Rant of the day...

[buce]

You say that the 3-4 owners that drove the prices up are idiots. That is a damn lie. It's the other 25-26 owners that stood by as their teams weren't successful. Again I ask this question: If the owners are so united, why not just let the big market teams know that it is unfair, and according to the pro-owner philosophy, the would stop their spending.

These so called small-market teams can exist, they just need to be run much better, not just relying on the miracle runs to exist. The marketing is awful, and so is the on-ice product. It is the owners fault it got this way, and the players should not have to pay.


In other sports, there is a luxury tax. The only one with the hard cap is the NFL, but they have their issues and differences also. Firstly, they have TV contracts in the billions, something the NHL doesn't have. And they can just cut their players at will

Are you kidding me? Please tell me that this is some sort of a joke. Let's go through your points:

1. Under existing laws, your first point would be called collusion, which is illegal. The owners can't get together set a price ceiling. The only way around that is to have a ratified CBA with the players association.

2. The small market teams need to be run better? Improve marketing? On-Ice product. Good Lord. Edmonton runs their great. What is improved marketing going to do for them. The sell out almost every game. They have an exciting team. The small market teams are not the problem, it's teams like the Rangers signing stiffs like HOlik for 9 million and then the rest of the playing using that salary as a benchmark.

3. Yes the NFL has a hard cap that does work. does it work because of the tv contracts. No! The cap is set based on revenues. The more TV revenue, the higher the cap can be. The cap system is not about just lowering salaries to save money. The cap is about creating a level playing field for every team.

 

[SENSible1*]

Go ahead and fire them. You'll still have to pay them.

Precisely why it is disingenuous for players to claim they want a free market system.

 

[rwilson99]

Precisely why it is disingenuous for players to claim they want a free market system.

Because their Union engages in collussion and price fixing activities that run counter to a free market system.

 

[The Maltais Falcon]

Why A Salary Cap Will Not Guarantee Profits For Owners

Copied and pasted from a post I made a while back. This is the post that started the thread, which turned into a pretty good discussion.

Executive Summary: A salary cap only controls a portion of a team's costs, not all of them. Thus, a cap cannot guarantee profits. It will improve the chance of profitability, but it is not an idiot proof system.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=123277

There seems to be this misconception on the part of many posters that a salary cap will be some sort of "Idiot Proof" system that will mathematically ensure the owners will make a profit no matter what. This would be true if players' salaries were the only cost the owners had. If team staff donated their labor for free, practice facilities gave away their ice time, arenas leased their buildings for free, airlines donated their flights for free, hotels donated their rooms for free, and media outlets gave away their advertising then a cap might guarantee profitability for owners. Unfortunately, none of these things happen. Operating costs are substantial and they cannot be linked to revenue the way salaries can. They should more or less stay fixed and even rise slightly over the years with inflation.

According to the Levitt report (if you feel the report is bogus, humor me - the numbers may not be right but the principles remain), league revenues in 2003 were $1.996 billion. Player salaries were $1.494 billion and operating costs were $775 million. This lead to a $273 million loss for the league. Assuming a 54% salary cap is put into place and revenues and operating costs stay the same, player salaries will be $1.078 billion and the owners will see a profit of $143 million (8.5% of revenues.)

Since operating costs are fixed, revenues will need to be at least $1.685 billion for the league to break even. If revenues dip below this point, it won't matter that player salaries are a fixed percentage of revenue - operating costs will tip the league into the red again. If the nightmare scenario that many predict occurs where revenues are cut in half to $998 million, the league will lose $316 million (31.66% of revenues.) Owners will be worse off than they were last year. Players will too.

To make a long story short, a salary cap doesn't guarantee anything other than a fixed relationship between player salaries and revenues. It is not an idiot-proof system and it definitely won't guarantee the owners turn a profit, so let's just nip that myth in the bud and put it out to the pasture where it belongs.

 

[loudi94]

The player salaries could stay low if the owners could curb the spending. Why should the players accept a hard cap that can help police the owners?

The owners should be able to police themselves.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL/2005/01/28/913012.html

" The moral of the story, then as it is now, is sooner or later players always get what they want and salaries always skyrocket in a free market system."

 

[chiavsfan]

Actually I started as a Blackhawks fan...but as a fan, I was never treated like one...so I moved on, and became an Avs fan. What's funny is, the one game I went to at the United Center last year...there were more fans FROM COLORADO, than there were from Chicago. A sad showing of what Chicago Hockey has become...not to mention that the average attendence of the AHL Wolves, was higher than the Hawks last year

 

[Toonces]

While I tend to agree with you that there should be an "official" announced deadline, I have always beleived that no date will ever be announced. We're only going to know once it passes.

