rank the following players from best to worst based on raw natural talent and skill

gotyournose

Registered User
Oct 24, 2019
385
149
Rank the following forwards from best to worst based raw talent alone

Denis Savard, Dale hawerchuk, Gilbert Perreault, Marcel Dionne, Joe Thornton, Jean Ratelle, Darryl sittler, Adam Oates, Joe Nieuwendyk

Ignore statistics and individual awards and achievements, judge them on the eye test

In terms of defenceman, please rank the following defenceman from best to worst based on talent

Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty, Shea Weber, Scott Niedermayer, Rob Blake
 
Last edited:

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,667
16,392
Forward : A lot to digest for a quick answer. I'll start by putting Oates and Nieuwendyk last.

Dionne - Perreault - Hawerchuk - Savard - Thornton/Sittler - Oates - Niewendyuk

Abstaining with Ratelle.

(Edited due to correction being made to the first post - keeping both rankings though)

ON RAW TALENT/EYETEST
Neidermayer, Doughty, Keith. Blake and Weber are a wash (one was a faster, the other has better puck skills and is probably a bit stronger)

ON (ACCRUED) VALUE
Keith, Doughty, Niedermayer. Blake and Weber are still a wash.
 
Last edited:

gotyournose

Registered User
Oct 24, 2019
385
149
Forward : A lot to digest for a quick answer. I'll start by putting Oates and Nieuwendyk last.

Defense : (You might want to reword something, because you seem to be asking for opposites)

ON RAW TALENT/EYETEST
Neidermayer, Doughty, Keith. Blake and Weber are a wash (one was a faster, the other has better puck skills and is probably a bit stronger)

ON (ACCRUED) VALUE
Keith, Doughty, Niedermayer. Blake and Weber are still a wash.


Fixed the defense question maybe. What did you think that I meant originally?
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,667
16,392
Fixed the defense question maybe. What did you think that I meant originally?

Well, value. Career value. Not quite the same as "raw talent" or "eyetest" when Scott Niedermayer is part of the question.
 

JackSlater

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
18,041
12,661
Perreault, Thornton, Dionne, Savard, Hawerchuk, (Ratelle), Sittler, Oates, Nieuwendyk

Niedermayer, Doughty, Keith, Weber, Blake

I haven't really seen enough of Ratelle to comfortably judge him.
 

frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Sep 14, 2017
3,553
2,643
Northern Hemisphere
Perreault, Dionne, Savard, Ratelle, Thornton, Hawerchuk, Oates, Nieuwendyk.

Blake, Weber, Doughty, Niedermayer, Keith.

My Best-Carey
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,130
6,428
In terms of SKILL... my eyes tell me that.

I started watching NHL hockey back when i played hockey in the 1970's, so this old fogey thinks...

1. Perreault
2. Hawerchuk
.
.
3. Sittler
4. Dionne
.
.
5. Oates
6. Thornton
7. Nieuwendyk
8. Savard

Note: I have limited memory of Ratelle. He is somewhere 3.5 to 6.5 on the above ranking.

The dmen are so much more recent...

1. Scott Niedermayer. Hands down. Seriously. A tier above. Hands, speed, agility, sense, shot... elite. If he had more size and grit he'd be top-8 d all time.

2. Drew Doughty. Hands down.

Hmm....

3. Shea Weber
4. Duncan Keith
5. Rob Blake... But the best *** man. No one can get beat him outside by the boards and only MacInnis, Prongs, Weber and Bourque were scarier from the point on the pp.

Dmen today lack equivalent superheroes.

Erik Karlsson 5 years ago (and Weber-Suter as a duo in Nashvillle)... flawed but worthy membership of the legion of awesome dmen who have passed us by. .. Sigh...
 
Last edited:

scott clam

Registered User
Sep 12, 2018
1,108
532
Hard to compare skill and talent levels of guys like Oates and Nieuwendyk, who had such different skill sets.

