Ranking NHL Teams By Forwards

[Deadly Dogma]

Laughs at no#2,must be toronto writers!

your being sarcastic right?

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

I dont think the Pens will be 3rd in scoring at seasons end. Probably around 9 - 11th

 

[txpd]

The power rankings are now published and posted here. I think you’ll see that you were mistaken. The only position where one of those two teams was “well ahead” in my rankings was the goaltenders and that favoured Washington.

If you think the Flyers are that good, I don't know what to tell you. Enjoy

 

[letsgrowcactus]

IMO Florida forward group underrated there; defence overrated in the other article.

 

[Larry Fisher]

If you think the Flyers are that good, I don't know what to tell you. Enjoy

We shall see. They added Hayes, Niskanen, Braun and Pitlick without losing much. Their young D should continue to thrive as they enter their prime, with more stabilizing partners. Their forwards are deep and strong, with a few high-end prospects pushing up. Their goaltending is the question mark, but it should be adequate. I think Fletcher has done enough to get Philly into the playoffs, providing the Flyers get better goaltending than in recent years.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

We shall see. They added Hayes, Niskanen, Braun and Pitlick without losing much. Their young D should continue to thrive as they enter their prime, with more stabilizing partners. Their forwards are deep and strong, with a few high-end prospects pushing up. Their goaltending is the question mark, but it should be adequate. I think Fletcher has done enough to get Philly into the playoffs, providing the Flyers get better goaltending than in recent years.

Your ratings for them suggest much more than a team that should just get into the playoffs. Their power rankings have them 9th overall, which is essentially a team that should contend for the Cup, not just be good enough to make the dance.

I think this is where your overrating of their defense might hurt the overall results. You've got them as a Top 10 team on defense, when so much of that relies on youngsters playing at a consistent level they haven't shown they can do yet. Realistically, they should probably be more in the 15-20 range than 10th, which would then bump their overall ranking more in line with around 14th or 15th, which makes more sense given your expectations for them.

 

[Larry Fisher]

Your ratings for them suggest much more than a team that should just get into the playoffs. Their power rankings have them 9th overall, which is essentially a team that should contend for the Cup, not just be good enough to make the dance.

I think this is where your overrating of their defense might hurt the overall results. You've got them as a Top 10 team on defense, when so much of that relies on youngsters playing at a consistent level they haven't shown they can do yet. Realistically, they should probably be more in the 15-20 range than 10th, which would then bump their overall ranking more in line with around 14th or 15th, which makes more sense given your expectations for them.

That's fair. I'm pretty bullish on the Flyers' defence (big fan of Provorov and believe he could explode into a legit No. 1), so my ranking of that position does perhaps skew the overall ranking from likely playoff team to potential Cup contender. I'm high on Philadelphia in general for this season, but not quite that high (ninth overall). I'll have to give the Flyers more thought for my preseason predictions.

 

[tiburon12]

I think you kind of answered your own question by calling the Sharks' defencemen playmakers. They drive a lot of offence from the back end. If this was a ranking of team offence as a whole, obviously San Jose would be top 10. But I ranked the defence separately from the forwards and the defence ranking (No. 1) accounted for all that offence driven from the back end. As a result, the forwards ranking suffered — perhaps more than it should have. I also potentially overvalued the losses of Pavelski, Nyquist and Donskoi from the top nine, though I feel the San Jose fan base is undervaluing those losses here. The reality probably lies somewhere in between.

I think there is a shock factor to seeing San Jose at No. 25 because the Sharks have had a top-10 overall team offence for much of the past decade. But my rankings make it clear that I feel the defence is largely responsible for that team offence and also that San Jose's forward group has been depleted by those aforementioned losses.

No, not really. You mentioned in other posts and threads that these rankings do not take into account systems, which was why you ranked Vegas so low on your defensive rankings, yet you use the Sharks "offense from defense" system against them when ranking their forwards. It's inconsistent and shows a lack of research. Kane is a sniper, Meier scored a lot of his goals on deadly wrist shots, Hertl creates offense all by himself. The biggest benefactor of "offense from defense" was Pavelski, who scored like 65% of his goals this year on tips and rebounds.

