Ranking the Best Non-HHOF Goaltenders

Neutrinos

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Kiprusoff is another who should be dominating this thread

Vezina finishes of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 8th, 8th

He was arguably the best goalie in the world at one point during his career
 

Neutrinos

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Liut
Barrasso
Vanbiesbrouck
Joseph
Kiprusoff
Nabokov

You can argue among yourselves what order they should be in

I left Luongo out because he's not yet eligible for the Hall
 

The Pale King

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Based on his Vezina record, Nabokov's name should be littered throughout this thread

2nd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th

For comparison sake, here's Ryan Miller's Vezina record:

1st, 6th

I agree. My initial OP had a bunch of guys Vezina records (Nabokov's included) in it but it got to be too long and I didn't want to lead things off with a tome. He was a workhorse too, playing at least 40 games for 12 straight seasons between 2000-01 and 2013-2014, averaging 56 a year.
 

NHL WAR

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Nope. He's not.


Care to elaborate? Most shutouts and lowest Goals Against Average of any eligible goalie not in the Hall. 1.51 GAA in 37 playoff games. 2 Cups. I guess you could make the case that he isnt a HOFer because Hainsworth, Connell, Tiny Thompson and Charlie Gardiner already represent that era. But how can you say he isn't near the top goaltenders outside the Hall when he has such comparable numbers to those legends?
 
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The Panther

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I think Kiprusoff has a very strong case. The issues with him are, he didn't become a winning goaltender of particular note (in the NHL) until he was 27, so his prime years weren't the longest on record. But that whole period from 2003-04 to 2011-12 (2012-13 they went back into the crapper), the Flames had a very competitive club -- 1 win from the Cup in '04 -- and basically had only two above-average NHL players, one of whom was Kipper. So, in the sense that he was usually the co-best player on his team, over a nine-year (eight season) period, is a strong case for Hall of Fame induction, I think.

I dunno, I feel like Beezer and Barrasso and Liut and Moog were rarely the best players on their teams (Beezer being an exception for a couple years with Florida, and Liut in 1981). So, I think Kiprusoff carried a heavier burden for his team, and he seemed more consistent. He was playing nearly all the games for Calgary from 2005 to 2012. And there were a lot of times, even during their primes, when Beezer, Barrasso, Liut and Moog looked very bad in big moments (Liut at '81 Canada Cup Final and the NHL season that followed; Moog in the '90 Finals and the first round in'97, for example). Obviously Kiprusoff, like any goalie, had his bad moments in his prime years, too, but I feel he was a lot more consistent, without the dramatic highs and lows -- though, admittedly, that may in part be due to the lower-scoring era he played in.

I feel much the same about Curtis Joseph as about Kiprusoff, but maybe his moving around to different teams a lot in his prime looks a little less attractive. But I think he and Kiprusoff occupy vaguely similar ground, in that they often had to carry teams and were more consistent than those other guys.

Tim Thomas is such a unique case because he became a notable NHL-er so late, and then suddenly had two seasons (out of three) that rank among the greatest-ever for any player in his era... then, one year later was gone from Boston and became unnoticed and soon retired. It's a weird career curve. Based on peak level, he's up with there Roy and Sawchuk, but based on career achievements, consistency, longevity, etc., he's not even a major NHL figure. It's a strange one.

I am in the Marc-Andre Fleury camp, as I think he's great. Is he a Hall of Famer...? That's another question. He's closer to the "Beezer and Barrasso and Liut and Moog" school, with the high peaks and some notably disappointing lows. These last two years with Vegas have certainly helped his case, though. But five trips to the Finals (albeit one riding the bench all playoffs) is nothing to sneeze at in today's era.
 
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seventieslord

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Care to elaborate? Most shutouts and lowest Goals Against Average of any eligible goalie not in the Hall. 1.51 GAA in 37 playoff games. 2 Cups. I guess you could make the case that he isnt a HOFer because Hainsworth, Connell, Tiny Thompson and Charlie Gardiner already represent that era. But how can you say he isn't near the top goaltenders outside the Hall when he has such comparable numbers to those legends?

Because we have detailed voting records for the Hart and Allstar teams during his era and aside from one first team bid, he really wasn't ever on the radar for the best in the league. That's why he was never seriously considered in our top 40 goalies project a few years back. In the end, 8 retired and eligible goalies made that list, minus Vachon, who's now in, plus Luongo, who's retired and may not make it. Alex Connell, a superior contemporary who's in the hall, barely made it.

He had family members for decades trying to get him in based on a superficial case like the one you made, but you know as well as I do that we can't just compare career GAA and shutout totals when the playing style of the era usually has more to do with those things than the goalies themselves.
 

NHL WAR

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Because we have detailed voting records for the Hart and Allstar teams during his era and aside from one first team bid, he really wasn't ever on the radar for the best in the league. That's why he was never seriously considered in our top 40 goalies project a few years back. In the end, 8 retired and eligible goalies made that list, minus Vachon, who's now in, plus Luongo, who's retired and may not make it. Alex Connell, a superior contemporary who's in the hall, barely made it.

