Ranking Mantha, Hitchman, L. Conacher and Dutton defensively

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by UltimateHockeyFan8, Jan 20, 2011.

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  1. UltimateHockeyFan8

    UltimateHockeyFan8 Registered User

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    How would you rank these 4 defensively and why?
     
  2. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    You realize this is extremely difficult, right?

    There is a good reason to choose each player.

    Ultimately it comes down to strength of quotes on each player, their presence in hart voting, and their all-star teams relative to points scored.

    I've been through 6 ATDs and I can't say for sure which one I'd choose. Any could be 1st or 4th.
     
  3. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Rule Changes

    All four played during the era when the forward pass was introduced so their performance before and after the forward pass rules were introduced in 1929 would have to be considered.
     
  4. UltimateHockeyFan8

    UltimateHockeyFan8 Registered User

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    That is exactly why I made this thread. I can't for the life of me choose between them. I was just wondering if the people on this site might know
     
  5. MXD

    MXD Original #4

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    It depends. Is it for a fantasy/ATD thing?

    I can't tell who is the best, though I can probably tell who's the worst in that group (Dutton).
     
  6. tony d

    tony d Registered User Sponsor

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    Conacher
    Hitchman
    Mantha
    Dutton
     
  7. Tillman40

    Tillman40 I Mo I Mo

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    I took Conacher just because of his unbelievable athletic ability but I agree all are pretty even overall
     
  8. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Why are two people so sure Red Dutton should be 4th? Dutton provided little to no offense, yet was twice in the top-5 in Hart voting. Not all-star voting, Hart voting. That says a lot right there.
     
  9. Leafs Forever

    Leafs Forever Registered User

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    I think Cy Wenworth belonds in the discussion. Ultimate Hockey named him the best defenseman defensively in this time period over these guys.
     
  10. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Based on what? let's see some quotes. UH is just one source. Many of their retro awards, and best and worst of the decade are highly dubious as well.
     
  11. UltimateHockeyFan8

    UltimateHockeyFan8 Registered User

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    Guys to add to the mix:
    Earl Seibert, Eddie Shore, Red Horner, Hap Day, King Clancy, Ebbie Goodfellow and I guess maybe Cy Wentworth (I know next to nothing about him, but I also saw the Ultimate Hockey thing)

    I know some of these guys aren't at the same level as the rest (probably Clancy and Goodfellow) but I would also like to see how they would fit in. Any thoughts?
     
  12. UltimateHockeyFan8

    UltimateHockeyFan8 Registered User

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    Also, add Ching Johnson to the discussion
     
  13. UltimateHockeyFan8

    UltimateHockeyFan8 Registered User

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    I would probably put them like this (this is done quickly, mainly just general knowledge, and no specific research). I'll seperate them into 2 categories

    Defensive Awareness:
    Lionel Conacher
    Lionel Hitchman
    Sylvio Mantha
    Red Dutton
    Earl Seibert
    Hap Day
    Ching Johnson
    Eddie Shore
    Red Horner
    King Clancy
    Ebbie Goddfellow

    Body Checking:
    Ching Johnson
    Red Horner
    Eddie Shore
    Earl Seibert
    Lionel Conacher
    Red Dutton
    Hap Day
    Lionel Hitchman
    Sylvio Mantha
    Ebbie Goodfellow
    King Clancy

    Important to mention that not much seperates most of these guys
     
  14. Leafs Forever

    Leafs Forever Registered User

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    The quotes I did find in my searchings of him:

    http://leafscentral.co.uk/forum/sho...III-Bio-Thread&p=493066&viewfull=1#post493066

    Yes, UH has some dubious flaws, but if HHH's findings on the Northcott selke trophy win are any indication, there may be more reasoning and evidence behind it than we thought.
     
  15. Leafs Forever

    Leafs Forever Registered User

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    Earl Seibert, yes. Hitchman was, to my knowledge, considered rather better defensively than Shore as his partner. I don't think there's much substantiating Horner's defense (besides some newspaper accounts I only glanced at). Day, I think so. Clancy has an arguement, but you're right that he's probably not at the level. Goodfellow, a lot of time at forward and not anything substantiating much defense.
     
  16. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Hockey Outsider posted a link in the last HOH Top 100 discussion (I believe when comparing Shore to Harvey). It was from a newspaper in 1933, which listed King Clancy, Lionel Hitchman, and Ching Johnson as three defensemen "even better in their own zone" than Eddie Shore.

    Just one contemporary source, so take it for what it's worth.
     
  17. EagleBelfour

    EagleBelfour Registered User

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    Lionel Hitchman tops my list, followed closely by Lionel Conacher, who brings much more than defensive awareness.
     
  18. canucks4ever

    canucks4ever Registered User

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    Im surprised king clancy isnt being ranked high here for defensive awareness, since he was getting alot of hat votes year after year.
     
  19. Dark Shadows

    Dark Shadows Registered User

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    Ill quote an old post
     
  20. canucks4ever

    canucks4ever Registered User

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    Based on the comments from boucher it seems like hitchman was a serge savard type of player and clancy was the brad park/red kelly of his times. Earl Siebert seems to be ranked high defensively and he has longevity, i think he should be ranked 10-15 spots higher on the next top 100, he's better than scott stevens and pierre pilote.
     
  21. nik jr

    nik jr Registered User

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    how could you possibly rank players in defensive awareness from so long ago?

    hitchman was apparently more of a purely defensive player than savard.

    i cannot think of a similar player to clancy. clancy was small, very fast, very feisty, very good offensively and also a good defensive player. early in his career with ottawa, he was a substitute at both F and D, and even once played G after his goaltender was penalized.

    something that makes me unsure about earl seibert is that 3 of his 4 1st AS's were during WW2, and he was regularly beaten for AS's by converted F's.
    babe siebert, ebbie goodfellow, dit clapper took 8 1st AS spots during seibert's prime.

    but i think left d-man and right d-man were distinct in AS voting during that era. eddie shore usually took 1st AS right d-man. but we would need to know more about AS voting and which players played right and left to have a better understanding.
     

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