I think you did overvalue the loss of Nyquist and Donskoi, and no, i dont think Sharks fans are undervaluing them. Donskoi was disappointing and didnt contribute much and Nyquist was only a factor for a brief time he was in teal. Yes it would be great to have him back, but his impact was minimal and shouldnt be considered a loss. Pavelski is the tricky one and i dont think anyone can give a projection with any certainty. He is slow and coming off major injuries. Hard to know how he'll rebound this year. I think everyone was surprised he came close to 40 this year and very few think he will be able to come close to that this year. But again, impossible to know right now.

 

[Larry Fisher]

No, not really. You mentioned in other posts and threads that these rankings do not take into account systems, which was why you ranked Vegas so low on your defensive rankings, yet you use the Sharks "offense from defense" system against them when ranking their forwards. It's inconsistent and shows a lack of research. Kane is a sniper, Meier scored a lot of his goals on deadly wrist shots, Hertl creates offense all by himself. The biggest benefactor of "offense from defense" was Pavelski, who scored like 65% of his goals this year on tips and rebounds.

I think you did overvalue the loss of Nyquist and Donskoi, and no, i dont think Sharks fans are undervaluing them. Donskoi was disappointing and didnt contribute much and Nyquist was only a factor for a brief time he was in teal. Yes it would be great to have him back, but his impact was minimal and shouldnt be considered a loss. Pavelski is the tricky one and i dont think anyone can give a projection with any certainty. He is slow and coming off major injuries. Hard to know how he'll rebound this year. I think everyone was surprised he came close to 40 this year and very few think he will be able to come close to that this year. But again, impossible to know right now.

I don't consider "offence from defence" to be a system at all. That is strictly a talent thing. San Jose has arguably the league's two most talented OFFENSIVE defencemen. Thus they get a ton of offence from their defence and their forwards reap those benefits. That isn't a system and it wasn't used against the forwards. I ranked the forwards strictly on their talent compared to other teams' forwards. I felt San Jose's forwards would struggle to produce to the same levels on other teams without that offensive boost from the back end.

 

[tiburon12]

I don't consider "offence from defence" to be a system at all. That is strictly a talent thing. San Jose has arguably the league's two most talented OFFENSIVE defencemen. Thus they get a ton of offence from their defence and their forwards reap those benefits. That isn't a system and it wasn't used against the forwards. I ranked the forwards strictly on their talent compared to other teams' forwards. I felt San Jose's forwards would struggle to produce to the same levels on other teams without that offensive boost from the back end.

Respectfully, if you don't think that "offense from defense" is the Sharks system, then it's clear you don't watch the Sharks enough to speak about their players with any authority. Their entire offensive zone system is based around getting the puck up to the point, where other teams, for example, cycle low. Getting the puck to Burns and Karlsson is their system and everyone knows it

 

[Larry Fisher]

Respectfully, if you don't think that "offense from defense" is the Sharks system, then it's clear you don't watch the Sharks enough to speak about their players with any authority. Their entire offensive zone system is based around getting the puck up to the point, where other teams, for example, cycle low. Getting the puck to Burns and Karlsson is their system and everyone knows it

It is their "system" because you want to get the puck in the hands/on the stick of your best players. That is why San Jose's defence is ranked No. 1. And, subsequently, why San Jose's forwards are ranked lower than anticipated. The forwards wouldn't be as good without the defencemen and without that offence from the defence. I separated the two positions and ranked them accordingly. I don't know why that is so hard to understand/comprehend.

 

[Viqsi]

It is their "system" because you want to get the puck in the hands/on the stick of your best players. That is why San Jose's defence is ranked No. 1. And, subsequently, why San Jose's forwards are ranked lower than anticipated. The forwards wouldn't be as good without the defencemen and without that offence from the defence. I separated the two positions and ranked them accordingly. I don't know why that is so hard to understand/comprehend.