He had family members for decades trying to get him in based on a superficial case like the one you made, but you know as well as I do that we can't just compare career GAA and shutout totals when the playing style of the era usually has more to do with those things than the goalies themselves.

Fair enough, not a guy I'm going to fight too hard for. First name that came to mind that hadn't been mentioned yet. Hard to accurately judge goalies from that era, though.
 

seventieslord

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Fair enough, not a guy I'm going to fight too hard for. First name that came to mind that hadn't been mentioned yet. Hard to accurately judge goalies from that era, though.

Yeah, totally. That's why we like to go with what the people who saw them thought. It's the best we've got.

Honestly though, his family members who campaigned for his induction got media attention and everything. I'm pretty sure I've seen their case published on a couple of occasions, perhaps back in the 90s in the hockey news. That resonated with a few people, and as recently as a decade ago I remember him being cited more frequently in threads like this.

I think for the most part the idea of putting him in the Hall of Fame has finally been put to bed, but I guess occasionally he still comes up in conversations as one of the better names not in... like today for example.
 
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Sanf

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Fair enough, not a guy I'm going to fight too hard for. First name that came to mind that hadn't been mentioned yet. Hard to accurately judge goalies from that era, though.

When it comes to Chabot I often point out what a rollercoaster career he had. He slumped sometimes so badly on regular season that he was on his way out from NHL. To bounce from that to a level where he earned himself a "money goalie" reputation. He occasionally played in a level that would make him HHOF goalie. But even after that lone All-Star selection he lost his job to Mike Karakas. There were various reasons for that, but overall he wasn´t seen irreplaceable. Good goalie and one of my absolute favourites, but not as great as the simple stats show.

Few clips from his up and down career.

The Leader-Post - Mar 19, 1931
By Jimmy Thompson

For example take Lorne Chabot. This year he is goalkeeper extraordinary and on one and more occasion has saved the day for the Toronto Leafs. Yet last year he appeared to have slumped to such an extent that the club offered waivers on him. Yet Lorne is as fine a net-minder as there is in the game today

January 15, 1932
The Vancouver Sun

...waivers were asked on Chabot by the Leafs, and chances are that, had the waivers been pressed, he would have passed out of the major loop for every other club is pretty well fortified in the matter of net-minders. But,just about that time, Leafs were losing, and when Benny Grant cracked up in front of the powerful Maroon snipers in Montreal on the night of December 3, and lost 8-2, with Maroons bagging three goals in 38 seconds, the Leafs laid off Grant and gave Chabot another chance. Immediately Leafs started a terrific winning streak which ultimately swept them into the lead in their section...
 

Sanf

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Kiprusoff and lockout season is one of my favourite what ifs. Its not unreasonable to think that he could have had a big year. He was Vezina second on his half season before lockout and then winner after it. And after that I could talk about HHOF.

I loved Kiprusoff as goalie. I mean what he was like technically. But his performance level slided quite quickly to an better than average and to average starter (granted that his job wasn´t easiest) . And that in my opinion does not bring that much to HOF case or even best goalies outside HOF case.

But those are what ifs.
 

VanIslander

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Ryan Miller was a much touted prospect who broke records for wins and save percentage in the NCAA, winning the Hobey Baker and going to a lowly Buffalo team where he often was the team's number one star of the game. He won a Vezina. He played well on two conference finals runs. He backstopped team USA to the gold medal game against Canada in the 2010 Olympics, selected as tourney MVP. I thought him HHOF potential for years. Injuries and St. Louis were not kind to him. *sigh*
 

seventieslord

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Ryan Miller was a much touted prospect who broke records for wins and save percentage in the NCAA, winning the Hobey Baker and going to a lowly Buffalo team where he often was the team's number one star of the game. He won a Vezina. He played well on two conference finals runs. He backstopped team USA to the gold medal game against Canada in the 2010 Olympics, selected as tourney MVP. I thought him HHOF potential for years. Injuries and St. Louis were not kind to him. *sigh*

Basically everything he did outside of the NHL was otherworldly; he was a man among boys. I remember having high hopes for him for a long time. I guess in the end you'd have to say he underwhelmed, even though there's nothing wrong with being a legit starter for a decade - not many goalies actually do that, and fewer win a Vezina (and nearly a Hart).
 
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Big Phil

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Because Fleury is this generation's Osgood at best.

Fleury top 10 finishes to date:

GAA: 3, 8, 9
SV%: 5, 6, 10
GSAA: 5, 8
Goalie point shares: 7, 8, 10

While he was on Pittsburgh, I'd have said maybe. But is it just possible the guy was always a good goalie whether he was on Crosby and Malkin's team or an expansion team? There is a reason he was chosen 1st overall in 2003.

