Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by UltimateHockeyFan8, Jan 20, 2011.
How would you rank these 4 defensively and why?
You realize this is extremely difficult, right?
There is a good reason to choose each player.
Ultimately it comes down to strength of quotes on each player, their presence in hart voting, and their all-star teams relative to points scored.
I've been through 6 ATDs and I can't say for sure which one I'd choose. Any could be 1st or 4th.
All four played during the era when the forward pass was introduced so their performance before and after the forward pass rules were introduced in 1929 would have to be considered.
That is exactly why I made this thread. I can't for the life of me choose between them. I was just wondering if the people on this site might know
It depends. Is it for a fantasy/ATD thing?
I can't tell who is the best, though I can probably tell who's the worst in that group (Dutton).
I took Conacher just because of his unbelievable athletic ability but I agree all are pretty even overall
Why are two people so sure Red Dutton should be 4th? Dutton provided little to no offense, yet was twice in the top-5 in Hart voting. Not all-star voting, Hart voting. That says a lot right there.
I think Cy Wenworth belonds in the discussion. Ultimate Hockey named him the best defenseman defensively in this time period over these guys.
Based on what? let's see some quotes. UH is just one source. Many of their retro awards, and best and worst of the decade are highly dubious as well.
Guys to add to the mix:
Earl Seibert, Eddie Shore, Red Horner, Hap Day, King Clancy, Ebbie Goodfellow and I guess maybe Cy Wentworth (I know next to nothing about him, but I also saw the Ultimate Hockey thing)
I know some of these guys aren't at the same level as the rest (probably Clancy and Goodfellow) but I would also like to see how they would fit in. Any thoughts?
Also, add Ching Johnson to the discussion
I would probably put them like this (this is done quickly, mainly just general knowledge, and no specific research). I'll seperate them into 2 categories
Important to mention that not much seperates most of these guys
The quotes I did find in my searchings of him:
Yes, UH has some dubious flaws, but if HHH's findings on the Northcott selke trophy win are any indication, there may be more reasoning and evidence behind it than we thought.
Earl Seibert, yes. Hitchman was, to my knowledge, considered rather better defensively than Shore as his partner. I don't think there's much substantiating Horner's defense (besides some newspaper accounts I only glanced at). Day, I think so. Clancy has an arguement, but you're right that he's probably not at the level. Goodfellow, a lot of time at forward and not anything substantiating much defense.
Hockey Outsider posted a link in the last HOH Top 100 discussion (I believe when comparing Shore to Harvey). It was from a newspaper in 1933, which listed King Clancy, Lionel Hitchman, and Ching Johnson as three defensemen "even better in their own zone" than Eddie Shore.
Just one contemporary source, so take it for what it's worth.
Lionel Hitchman tops my list, followed closely by Lionel Conacher, who brings much more than defensive awareness.
Im surprised king clancy isnt being ranked high here for defensive awareness, since he was getting alot of hat votes year after year.
Ill quote an old post
Based on the comments from boucher it seems like hitchman was a serge savard type of player and clancy was the brad park/red kelly of his times. Earl Siebert seems to be ranked high defensively and he has longevity, i think he should be ranked 10-15 spots higher on the next top 100, he's better than scott stevens and pierre pilote.
how could you possibly rank players in defensive awareness from so long ago?
hitchman was apparently more of a purely defensive player than savard.
i cannot think of a similar player to clancy. clancy was small, very fast, very feisty, very good offensively and also a good defensive player. early in his career with ottawa, he was a substitute at both F and D, and even once played G after his goaltender was penalized.
something that makes me unsure about earl seibert is that 3 of his 4 1st AS's were during WW2, and he was regularly beaten for AS's by converted F's.
babe siebert, ebbie goodfellow, dit clapper took 8 1st AS spots during seibert's prime.
but i think left d-man and right d-man were distinct in AS voting during that era. eddie shore usually took 1st AS right d-man. but we would need to know more about AS voting and which players played right and left to have a better understanding.
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