 

[rwilson99]

The player salaries could stay low if the owners could curb the spending. Why should the players accept a hard cap that can help police the owners?

The owners should be able to police themselves.

1.2 million to 1.8 million seems like a lot, sure. But what happens if you sign that contract, the team goes over the hard cap, and then your contract is voided? You don't get paid. The players want job security for not just themselves, but the future of the game. That's not greed, it's smarts.

Some people are just dumb as rocks.

The owners cannot police themselves outside the parameters of a CBA.

There is no proposal that includes the voiding of contracts in the event a team goes over the cap.

The players no linkage stance will destroy the NHL. They won't have to worry about job security if there are no jobs

 

[GKJ]

The problem is the drop dead date has already passed, in reality. here is what is stopping Bettman from announcing a drop drad date or even cancelling the season. Everyone one on earth will know that whatever Bettman does, even if this lockout for a whole season makes hockey the biggest sport in the world (not bloody likely), he will always be the first one who cancelled a whole season. Much like how Bud Selig was the first one to cancel a World Series. Bettman can say what he wants, he'll do everything in his power to not do this. Even if the whole season is cancelled, there doesn't have to be a press conference, we could just keep going in limbo like this.

 

[rekrul]

The NHL from what I see is a lot more than a wasted season, its probably dead, at least where I live. All the prospects I have followed like Chechoo and Hannan that finaly made it and Bernier and Michalek who I still see a ton of potential, GONE.

all gone.

tee shirts, jerseys, bumper stickers and licence plate holders proclaiming themselves shark fans... all gone.

the reasons have been said a million times over (it doesn't matter now really does it) the greed and pride is more important than what we want as fans. So like that Dr Seuss story, the two stubbon lax one going north and one going south and the rest of the world just built around them, well thats exactly whats going to happen. well have sports and entertainment and even hockey, but not the NHL at least not the NHL i remember of Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman ect...

But whatr really socks me in the gut was my kids now 4 and 3 will probably never get to root for daddys team, I can't take them to games, they can't watch on tv when i get pure silly when they score a big goal ( we had a lot of fun in the last playoff run). sure I get them to the rink ( and perhaps thats better than sitting around ) and we will skate together but it really bites that I'm going to talk about the NHL like as a history and not a now thing.

at least thats the way it looks in this am, and I'm pretty sure that Greednow and Fartman probaly couldn't give a fig sitting on thier war chests of dough.

 

[Chili]

The damage that the lockout has caused is already considerable.

Just talking to people here who have followed the game forever, including Sens season ticketholders, so many are saying 'who cares if they comeback?'.

The Superbowl is next week and what better way to try to start repairing the damage then to come to an agreement and start the season shortly thereafter?

I'm not advocating that anyone should rush into a bad agreement. But the saddest part is that the two sides waited to the eleventh hour to have any serious talks. The recent talks should have happened last summer.

Once things are up and running again, it will be interesting to see the attendance figures and tv ratings (which were already below dismal). And just how much their combined procrastination has cost them.

 

[Nordik_19]

Here's an e-mail I just sent to the NHLPA !

If you are so sure that all the players would never play under a cap why don't you proceed to a vote and let them speak for themself? If then 99% of the players are against the cap then okay it's clearly a message that the player are determined never to play under a cap but if otherwise... All the players of the nhl they can't all play in europe and steal everyone's job and destroy other league's of hockey. There are third and fourth liners who are playing their carreer this year and you know that but are you really willing to joepardize people carreer and more than that fan's love in the game? If you are really sticking to your there's a cap We'll never play under a cap then maybe you can live in your dream world of all the players of the world go all play in europe there's good money there and people all await your presence ! It's an utopia i'm sorry to say that but get real ! Get a deal done by this weekend !

Sincerely yours !

 

[GKJ]

Here's an e-mail I just sent to the NHLPA !

If you are so sure that all the players would never play under a cap why don't you proceed to a vote and let them speak for themself? If then 99% of the players are against the cap then okay it's clearly a message that the player are determined never to play under a cap but if otherwise... All the players of the nhl they can't all play in europe and steal everyone's job and destroy other league's of hockey. There are third and fourth liners who are playing their carreer this year and you know that but are you really willing to joepardize people carreer and more than that fan's love in the game? If you are really sticking to your there's a cap We'll never play under a cap then maybe you can live in your dream world of all the players of the world go all play in europe there's good money there and people all await your presence ! It's an utopia i'm sorry to say that but get real ! Get a deal done by this weekend !

