Rank the Defensemen

[Outlaw Samurai]

This is a great and difficult ranking. No real surprises accept the Hagg and Schlemko picks

I'd be happy if any one of the big 4 became the clear number 1.

Keep em all! We are going to have a great, young, mobile D for years

 

[Beef Invictus]

Wow, tough.

Sanheim 1.a
Ghost 1.b
Provy 1.c

All three of Sanheim/Provy/Ghost are really freaking close for me.

Myers 2

The difference b/w Sanheim, Ghost and Provy is offence favours Sandy and Ghost. I LOVE Provy too, don't get me wrong. All three are capable of defending and playing big minutes with great vision, and IQ.

I do think Sanheim has the highest ceiling, Ghost the best offence and Provy probably the highest floor.

I wouldn't trade TRADE ANY OF THESE 3

Myers 4th for obvious reason of he hasn't proven anything yet.

Thing thing with Provorov is that, even as the weakest offensively of the three, he is not slouch at driving the play up ice and applying timely offensive pressure. He is no defensive dman.

He might not be able to throw a team off balance while he has the puck like Sanheim or Ghost can but he is really good at getting in the right spot or pinching or recognizing when to pinch or keep it and drive the net.

We are really lucky to have all three.

 

[Outlaw Samurai]

Thing thing with Provorov is that, even as the weakest offensively of the three, he is not slouch at driving the play up ice and applying timely offensive pressure. He is no defensive dman.

He might not be able to throw a team off balance while he has the puck like Sanheim or Ghost can but he is really good at getting in the right spot or pinching or recognizing when to pinch or keep it and drive the net.

We are really lucky to have all three.

Agree with everything you said. He's very subtle and is no liability offensively. He has a great first pass and is incredibly smart at reading plays. His numbers last year proved he has a knack for offence.

It was an impossible task as whomever is put at 3 feels too low and unfair. It's why I tried the 1a, 1b, 1c tactic.

 

[Striiker]

Thing thing with Provorov is that, even as the weakest offensively of the three, he is not slouch at driving the play up ice and applying timely offensive pressure. He is no defensive dman.

He might not be able to throw a team off balance while he has the puck like Sanheim or Ghost can but he is really good at getting in the right spot or pinching or recognizing when to pinch or keep it and drive the net.

We are really lucky to have all three.

And KEEP all three.

Provorov is horrible on the PP, but he's definitely no slouch offensively at 5v5. Having 4 great two way defensemen in the top 4 would be pretty nuts. I look forward to Myers proving he belongs as the 4th. Then all we need is some decent guys for the bottom pair and we're in amazing shape, especially with Hart in net.

 

[PALE PWNR]

Provy
Ghosty
Sanheimy
Myersy

 

[kudymen]

156. Schlemko

That's great value we have got for 1.000.977. Folin

 

[Alex K]

Not sure how I should rank them. Since there aren't other prospects in the poll, I ranked them as of now.
1. Provorov
2. Gostisbehere
3. Sanheim
4. Gudas
5. Myers
6. Hagg
7. Schlemko
N/A. Morin

1. Ivan is the most complete all-around dman on the team. Successfully handles toughest defensive minutes and, as the last season showed, is a deadly offensive weapon. Needs to improve his puck-handling though.

2. Ghost is one of the best QB's in the league. His unbelievable quickness is pretty much unique for his position. Due to his lack of size he can't do certain things in defense but he's not as bad in his own zone as some people think. (Also, playing with Amac doesn't help him, it hasn't helped anyone actually.)

3. Sanheim is already our 3rd best dman despite playing only his first full season in NHL. He's really good on both offense and defense in conjunction with his size we can see a nice picture of a great dman he can become. Won't be surprised if he moves up to the 2nd or even 1st position on this list down the road.

4. Gudas. I was really down on him last season and wanted him gone ASAP. Well, he made me eat crow this season. He plays like a legit top 4 dman.

5. Myers has been amazing for Phantoms but I can't put him higher until he plays enough NHL games.

6. Hagg is already a legit 6th/7th NHL dman. He has the potential to become a solid 3rd-pair guy, but he should improve his hockey IQ.

7. Schlemko. Not sure what is this guy doing in this poll while being in AHL and why there's no Amac (I have a special place for him on this list).

N/A. Morin. Got nothing to say about him, let's see if he still can play hockey.

 

[Audible Velvet]

Tough one. Really, top 3 are so close in value.
#1 Sanheim, I think he is the whole package in the near future and his talent is undeniable
#2 Provy, he will shape back into the stud workhorse (kind of already is)
#3 Ghost, so very gifted, but I begrudgingly put him here because I think Travis can do at least close to what he can offensively while everything else at least as well
#4 Myers, just need to see him up and in the lineup to confirm what's suspected

Honorable mention to Radko because he's had a really solid and probably underrated tenure with the team.
I just hope big Sam comes in, grabs a third pair spot and menaces some forwards. Also think he could do better getting the puck out of the zone than a couple current starters.

 

[Rebels57]

I feel like the significant age gap between Provorov and Ghost is often ignored when comparing the two of them.

 

[deadhead]

Now, Provorov, Ghost/Sanheim, Gudas
In two years, Provorov, Myers, Sanheim, Zamula, Ghost

Provorov struggled the first half, but since the All Star break has played like a #1 D-man, playing huge minutes for a 22 year old, skating with confidence and not making brain dead passes. He's showing flashes of his ultimate upside, which is just below Doughty as a two way defenseman. He has the offensive skills of a scoring forward, just has to refine that wrist shot and he could score 20 goals a year. He's strong enough to go to the net and smart enough to know when to do so.

