Rank These Centers Defensively

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
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Oates played against the very best.
Lemieux? Lindros? Gretzky?
The coach sent Oates out there.
No sheltered minutes.

I don’t doubt it. Oates played on good defensive teams for the most part, with the exception of his last couple of seasons in Boston. Not what you would expect if he was a bad defensive player. So there has to be more to the story than high goals-against = bad defensively.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,100
6,420
Oates also was one of the best at face offs. Winning the puck on the draw is as much a defensive move (especially when leading) as takeaways.
 
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silkyjohnson50

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Jan 10, 2007
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Have there been any threads here that do a deep numbers breakdown with goals against and stuff like that in regards to the most well regarded defensive forwards, such as though in the other defensive forwards thread? I'd love to see stats comparing the top 2-way and defensive guys.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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That’s why the Sedins had Burrows stapled to them for a few years. He was the one putting in the defensive work for them.

That was a role thing, team dynamics thing, team strategy/player deployment thing, during those years H & D scored lots of points. Yzerman wasn't exactly a wizard on defense either when he put up 155 points in the high flying 80s, for instance. Not claiming Sedin was great defensively or anything special but when he played in a more balanced role, both on first or second lines, he wasn't a liability. This includes on the 06 Olympics team.

The Sedins had a successful season with Anson Carter and I don't remember them bleeding goals against with him, and I also don't remember Anson Carter as a player with Selke Trophy reputation.

Sedins played with Mikael Samuelsson, also without disastrous results on the defensive side of things.
 
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buffalowing88

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Aug 11, 2008
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Charlotte, NC
I've been all-time drafting sine '04. I am confident about mostnof these placements based on all the awesome ATD bios that have been assembled by GMs and defended on the board:

1. Oates
1A. Messier

3. Damphousse (If only he had the offensive talent of others on this list)

4. Modano
5. Crosby
6. Sundin

7. Roenick (Better than Joe because mote willing to play dirty: trip, elbow, sucker punch to stop someone)
8. Nieuwendyk

You've got to be kidding:

Turgeon
H. Sedin

I'm with you on everything but Oates. Slide him down to 7 and that's a great list.
 

DieSendungmitderMaus

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Apr 14, 2018
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Sedin is an interesting case who's really hurt by the neutral and defensive zone limitation. To me he seemed to have a real positive defensive impact, but mostly because he helped his team have so much of the puck. Teammates helped of course.
 

frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Sep 14, 2017
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My list is in no particular order. We're rating these centers on defensive abilities only. Either in their own zone or neutral zone.


Oates
Lindros
Thornton
Messier
H. Sedin
Roenick
Damphousse
Sundin
Modano
Crosby
Turgeon
Nieuwendyk
Crosby
Modano
Messier
Roenick
Sundin
Oates
Turgeon
Damphousse
Thornton
Nieuwendyk
Lindros
H.Sedin

My Best-Carey
 
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wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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That was by design. I tried thinking of elite centers whose defensive game is not discussed much. So I didn't put any easy ones in here like Carbonneau or Bergeron.

That said, many of these players received Selke votes. My guess is that Modano and Oates probably have the most high Selke finished on this list. Others barely sniffed any votes from memory.


I agree with Farkas as Modano was the story of 2 tales here, early mike then under Hitchcock.
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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i wonder if we could change that to

borderline elite: modano
very good: damphousse
good:
above average: these two levels would contain some distribution of oates, thornton in the last half decade or so, crosby, lindros, messier, nieuwendyk
not a liability: sundin, sedin
turgeon: turgeon


I'd probably go with some version of this but Crosby might end up a bit higher as he ages, time will tell.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
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When he was shifted to centre in Montreal he became, rather quickly, an excellent defensive forward. He fully embraced all of the defensive responsibilities of a centre and played a very well rounded game for Montreal.

You probably saw a lot more of him than I did so I'll take your word for it.

Still, excellent defensive forwards (especially centers) usually get some Selke consideration, even if its just a few votes. 17 of 18 seasons Damphousse got zero votes. Its odd.
 
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Regal

Registered User
Mar 12, 2010
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Vancouver
Sedin is an interesting case who's really hurt by the neutral and defensive zone limitation. To me he seemed to have a real positive defensive impact, but mostly because he helped his team have so much of the puck. Teammates helped of course.