Sincerely yours !

You want me to tell you what they do with the emails fans send them?

 

[dougd]

want to hear WHY making an average salary of $1.3 mill, without any kind of post-secondary education


Can't see this as a true statement as hockey education states :

From the very SECOND a player dons the blades as a kid, he is taught that the main objective is to put the puck in between the two POSTS.

Actually the original statement/poster is bang-on.
Yea,yea, the avge NHL career is only so many years and some will argue that these players should get as much as they should. Well, some players are definitely smarter than others. College education entirely free, make <26-28> ( based on new1.3M/yr projected avge.) times more per year than the avge wage earner, ALL expenses paid while away from home, some expenses even paid while @ home,incredible insurance payouts if career ends prematurely, a decent paying job to fall back on if career very short ( Colege degree), and even if career lengthy, I would guess a pretty decent job waiting once again a result of a college degree, regardless if degree/association has not been applied for 10-15 yrs.
Then again, beer salesman jobs and car & truck sales positions are usually plentiful and are reserved for these high and almighty elevated human admired gods. Of course, this applies to the other sports athletes as well.
Jealous?? Perhaps a little but only because the wrong people of this world get absurd rewards for the absolute lack of value they bring to this world.
You want value, how about a nursing home attendant changing/cleaning a incontenent person incapable of looking after themselves anymore.
How about a volunteer meal on wheels driver? Many other such like positions and acts of humanity which to me are worth more than what athletes give to our worlds.
Yes they are athletes who supply us with entertainment which allows a much needed release from every day rigors, but the pay they receive and EXPECT is way beyond the value they give.

 

[hb74147]

The problem is the drop dead date has already passed, in reality. here is what is stopping Bettman from announcing a drop drad date or even cancelling the season. Everyone one on earth will know that whatever Bettman does, even if this lockout for a whole season makes hockey the biggest sport in the world (not bloody likely), he will always be the first one who cancelled a whole season. Much like how Bud Selig was the first one to cancel a World Series. Bettman can say what he wants, he'll do everything in his power to not do this. Even if the whole season is cancelled, there doesn't have to be a press conference, we could just keep going in limbo like this.

Bettman hasn't announced yet because his speech-writers can't come up with a credible spin to convince anyone that this league isn't on the road to destruction - I still place most of the blame of the PA though

 

[GKJ]

Bettman hasn't announced yet because his speech-writers can't come up with a credible spin to convince anyone that this league isn't on the road to destruction - I still place most of the blame of the PA though

The blame is on the PA as much as it is on the owners.

 

[Chili]

Does it matter anymore who is at fault?

When you factor in the quality of the game on the ice before the lockout (or lack thereof), it's a huge mess. And I don't have alot of faith in the principal players involved right now of coming up with workable solutions.

 

[free0717]

The Players are a bunch of Dumb **ses.

The Owners are united and not going to cave.

Players, just give it up, your going to have a cap. Right now once you give in to the Idea of a cap, the owners will give into a higher percentage, better arbitration rights and lower FA age if you save the season. Lose the season and you will be back at this point again next season. And guess what, You have lost 1-1/2 seasons of paychecks you will never make up. So Players, stop being stupid and just give in to the Cap.

 

[MagnusJondus]

I am an owners supporter, but is anyone else troubled by the fact the NHL wont agree to more significant revenue sharing? This would raise cap levels and would raise the salary floor as well.


Problem is, the big market teams don't want it I'm sure. The money would come from their pockets. If the NHL agrees to share more revenue (as in the 24% rollback proposal by the PA where they proposed three levels of sharing and asked the NHL to pick one. I'm talking about the greastest level here) could a deal be reached?

Stand up to the large market teams and get the eight votes needed to put significant revenue sharing in the next proposal. Get your own side straight and attack issues internally before trying to bargain them with the PA.

 

[djhn579]

I am an owners supporter, but is anyone else troubled by the fact the NHL wont agree to more significant revenue sharing? This would raise cap levels and would raise the salary floor as well.


Problem is, the big market teams don't want it I'm sure. The money would come from their pockets. If the NHL agrees to share more revenue (as in the 24% rollback proposal by the PA where they proposed three levels of sharing and asked the NHL to pick one. I'm talking about the greastest level here) could a deal be reached?