Possibly because you were considerably less generous to a certain team that does the exact same thing.

 

[JeremyTB]

It is their "system" because you want to get the puck in the hands/on the stick of your best players. That is why San Jose's defence is ranked No. 1. And, subsequently, why San Jose's forwards are ranked lower than anticipated. The forwards wouldn't be as good without the defencemen and without that offence from the defence. I separated the two positions and ranked them accordingly. I don't know why that is so hard to understand/comprehend.

Even if we buy into that. Those Dmen are still there and those forwards are still going to put up those stats, if not better. At the end of the season the Sharks forwards will still produce better stats than atleast half the teams.

 

[JeremyTB]

I don't consider "offence from defence" to be a system at all. That is strictly a talent thing. San Jose has arguably the league's two most talented OFFENSIVE defencemen. Thus they get a ton of offence from their defence and their forwards reap those benefits. That isn't a system and it wasn't used against the forwards. I ranked the forwards strictly on their talent compared to other teams' forwards. I felt San Jose's forwards would struggle to produce to the same levels on other teams without that offensive boost from the back end.

There is no rational explanation to say the Oilers have a more talented forward group than the Sharks. Same said for some other teams you have ahead of them.

 

[Larry Fisher]

Even if we buy into that. Those Dmen are still there and those forwards are still going to put up those stats, if not better. At the end of the season the Sharks forwards will still produce better stats than atleast half the teams.

Right, but does that make them more talented than other forward groups? I wasn't ranking by total offence, I was ranking by individual positions based on talent levels.

 

[Larry Fisher]

There is no rational explanation to say the Oilers have a more talented forward group than the Sharks. Same said for some other teams you have ahead of them.

The rationale is the Oilers have two forwards that are better than the Sharks' best forward. San Jose is still deeper, with five top-six forwards to Edmonton's three (or four if you believe Neal is going to rebound). The bottom sixes are both mediocre at best. But, ultimately, McDavid and Draisaitl propelled Edmonton ahead of San Jose in the forward rankings. That said, when Thornton re-signs I clearly stated San Jose would "settle in closer to No. 20." I have Edmonton at No. 19. So it's fair to say I see those forward groups as being comparable in terms of talent level.

 

[JeremyTB]

The rationale is the Oilers have two forwards that are better than the Sharks' best forward. San Jose is still deeper, with five top-six forwards to Edmonton's three (or four if you believe Neal is going to rebound). The bottom sixes are both mediocre at best. But, ultimately, McDavid and Draisaitl propelled Edmonton ahead of San Jose in the forward rankings. That said, when Thornton re-signs I clearly stated San Jose would "settle in closer to No. 20." I have Edmonton at No. 19. So it's fair to say I see those forward groups as being comparable in terms of talent level.

Any team that has Kassian,Neal, and Granlund in their top 6 doesn't deserve to be that high. The Oilers 4th leading scorer last season among forwards had 38 points. They are going to have a guy on the 3rd line who scored 3 goals last season and another guy who only scored 12. The Sharks bottom 6 is going to be much better than the Oilers. And their 2nd line is going to be much better. Hertl is better than RNH and Labanc is much better than the other two forwards on the Oilers 2nd line. And whoever the Sharks get to fill out that 2nd line I am sure will be better than Neal and Granlund who are borderline 3rd line players at best.

 

[Larry Fisher]

Any team that has Kassian,Neal, and Granlund in their top 6 doesn't deserve to be that high. The Oilers 4th leading scorer last season among forwards had 38 points. They are going to have a guy on the 3rd line who scored 3 goals last season and another guy who only scored 12. The Sharks bottom 6 is going to be much better than the Oilers. And their 2nd line is going to be much better. Hertl is better than RNH and Labanc is much better than the other two forwards on the Oilers 2nd line. And whoever the Sharks get to fill out that 2nd line I am sure will be better than Neal and Granlund who are borderline 3rd line players at best.