I think 2011 kind of ruined his reputation as well. The Sedins pretty much went all out offensively that year and in the playoffs it burned them more than it should have. In most years I'd say Henrik was solid enough in his own zone, and actually quite good in '13, '14 (pre-Torts meltdown) and '15 by scoring forward standards. His biggest issue was lack of foot speed back checking on turnovers. He was the king of hooking penalties to try to stop odd man rushes
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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I wonder what exactly there is to Sundin being ranked so lowly by some? From my recollections, mostly having seen him on Team Sweden, he was definitely a reassuring presence on the ice in most situations, including high pressure defensive ones. I also wonder if players like Sedin and Thornton are benefiting in people’s minds from having adapted their game in more recent memory?

I also recognize that there is some obvious difficulty and loads of subjectivity in ranking awesome offensive/possession players within these boundaries.

Not understanding the characterization of Sundin being a poor defensive center either. Prime Sundin in Toronto wasn't exactly a prolific high point producer and never really felt like he scarified the defense for more scoring.

He never benefited from the narrative story arc of the wholesale defensive transformation into a Selke beast though, but shift to shift he was just a positionally responsible, very consistent, workmanlike in his approach. Like you said, a reassuring presence on the ice in pretty much all situations, took the big defensive faceoffs, etc. He also had the puck a lot, so I don't remember him performing desperate heroics under siege either.
 

GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Jul 21, 2017
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Not understanding the characterization of Sundin being a poor defensive center either. Prime Sundin in Toronto wasn't exactly a prolific high point producer and never really felt like he scarified the defense for more scoring.

He never benefited from the narrative story arc of the wholesale defensive transformation into a Selke beast though, but shift to shift he was just a positionally responsible, very consistent, workmanlike in his approach. Like you said, a reassuring presence on the ice in pretty much all situations, took the big defensive faceoffs, etc. He also had the puck a lot, so I don't remember him performing desperate heroics under siege either.

It may surprise a lot of people that Sundin ranks in the top ten all-time in Shorthanded points.

He must have spent a lot of time on the PK. I remember Toronto would use him as the lone forward PK'er in five on three situations.

NHL.com Stats
 

psycat

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Oct 25, 2016
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Sundin was great defensively any list having him close to the bottom here is very hard to take seriously(same for people putting Crosby near the top).
 

GMR

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Sundin was great defensively any list having him close to the bottom here is very hard to take seriously(same for people putting Crosby near the top).
I don't believe he ever received a single Selke vote in his entire career. Calling him "great" defensively is an exaggeration.
 

GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
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I don't believe he ever received a single Selke vote in his entire career. Calling him "great" defensively is an exaggeration.

He finished in the 30s in Selke voting a couple of times.

Not a huge accomplishment or anything, but he did get votes in his career.
 

GMR

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He finished in the 30s in Selke voting a couple of times.

Not a huge accomplishment or anything, but he did get votes in his career.
I guess that sort of counts. Not really, though. Anything outside of top 1o or 15 doesn't have much weight honestly. Didn't Probert get Selke votes too?
 

Trap Jesus

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Feb 13, 2012
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He finished in the 30s in Selke voting a couple of times.

Not a huge accomplishment or anything, but he did get votes in his career.
Not saying this is the be-all-end-all but his 2 times getting any votes equated to the following votes:

2003: 2 5th place votes
2008: 2 3rd place votes, 1 5th place vote
 

psycat

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Oct 25, 2016
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I don't believe he ever received a single Selke vote in his entire career. Calling him "great" defensively is an exaggeration.

Well depends on definition of great I suppose, one of the best defensive centers in the game? No but certainly well above average as far as high point producing ones and on the national team he was certainly great.

Let's just say defending a 1 goal lead I wouldn't scream at the coach to pull him off the ice.
 

JianYang

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
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I don't recall Damphousse being that good defensively.

I don't recall him being a poor defensive player, but I didn't expect his name to to show up. I don't even think he was a full time center on Montreal until around 96. I can't recall if he played center on the oilers or leafs, but on the habs, he was already well into his career before he even became a full time center.
 

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