Ranking NHL Teams By Forwards

JPeeper

Hail Satan!
Jan 4, 2015
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No, but your depth has to be really goddamn bad to get to the point where you're in the bottom-third of the league despite having the clearcut best player.

But it is that bad.

This list is pretty atrocious overall though. Both the Sharks and Flames scored 289 goals last year (both only behind Tampa) and they are 25th and 13th place respectively. Sure the Sharks lost a couple players, but they aren't f***ing 25th and the Flames lost no one (wow thanks for those 7 goals Neal) and are 13th while all their guys are entering their prime.

Please do tell how the Leafs, who scored less goals last year than the Flames have the league's second best offence over the Flames. inb4 career year argument for the Flames players when the Leafs player also had career years.


I mean the Flames who finished second in the league, had the 2nd best goal differential, 2nd best offence, top 10 goals against, have according to these lists bottom 5 goaltending, the 7th best defence and 13th best offence and the team is virtually the same going into next year.
 
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Sam Spade

Registered User
May 4, 2009
27,484
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The Sharks being 25th is an absolutely scorching take.

Holy cow yes. The Capitals at nine was bad (they should be top five, probably top three), but the Sharks at 25 invalidates the entire list.

I also will question the Oilers at 19 (too high), the Bruins at 15 (too low), and the Knights at 4 (way too high).
 
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HanSolo

DJ Crazy Times
Apr 7, 2008
96,449
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We've had fun debating the goaltenders and defence, but now let the real debating begin with the forwards. Which Which NHL teams have the best — and the worst — forwards? Here's how I have them ranked heading into the 2019-20 season: https://thehockeywriters.com/ranking-nhl-teams-by-forwards/

Agree or disagree?
Not upset with the forward ranking but I must say,

The goalie group ranking is a bit off. As a fan of both teams I can confidently say Anaheim is superior with their goaltending.

Gibson is better than Fleury and Miller is miles ahead of Subban.
 

rynryn

Reluctant Optimist. Permanently Déclassé.
May 29, 2008
33,295
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Minny
borderline generous with the Wild ranking forwards

just read the Defense rankings and 16 is...awful.
 

ColbyChaos

Marty Snoozeman's Father
Sep 27, 2017
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New Jersey and Dallas have no buisness being as high as they are crap list.

When a team that was 8th in GF this season and 4th from Q's firing onward isnt even in the top 10 you know that list sucks.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
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New Jersey and Dallas have no buisness being as high as they are crap list.

When a team that was 8th in GF this season and 4th from Q's firing onward isnt even in the top 10 you know that list sucks.

That’s a strange gripe to have with a list that took the team that was 2nd in GF and ranked them 25th. Lol
 

DANTHEMAN1967

Registered User
Aug 10, 2016
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But it is that bad.

This list is pretty atrocious overall though. Both the Sharks and Flames scored 289 goals last year (both only behind Tampa) and they are 25th and 13th place respectively. Sure the Sharks lost a couple players, but they aren't ****ing 25th and the Flames lost no one (wow thanks for those 7 goals Neal) and are 13th while all their guys are entering their prime.

Please do tell how the Leafs, who scored less goals last year than the Flames have the league's second best offence over the Flames. inb4 career year argument for the Flames players when the Leafs player also had career years.


I mean the Flames who finished second in the league, had the 2nd best goal differential, 2nd best offence, top 10 goals against, have according to these lists bottom 5 goaltending, the 7th best defence and 13th best offence and the team is virtually the same going into next year.

The Leafs core is younger.
Is it more likely that a 25 year old Reilly out performs his 2018-19 year or a 36 year old Giordano?
 

Larry Fisher

Registered User
Sep 19, 2002
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Yes, they do, even if you don’t realize it. Any team with Dylan Gambrell as their 2nd line center is going to look a hell of a lot different than a team with Dylan Gambrell on the 4th line and Tomas Hertl as their 2nd line center.

And that doesn’t really change my point either. If you know so little about the team and their players to think that Kevin Labanc will play the 2nd line LW, Dylan Gambrell will play the 2nd line C, and Tomas Hertl will play the 2nd line RW, then you know so little about these players, their respective careers, and their positions in the organization that you really shouldn’t be ranking them.

In addition, you still got the forward groups wrong, because of what I mentioned below.



And again, GM Doug Wilson, head coach Peter DeBoer, and Joe Thornton himself have all confirmed that Thornton will return next season. The most casual of Sharks fans are aware of this, and most NHL fans who are even semi-passionate about the sport are aware of this as well.