Perreault and Savard are probably most pleasing to the eye among forwards though...
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,130
6,428
Thornton in the skill dep't ain't in the same zip code as Hawerchuk.

If they had a skills contest, ONLY in passing would Joe win. Not skating. Not shooting. Not accuracy, not speed, not stickhandling. Not even in backchecking.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BenchBrawl

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
13,628
What is talent? A guy like Denis Savard made crazy moves and plays, but was he more "talented" than Joe Thornton?

I have no idea how to answer the OP's question. Only thing I'm sure is that Gilbert Perreault is #1 regardless. Perreault went beyond sick moves, his entire being was emanating hockey talent at every step.

The same goes for the defensemen. Weber is not a beautiful skater, but he had a ton of talents with his physicality, on-ice presence, slap shot, defensive play, etc.
 

scott clam

Registered User
Sep 12, 2018
1,108
532
Thornton in the skill dep't ain't in the same zip code as Hawerchuk.

If they had a skills contest, ONLY in passing would Joe win. Not skating. Not shooting. Not accuracy, not speed, not stickhandling. Not even in backchecking.
on the other hand players like Oates and Thornton are so disproportionately advantaged in one area, it almost demands a "formula" of compensation. If such a thing were possible.

Edit: I apologize for submitting this as incomplete earlier, the cat kept sitting on my keyboard.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
13,628
In terms of SKILL... my eyes tell me that.

I started watching NHL hockey back when i played hockey in the 1970's, so this old fogey thinks...

1. Perreault
2. Hawerchuk
.
.
3. Sittler
4. Dionne
.
.
5. Oates
6. Thornton
7. Nieuwendyk
8. Savard

Note: I have limited memory of Ratelle. He is somewhere 3.5 to 6.5 on the above ranking.

The dmen are so much more recent...

1. Scott Niedermayer. Hands down. Seriously. A tier above. Hands, speed, agility, sense, shot... elite. If he had more size and grit he'd be top-8 d all time.

2. Drew Doughty. Hands down.

Hmm....

3. Shea Weber
4. Duncan Keith
5. Rob Blake... But the best *** man. No one can get beat him outside by the boards and only MacInnis, Prongs, Weber and Bourque were scarier from the point on the pp.

Dmen today lack equivalent superheroes.

Erik Karlsson 5 years ago (and Weber-Suter as a duo in Nashvillle)... flawed but worthy membership of the legion of awesome dmen who have passed us by. .. Sigh...

Pretty good. I'm curious why you ranked Denis Savard so low though. Guy had sick hands and agility.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,130
6,428
Pretty good. I'm curious why you ranked Denis Savard so low though. Guy had sick hands and agility.
Always thought him more impressive in flashy moments than the trenches. He'd look so-so in a game but on the 6 o'clock news his two best moments stood out. In 15 years of ATDing i have never drafted Denis Savard because he never drops to where my eyes told me he belongs.

Serge Savard, by the way, originated the "Savard Spinorama". Everyone my age knows that. Some youngum in the 1990's uploaded erronously a Denis video of it and generations have been googling it since.

Denis wasn't a stitch better than Larmer but he was riskier, less committed to responsible play, more likely to go north-south, even if Mess would strip the puck and go straight the other way to score. Mess owned Savard.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: BenchBrawl

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
13,628
Always thought him more impressive in flashy moments than the trenches. He'd look so-so in a game vut on the 6 o'clock news his two best moments stood out. In 15 years of ATDing i have never drafted Denis Savard because he never srops to where my eyes told me he belongs.

Serge Savard, by the way, originated the "Savard Spinorama". Everyone my age knows that. Some youngum in the 1990's uploaded erronously a Denis video of it and generations have been googling it since.

Denis wasn't a stitch better than Larmer but he was riskier, less committed to responsible play, more likely to go north-south, even if Mess would strip the puck and go straight the other way to score. Mess owned Savard.

Fair enough, I see what you mean.

Funny you mention the (Serge) Savard spinorama, this was always one of Canadiens1958's main point about Serge's great skating. According to C1958 he learned it from Doug Harvey (who you can see doing the spinorama in the few highlights we have of him).
 