Hertl is better than RNH? That’s debatable. RNH isn’t far off Couture. And if Edmonton had Burns and Karlsson, I would imagine Neal and others would be putting up bigger/inflated numbers too. Much of San Jose’s offence is a byproduct of their defence, which was ranked No. 1. This isn’t a ranking of team offence. This is comparing forward groups based on talent and I felt McDavid and Draisaitl put Edmonton’s group into the top 20 and San Jose’s offseason losses dropped the Sharks out of the top 20, but that ranking improves to “around 20” providing Thornton is re-signed.

Putting it another way, if you were a GM and you could choose one of the two forwards groups — Edmonton or San Jose — for this season, which would you choose? I’d take the group with McDavid and Draisaitl.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Hertl is better than RNH? That’s debatable. RNH isn’t far off Couture. And if Edmonton had Burns and Karlsson, I would imagine Neal and others would be putting up bigger/inflated numbers too. Much of San Jose’s offence is a byproduct of their defence, which was ranked No. 1. This isn’t a ranking of team offence. This is comparing forward groups based on talent and I felt McDavid and Draisaitl put Edmonton’s group into the top 20 and San Jose’s offseason losses dropped the Sharks out of the top 20, but that ranking improves to “around 20” providing Thornton is re-signed.

Putting it another way, if you were a GM and you could choose one of the two forwards groups — Edmonton or San Jose — for this season, which would you choose? I’d take the group with McDavid and Draisaitl.

Yet again, if you know this little about these teams and these players that you can make a statement like this, you just shouldn’t be doing these rankings.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Hertl is better than RNH? That’s debatable. RNH isn’t far off Couture. And if Edmonton had Burns and Karlsson, I would imagine Neal and others would be putting up bigger/inflated numbers too. Much of San Jose’s offence is a byproduct of their defence, which was ranked No. 1. This isn’t a ranking of team offence. This is comparing forward groups based on talent and I felt McDavid and Draisaitl put Edmonton’s group into the top 20 and San Jose’s offseason losses dropped the Sharks out of the top 20, but that ranking improves to “around 20” providing Thornton is re-signed.

Putting it another way, if you were a GM and you could choose one of the two forwards groups — Edmonton or San Jose — for this season, which would you choose? I’d take the group with McDavid and Draisaitl.

You really think the ONLY thing separating San Jose and Edmonton is their bluelines?

 

[Larry Fisher]

Yet again, if you know this little about these teams and these players that you can make a statement like this, you just shouldn’t be doing these rankings.

If you put that to a league-wide poll of the 32 NHL general managers asking who they would rather have, Hertl or RNH, I suspect it would be split quite evenly but I honestly expect the edge to go to Nugent-Hopkins.

 

[Larry Fisher]

You really think the ONLY thing separating San Jose and Edmonton is their bluelines?

That's the biggest difference, yes. The forwards are comparable and based on Jones-Dell last season, I'm not convinced San Jose's goaltending is much better either. So the defence is the main thing separating San Jose and Edmonton — as evidenced by my positional rankings.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

If you put that to a league-wide poll of the 32 NHL general managers asking who they would rather have, Hertl or RNH, I suspect it would be split quite evenly but I honestly expect the edge to go to Nugent-Hopkins.

This post is exactly why I say that you should do more research on these players, and until you do so, these lists have absolutely no credibility. You can’t expect anybody to take these lists seriously when you make statements like this.

 

[Larry Fisher]

This post is exactly why I say that you should do more research on these players, and until you do so, these lists have absolutely no credibility. You can’t expect anybody to take these lists seriously when you make statements like this.

Hertl or Nugent-Hopkins ... who would you prefer everybody? I'm taking Nugent-Hopkins.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Hertl or Nugent-Hopkins ... who would you prefer everybody? I'm taking Nugent-Hopkins.

Not that I am appealing to majority, but the majority opinion is pretty clearly in favor of Hertl.

HFBoards Top 31 NHL Centers - #28

Hertl got 39 votes in that poll. RNH got 3.

The fact that you would think majority opinion would be in favor of RNH shows - once again - that your haven’t done nearly enough research on these players.