If you didn’t know something as simple as this, and you didn’t bother to put in the effort to do something as simple as ask some posters on HFBoards about this, then you shouldn’t have made these articles ranking all of these forward groups that you know very little about.

This doesn’t exclusively apply to the Sharks, or to your thread about forwards, as I’m sure that you made similar mistakes on other teams.

Trust me, I follow the league as a whole. Reality is, San Jose lost three players from their top nine, I don't think anybody can guarantee what DeBoer's lineup plans will be ahead of camp. As mentioned, I used CapFriendly's depth chart tool as a starting point for every team. I should have taken a closer look at San Jose, but with all the offseason turnover there, I just assumed the lines were to be determined in the preseason. I think I said as much in the analysis.

I also made it clear that Thornton's signing sounded inevitable — but then again so did Justin Williams in Carolina — and that Marleau would like to land back there. So it's not like I ignored or wasn't aware of any of that. Still, I think so much of San Jose's offence is driven by their defence (ranked No. 1 for me). The forwards are good, not great on paper, average at best I would say.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
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Trust me, I follow the league as a whole. Reality is, San Jose lost three players from their top nine, I don't think anybody can guarantee what DeBoer's lineup plans will be ahead of camp. As mentioned, I used CapFriendly's depth chart tool as a starting point for every team. I should have taken a closer look at San Jose, but with all the offseason turnover there, I just assumed the lines were to be determined in the preseason. I think I said as much in the analysis.

I also made it clear that Thornton's signing sounded inevitable — but then again so did Justin Williams in Carolina — and that Marleau would like to land back there. So it's not like I ignored or wasn't aware of any of that. Still, I think so much of San Jose's offence is driven by their defence (ranked No. 1 for me). The forwards are good, not great on paper, average at best I would say.

If you followed enough of the league as a whole for these rankings to have any sort of credibility, you would know that Tomas Hertl is a center who broke out centering his own line this season.

If you followed enough of the league as a whole for these rankings to have any sort of credibility, you would know that the Joe Thornton situation is not remotely similar to the Justin Williams situation, because Doug Wilson, Peter DeBoer, and Joe Thornton himself have all said that Thornton will return this season, where as Williams never said anything of the sort.

I realize this is a lot of information for somebody to be aware of, but if you're going to publish articles that rank teams, you ought to do the work to actually understand those teams. Whether that comes from paying closer attention to the teams during the season and throughout the off-season, or doing significantly more research on these teams in the off-season in order to better prepare yourself to write these articles, I really don't care. And where you choose to rank the Sharks, once you've actually put in enough work to form a valid opinion, I also really don't care. Go ahead and rank them 31st for all I care. But don't rank them if you think their 2nd line is going to feature Kevin Labanc on the left wing, Dylan Gambrell at center, and Tomas Hertl on the right wing. You don't even know what you're ranking.

Oh and by the way, I can f***ing guarantee you that Peter DeBoer's plans do not involve bumping Tomas Hertl - a 35 goal, 74 point center with 16 goals in his past 29 playoff games - to the wing in favor of Dylan Gambrell - an undersized 23 year old with 13 games of NHL experience.
 

Larry Fisher

Registered User
Sep 19, 2002
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Understandable. I think they'll be much better this year individually. Pulock took some time getting acclimated and Leddy took basically 60 games til he looked normal.

It's the only position now and in the future I'm psyched about the Isles. Pulock will be a legitimate number 1 dman this year, Toews is excellent and should make a great number 3. Couple those two offensive players with steady Pelech and Mayfield and you have two solid top pairs. Having Leddy/Boychuk playing on the third pair really helps both of them. There's the familiarity between the two of them and they won't have to spend as much on the ice so they should be fresh. Having Pulock, Wilde, Aho and a couple of other tweeners gives the Isles a ton of depth and tradable commodities over the next couple of years.

I think Varlamov will surprise people and Greiss will be hungry as he knows he's playing to get a contract from another team next year.

Offense is in shambles. Really need one of Walhlstrom or Bellows to develop into an eventual first-liner and Koivula to continue making progress as a center. He's a smart hockey player and has the size to anchor a legitimate scoring and checking third line.

And don't forget Dobson. He's the future of that defence, with a better chance of becoming a No. 1 than Pulock. And I say that as a big Pulock fan from his Brandon days. It's a solid group in the present but could be pretty spectacular in the years to come if Pulock, Dobson and Wilde all reach their potential ceilings.
 

Larry Fisher

Registered User
Sep 19, 2002
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Olli Maata was getting scratched. Calvin de Haan is always a play away from oblivion. And if you're looking forward, NYI is better than both.