Stand up to the large market teams and get the eight votes needed to put significant revenue sharing in the next proposal. Get your own side straight and attack issues internally before trying to bargain them with the PA.

I support the owners, and I also agree that their should be more revenue sharing, it does take two teams to have a game. But, they are agreeing to give the players ~54% of all league revenue. Sharing more revenue is not going to change that percentage. 54% of $2.1B is going to be $1.134B no matter how the owners share the money among themselves.

Sharing more revenue will make it easier for small market teams to make a profit. This would be a good thing for the small market teams, but for the NHLPA, it won't increase what they will recieve.

 

[Wetcoaster]

I just want to hear an intelligent repsonse - wait, just A response wil suffice - as to WHY these clowns will not accept a cap!

AND...

... I want to hear WHY making an average salary of $1.3 mill, without any kind of post-secondary education - is such a bad salary to take. Some of the most educated minds on the globe don't nearly make that amount.

AND...

... that if the players want a free-market system, one where they get paid what they're worth, then the union needs to be abandoned. You CANNOT have a purely free-market system WITH a union. It just does not work that way.

I'm thinking of more...

The union has never claimed they want a free market system. Goodenow is clear this is not a free market system and is the most restricted market system in pro sports. On that both he and Bettman agree.

The reason for rejecting a cap is quite simple. You are talking about tying salaries to a percentage of revenue and the players do not trust the owners figures and given the history they have no reason to do so. No trust = no cap.

 

[Wetcoaster]

If you're referencing the to the fact that the NHL does not want revenue sharing like so many other PA-propoganda lovers do. Then you won't realize that the NHL does want revenue sharing and has proposed over 30 different models of revenue sharing, and that they want to come to a conclusion working hand and hand with the NHLPA to pick the best system that benefits the league.

http://nhlcbanews.com/news/comparison.html

Then why did Brian Burke claim on Thursday evening that the owners have made no substantive revenue sharing proposal?
www.CKNW.com - go to "Audio Archives" "Thursday Jan 27, 2005" at "10 pm" and go forward to 10:15pm

Answer - all concept and no detail.

Significant revenue sharing for the NHL is going from 9% to 13%. The NHLPA wants to see NFL like percentages (65-70%) for revenue sharing to level the ice rink.

 

[Paxon]

Yes they are athletes who supply us with entertainment which allows a much needed release from every day rigors, but the pay they receive and EXPECT is way beyond the value they give.

Discounting the fact the NHL is reportedly losing money, athletes get paid the money they generate. Ticket sales, jersey sales, you name it. Would you rather this money just go to owners and executives instead? There's no way in hell it is going to someone who works for Meals on Wheels.

Nursing home workers don't generate very much money and as such they don't get paid as much money. What they do requires no real skills or education. My mom got paid squat to work at a county nursing home where she permanently injured her back. She now gets even less squat in compensation and I'm not about to say she should have been paid much more. I certainly wouldn't use her as an excuse to pay athletes less than their fair share of the profits they generate.

 

[Whakahere]

Discounting the fact the NHL is reportedly losing money, athletes get paid the money they generate. Ticket sales, jersey sales, you name it. Would you rather this money just go to owners and executives instead? There's no way in hell it is going to someone who works for Meals on Wheels.

Nursing home workers don't generate very much money and as such they don't get paid as much money. What they do requires no real skills or education. My mom got paid squat to work at a county nursing home where she permanently injured her back. She now gets even less squat in compensation and I'm not about to say she should have been paid much more. I certainly wouldn't use her as an excuse to pay athletes less than their fair share of the profits they generate.

They get paid millions because the money is there. Full Ficking stop. Reason most of us don't get the money is because it just isn't there. Being a teacher you could say that I make each child that I teach millions ... but sadly I don't get paid millions (I flipping wish).

I am sick of this bloody lockout. Players wanting more money than is there just drives me up the wall. Owners wanting more money (large markets) is just plain sick.

I have had it with NHL hockey right now. I am going to support my local team and give the big middle finger to the money grabbing player/owners. I hope the sport is destroyed in America. That will teach everyone that fans do have more power than they think.

edit : post number 100!!

 

[Hockeyfan_86]

I want to look Bob Goodenow straight in the eye and I want to tell him what a. . .
Cheap, lying, no good, rotten, fore flushing, low life, snake licking, dirt eating inbred, over stuffed, ignorant, blood sucking, dog kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat ass, bug eyed, stiff legged spotted less, worm headed, sack of monkey **** he is. Hallelujah! Holy ****
Where’s the Tylenol?