  • Like
Reactions: VanIslander

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,667
16,392
Funny you mention the (Serge) Savard spinorama, this was always one of Canadiens1958's main point about Serge's great skating. According to C1958 he learned it from Doug Harvey (who you can see doing the spinorama in the few highlights we have of him).

Completely off-topic but that's really odd reading this sentence at the past tense :cry:
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,130
6,428
If i wasn't such a huge Larry Robinson fan (i modeled my game after him, as a young dman as a kid, even though Dryden was my biggest hero)... i'd have been Serge Savard's biggest fan.

I loved Dryden, Big Bird and Serge... the Flower was a distant fourth...
 

Staniowski

Registered User
Jan 13, 2018
3,508
3,057
The Maritimes
Always thought him more impressive in flashy moments than the trenches. He'd look so-so in a game but on the 6 o'clock news his two best moments stood out. In 15 years of ATDing i have never drafted Denis Savard because he never drops to where my eyes told me he belongs.

Serge Savard, by the way, originated the "Savard Spinorama". Everyone my age knows that. Some youngum in the 1990's uploaded erronously a Denis video of it and generations have been googling it since.

Denis wasn't a stitch better than Larmer but he was riskier, less committed to responsible play, more likely to go north-south, even if Mess would strip the puck and go straight the other way to score. Mess owned Savard.
Yes, a lot of people mistakenly thought the Savardian Spinorama referred to Denis, as he had his own spin moves.

Danny Gallivan thought of it during a trip to the Bay Area, and used it that game for Serge.

But I think Danny used the term spinorama prior to that too, more generically.

Great skating Ds - Harvey, Orr, etc. - used those spin moves frequently.
 
Last edited:

frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Sep 14, 2017
3,553
2,643
Northern Hemisphere
Funny how you and I agree on forwards and completely disagree on defensemen.
I was thinking Blake and Weber kind of stood out because of their size, hitting, and big shots. Niedermayer and Keith a little more nuanced in positioning and smarts though obviously lots of skill, too.

My Best-Carey
 

Nick Hansen

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
3,119
2,649
Seems like I am alone so far but I'd put Doughty first in terms of 'natural talent'. There is nothing he can't do very well.
 

Habsfan18

The Hockey Library
May 13, 2003
30,614
8,625
Ontario
Raw talent/skill level?

1. Perreault
2. Dionne
3. Savard
4. Hawerchuk
5. Thornton
6. Ratelle
7. Sittler
8. Oates
9. Nieuwendyk

1. Niedermayer
2. Doughty
3. Weber
4. Keith
5. Blake
 

Big Phil

Registered User
Nov 2, 2003
31,703
4,144
Rank the following forwards from best to worst based raw talent alone

Denis Savard, Dale hawerchuk, Gilbert Perreault, Marcel Dionne, Joe Thornton, Jean Ratelle, Darryl sittler, Adam Oates, Joe Nieuwendyk

Hmmmm, good one.

Savard
Perreault
Oates
Dionne
Ratelle
Hawerchuk
Thornton
Sittler
Nieuwendyk

Between Savard and Perreault, heck, it is a coin flip. There are maybe as many players on one hand that were as pretty and elegant to watch as Perreault and few who could skate so fluidly like him. On the other hand Savard could do spinoramas on NHL defensemen mid-rush and beat them. It is really hard to say.

Maybe some are wondering why Oates is so high. His sweet hands and those playmaking skills alone make up this high. I don't know if the guy ever made a bad pass in his life. I thought of putting Nieuwendyk higher based on the ability from his lacrosse days to deflect the puck from a hand/eye perspective.

Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty, Shea Weber, Scott Niedermayer, Rob Blake

Doughty
Niedermayer
Weber
Keith
Blake

I just don't think Niedermayer showed us this raw talent enough. Way too much holding back early in his career for him to be #1. I think Weber's shot has to be taken into account here as well.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->