I disagree. I think both Maatta and de Haan (once healthy) are going to be impactful defenders for Chicago and their additions certainly factored into my ranking. Without them, Chicago likely wouldn't have cracked my top 20. They may be "depth" guys but they are proven vets who could respond well to this change of scenery IMO.
 

Larry Fisher

Registered User
Sep 19, 2002
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The team with the best forward in the NHL is almost in the bottom-3rd of the forwards ranking.

That just says... so much.

I'm confused? I'm pretty sure McDavid is the best forward in the league and he carried his team into the top 20. My bad, I thought you said "almost in the bottom three" but it says "almost in the bottom third". Correct, that speaks to how bad Edmonton's supporting cast is. If Edmonton didn't have McDavid, the Oilers would be 31st without any debate.
 

Larry Fisher

Registered User
Sep 19, 2002
4,034
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Kelowna, B.C.
What goes into your team forward rankings, if you don't mind me asking? Are you using raw production, per 60 numbers, even strength scoring, etc? Or is it just your personal opinion of where you think they fit? Pretty good list though, other than a couple teams.

Good question. This series is more opinion than stats based. Of course, I'm aware of all those numbers and I took them into consideration, but I mostly used my own judgment to determine the rankings. These are my opinions, not the opinions of the stats sheet (fancy or traditional).
 

Larry Fisher

Registered User
Sep 19, 2002
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Boy! This is serious stuff! :laugh:
Good effort
Too many saying their team is too low in a vacuum without saying who they should be above. Some teams have to be ranked low. It doesn’t mean that they don’t have some good pieces, it just means that the writer likes other teams better. It’s also one persons opinion. No need to get upset if you don’t agree.
For what it’s worth, I think the Canucks are about right here.
The only one I really see that is out of place is the Sharks. They have a decent forward group.

Thanks for the comment, I appreciate a little positive feedback mixed in with all the negative! And, yes, the Sharks seem to be the team getting the most response for being too low. Perhaps I overestimated their losses this offseason. But, as much as I like their later-round prospects, the forwards aren't that deep — especially without Thornton in the present. And like I've been saying, so much of San Jose's offence comes from the defence, which was ranked No. 1 yesterday (largely for their offensive contributions). So the forwards ranking suffered a little because I was so high on the defence impacting the offence.
 

Larry Fisher

Registered User
Sep 19, 2002
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Not a SJS fan fyi (CHI). Yes, Couture/Hertl of course, it's clearly one of the best 1-2 punches in the league.

I agree with a poster above if youre making such a league wide list you better familiarize yourself with the correct lineups. Otherwise whats really the point?

But what is the correct lineup when the team potentially lost four top-nine forwards without replacing them (Pavelski, Nyquist, Donskoi, Thornton)? Does anybody really know what the lines will be given that much turnover (1/3 of the forwards are gone as of today)?

Based on the feedback here, it makes sense to spread the talent around rather than load up the top line like I did, but it's not like Couture-Meier and Hertl-Kane are pairings that have been locked in for years and are sure to start/stay together. And like I've said more than once, I primarily used the CapFriendly depth chart tool as a starting point for every team's depth chart. I should have probably used Daily Faceoff in hindsight.
 

Larry Fisher

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Sep 19, 2002
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No, but your depth has to be really goddamn bad to get to the point where you're in the bottom-third of the league despite having the clearcut best player.

True ... and, yes, Edmonton's depth is that bad. It's like Dom wrote in his Athletic season preview for Edmonton, the forwards are:

Draisaitl-McDavid-Guy
Guy-Nugent-Hopkins-Guy
Guy-Guy-Guy
Guy-Guy-Guy

Maybe Neal deserves to be named but not based on last season. The rest are filler/replacement level. Even the guys that Edmonton is somewhat excited about, Granlund and Archibald, weren't qualified by their previous non-playoff teams and Gagner was buried in the AHL before getting a second chance in Edmonton.
 
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Larry Fisher

Registered User
Sep 19, 2002
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I would have the Jackets higher, even without Panarin and Duchene. The team was 11th in offence before acquiring Duchene.

Like San Jose, I feel Columbus gets a lot of offence from their defence (Jones and Werenski are drivers from the back end), so that hurt their forwards ranking a bit. But I also think Panarin's loss can't be underestimated there, he was a huge catalyst for that offence.
 

Larry Fisher

Registered User
Sep 19, 2002
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Kelowna, B.C.
These guys seriously think the Flyers have a better team than the Capitals.

This guy ... these opinions are mine and mine alone ... and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion? Tomorrow's power rankings should provide some clarity on that front.
 

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