Remember too, in 2009 you had Malkin with the Smythe and Crosby behind him, but third on the pecking order on that team was Fleury and it almost always was. 2017 he was excellent in Murray's absence in the playoffs, people forget this. Then in 2018 he carries a team to the final. I don't know, the more I see Fleury on Vegas the more I think maybe he was overshadowed a lot in Pittsburgh.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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ryan miller is interesting. he begs the question of if you frankenstein felix potvin’s amateur/minors career and first two seasons in the league with a nabokov or turco resume, and add richter’s 96 world cup performance, that sure looks on paper like a good HHOF case right?

but man i haven’t thought of him as being a contender since he lost to the senators, 2010 blip notwithstanding.
 
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frisco

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Vezina Top Threes:
Barrasso-1, 2, 2, 2, 3.
Joseph-2, 3, 3.
Beezer-1, 2.
Richter-3.
Luongo-2, 3, 3.
Miller-1.
Kiprusoff-1, 2, 3.
Thomas-1, 1.
Nabokov-2.
Liut-1, 2, 3. Used AS for pre-Vezina top goalie years.
Vernon-2.
Moog-3.
Osgood-2.

Barrasso, Osgood, and Vernon have two Cups as starters. Thomas and Richter (1 each) are the only other above that have won it all. Moog has rings but not as the starter.

Barrasso by quite a bit is the best North American eligible goalie not in the Hall.

My Best-Carey
 

seventieslord

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Vezina Top Threes:
Barrasso-1, 2, 2, 2, 3.
Joseph-2, 3, 3.
Beezer-1, 2.
Richter-3.
Luongo-2, 3, 3.
Miller-1.
Kiprusoff-1, 2, 3.
Thomas-1, 1.
Nabokov-2.
Liut-1, 2, 3. Used AS for pre-Vezina top goalie years.
Vernon-2.
Moog-3.
Osgood-2.

Barrasso, Osgood, and Vernon have two Cups as starters. Thomas and Richter (1 each) are the only other above that have won it all. Moog has rings but not as the starter.

Barrasso by quite a bit is the best North American eligible goalie not in the Hall.

My Best-Carey

Maybe, maybe not. The thing about Barrasso is that although he has some nice peak years, his bad years were really bad, while guys like Joseph, Beezer and Luongo were always very good even when they weren't vezina finalists.

To illustrate what I mean, here are the sums of each goalie's best and worst GSAA through age 36:

Barrasso: 119.32, -45.52
Joseph 181.53, -18.39
Beezer: 150.97, -11.05
Luongo: 164.25, 17.51

Actually, all three of these other guys had better statistical primes while not having lows nearly as low as him. Luongo in particular was above average in his worst 5 years!

Vernon is another goalie who gets a lot of mileage out of "accomplishment counting" but his day-to-day, season-to-season performances were not as good as "2 cups, 4 finals, vezina runner-up" makes him sound. (for the record, his GSAA numbers would be 53.24 and -54.17)
 

frisco

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To illustrate what I mean, here are the sums of each goalie's best and worst GSAA through age 36:
Barrasso: 119.32, -45.52
Joseph 181.53, -18.39
That is a little deceiving as by putting the cutoff at an arbitrary age 36 you eliminate Joseph's two worst years (2006-07 -18.66, 2008-09 -14.95). Cujo almost remarkably played 19 seasons with making the Finals once or making a first or second AS team. In fact, he never even was as high as third in AS voting.

Adjusted GAA-Top five finishes.
Joseph (1)-4th.
Barrasso (4)-1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd.

My Best-Carey
 

seventieslord

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That is a little deceiving as by putting the cutoff at an arbitrary age 36 you eliminate Joseph's two worst years (2006-07 -18.66, 2008-09 -14.95). Cujo almost remarkably played 19 seasons with making the Finals once or making a first or second AS team. In fact, he never even was as high as third in AS voting.

Adjusted GAA-Top five finishes.
Joseph (1)-4th.
Barrasso (4)-1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd.

My Best-Carey

OK then man, you go ahead and judge a goalie for being a starter in the NHL at age 39 then, ignoring the fact that no one wanted Barrasso at 39, or 38 for that matter (or as a full season starter at 37, 36, 35 or 34...) His five worst seasons were all over the place, at the ages of 21, 24, 26, 33 and 34

Also, quoting GAA finishes is as cheap as you can possibly get. You know better than this.
 
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Asheville

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Stanley Cup (biggest market; as vital cog)
World Cup (US's best showing at a best-on-best event)
World Cup MVP
Olympic Silver
Canada Cup runner-up (US's best showing at a Canada Cup)
Most wins in a season by a Ranger

And according to an on-going poll, most would be okay with his theoretical induction into the HHOF
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
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Stanley Cup (biggest market; as vital cog)
World Cup (US's best showing at a best-on-best event)
World Cup MVP
Olympic Silver
Canada Cup runner-up (US's best showing at a Canada Cup)
Most wins in a season by a Ranger

And according to an on-going poll, most would be okay with his theoretical induction into the HHOF


...in the main section, I assume?
 

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