal was as "done" as it could possible be without the final stamp of approval from the NHL. Sinden was happy with the deal, Ray was thrilled to be coming to Philly, the Flyers players were jacked and Clarke was happy. But, there was one little fly in the ointment...
Avs GM, Pierre Lacroix had been working Sinden for months, behind the scenes. Sinden told Lacroix to "forget about it" because Ray wanted to play on the East Coast and the Bruins were going to honor his request. But Lacroix was relentless - he told Sinden that he would pay more than any other team and that trading Bourque to the East would haunt him. He knew that Sinden didn't "really" want to give Ray his wish, but out of respect he would. Lacroix played on this.
A few weeks before the trade, Lacroix told Sinden that he spoke to a mutual friend that he shared with Bourque and that Ray said he would be open to play for Colorado if that ended up being the place he was traded. [Years later, Lacroix admitted that this was an embellishment and just a way to keep dialogue open with Harry Sinden.]
The day Bourque was traded to the Flyers, Lacroix called Sinden and Sinden told him the deal with Philly was going down. Lacroix begged Siden to reconsider, promising him that Ray would be open to playing for Colorado. Lacroix convinced Sinden to trade him to the Avs, and said that if Bourque resisted, he would nullify the deal silently. Sinden agreed to the trade and before he could even tell Ray he was going to Colorado instead of Philly (like he was originally told) Avs players such as Joe Sakic were already calling Bourque to welcome him to the team. One by one they called and Bourque was sold. Sinden and Lacroix got their way, Ray didn't (at the time), although going to Colorado ended up being the best thing for him at the end of the day... and he loved every minute of it.
The Flyers were left hanging.
The whole, "the Flyers weren't offering anything good" was pure PR spin by Sinden, who needed to publicly "justify" why he didn't grant Bourque his wish of staying on the East Coast. Everyone knew the Flyers would never concede Simon Gagne (who was far better than anyone Colorado was offering) so Sinden threw that name out there to deflect heat off himself. Gagne was never included in discussions - Langkow and Delmore/Eaton, plus a pick was always the genesis of what Sinden wanted in return. The deal was fine, other than Sinden really didn't want Bourque to win a Cup playing for another team in the East.
Here's a addition...
I heard first-hand that when the Flyers players were told that Bourque was NOT coming to the Flyers - after they all thought he was - the team was a little deflated emotionally. This is what bothered Clarke the most, because the deal was "done" and word was trickling down to the players. Even Bourque was chumming it up with the Flyers players he knew, telling them he was going to be their teammate, etc. Later, Clarke was quoted as saying the NHL was a "blood sport" even among GM's who would pull no punches to get a deal they wanted or improve their team. If I recall correctly, he referenced the "Bourque to Philly trade" as well as when he traded Darryl Sittler to Detroit for Murray Craven, right after telling Sittler he was going to be the new captain of the Flyers.
Trading Langkow to the Bruins would have sucked and would have left the Flyers depleted at center.
At the time of the trade, I think I would have preferred the younger Langkow over Rolston.
- Jan 22, 2007
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Knowing Clarke, he had to a plan B to acquire some center depth to replace Langkow.
As long as that replacement would have brought skill and speed to the team, then Langkow for Bourque would have been justified.
At the time, the Bruins had a 24 year old Jason Allison and a 20 year old Joe Thornton hitting their strides at center, so it might have made more sense for Boston to add a wing like Rolston than another center in Langkow (albeit Allison wouldn't last much longer in Boston).
Could Langkow possibly have been converted to a winger? Many times, teams with lots of good centers will convert one into a winger.
Michael Farkas
Grace Personified
Rolston played all forward position as I recall...so maybe they liked that flexibility over having to convert Langkow...
Also, maybe minor given where Boston was at the time, but Langkow had played in one playoff series at that point...Rolston had won a Stanley Cup with NJ...
Also, maybe minor given where Boston was at the time, but Langkow had played in one playoff series at that point...Rolston had won a Stanley Cup with NJ...
McGarnagle
Yes.
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Rolston definitely played center in Boston though, most of the time centering PJ Axelsson and Marty Lapointe on the checking line.
Maybe I just hadn't seen enough of Langkow, but on paper I don't think the Philly package would've been a good trade for the Bruins.
Maybe I just hadn't seen enough of Langkow, but on paper I don't think the Philly package would've been a good trade for the Bruins.
The Macho King
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I know this isn't strictly on topic, but damn Gagne is one of those players who I always expected to end up being a big star and just never quite got there.
FerrisRox
"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
Should the Bourque trade have happened, the Flyers were set to re-acquire Mike Sillinger. They almost added him anyway but instead went with Kent Manderville.
tony d
Registered User
Got to think if the Flyers added Bourque in 2000 they win the Cup that yr. Bourque/Stevens in the East final in 2000 would have been fun.
With Bourque, the Flyers certainly would have gone to the Cup Final. But I don't think they would have beaten the Stars.