Myers is a projection, but you just can't teach 6'5 220+ with speed, a big shot from the point and all around skill. I put his upside over Sanheim due to his size and strength, which combined with his reach could make him a dominant defenseman at both ends of the ice.

Sanheim is developing in his second season, which is no surprise, and he should make a jump when they move him back to LHD, where he's more comfortable. He needs more offensive polish, but won't take the next step if he doesn't fill out a bit, add more strength and play with an edge. He's not going to be the physical monster like Myers/Morin, but he needs to be able to hold his own in the D-zone and win more battles than he loses. He's got more offensive skill than Myers, but will never strike fear into the hearts of smurfs.

Ghost is what he is, Mark Streit jr, a top offensive defenseman and PP QB, who you ideally shelter at 5x5 so he doesn't deal with top lines/physical lines. He's always going to struggle in the D-zone moving people out of the crease and he tends to avoid board battles or attacking the net on offense, he's best on the perimeter, directing traffic and shooting through a scrum. Ghost doesn't have elite speed or burst after his injury, so that limits him going forward, he can't just skate past people like he did as a rookie.

Zamula is the wild card, I don't know if he's as good as some have rated him, a great junior season, but it's so hard to project him three years from now because of that body, like Ghost he has good but not great speed, so he needs to fill out and be able to hold his own (he showed the willingness to mix it up in TC, but with that body he's going to get rag dolled in the NHL). If he can get to 200+ without slowing down he may end up better than Ghost.

Morin is another wild card, is he a bigger, faster version of Hagg (stiff physical defenseman who struggles with quick, agile players) or just a late bloomer who will "shock the nation" once healthy. He's not going to be a huge offensive force, but if he can play the Gudas role at the point he can be productive. But it's on defense where he'll have to make his mark as an "enforcer," a guy who can just skate anyone out of the crease, stop 2 on 1s with his incredible reach, etc.

Hogberg is an unknown to me, but Appleyard loves this guy. Not a big point producer right now but he's not asked to so so in the SHL. I'd like to see hm at LHV next year and see what we have, but he sounds like the perfect defensive defenseman for today's game, smart, mobile, skilled.

 

[wankstifier]

I feel like the significant age gap between Provorov and Ghost is often ignored when comparing the two of them.

I don’t think that matters. They have about the same service time. Gostisbehere’s development path and injury history delayed his arrival to the NHL.

If a player has big league talent, my understanding is that it will show with enough opportunity and experience. Provorov has gotten more freedom to develop than Gostisbehere. There’s no switch that’ll flip when he turns 26.

The age gap doesn’t indicate that Provorov has more room to grow. He’s probably not going to develop puck skills or shiftiness with age. The Flyers also shouldn’t waste time expecting more offensive ability to develop. They already have 3 defenders more naturally suited to offensive play.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I feel like the significant age gap between Provorov and Ghost is often ignored when comparing the two of them.

Yes and no.

Provorov has 3 years of pro hockey and 225 NHL games under his belt. Ghost at 4 years and 284 games. And when you account for raw minutes, they are even closer.

Provorov isn’t some late bloomer that you expect to show another level or two in his late 20s. I don’t want to say this is the best he’s ever going to be at 22, but I’m skeptical that he’s going to blossom into the Norris candidate that everyone expected.

One of the things you have to ask yourself is, is Provorov ever going to show enough poise in the OZ to run a PP anything close to the way that Ghost did and does? Ghost was exceptional right out of the gate at age 22 in this department. Do we really expect Provorov to suddenly be more deceptive, and make quicker, better decisions with the puck? It’s not exactly a SSS we are dealing with. Those aren’t really skills that develop over time. You generally either have em or you don’t.

Ghost has shown signs of being a play driver as well. Provorov has yet to be a consistent play driver, with the exception being, last year when Gostisbehere was his partner. Yes he plays difficult minutes, but he also gets to play a bunch with a Selke candidate that often gets the better of the same tough minutes.

 

[deadhead]

Provorov is not going to be a PP QB. But at ES he's going to get better offensively, primarily by improving the accuracy of his wrist shot and using his skating ability.

I think up to now he's focused on defense, but he's starting to get more adventuresome with the puck, skating it up ice instead of making the first easy pass, and he's a better skater than I thought. I think his improvements will be incremental, as he expands his offensive role he'll play more aggresively, carrying the puck into the D-zone and forcing the defense to come to him before dishing the puck to a teammate.

All players have some limitations, Provorov doesn't seem to have the great offensive vision of Ghost or Giroux, but he's got all the requisite skills to be a top offensive defensemen 5x5, but instead of being the primary playmaker his edge will be his ability to play like a 4th forward, attacking the net and even chasing the puck along the boards where he uses leverage to win battles, and his first rate wrist shot.

 

[Rebels57]

Yes and no.

Provorov has 3 years of pro hockey and 225 NHL games under his belt. Ghost at 4 years and 284 games. And when you account for raw minutes, they are even closer.

Provorov isn’t some late bloomer that you expect to show another level or two in his late 20s. I don’t want to say this is the best he’s ever going to be at 22, but I’m skeptical that he’s going to blossom into the Norris candidate that everyone expected.

One of the things you have to ask yourself is, is Provorov ever going to show enough poise in the OZ to run a PP anything close to the way that Ghost did and does? Ghost was exceptional right out of the gate at age 22 in this department. Do we really expect Provorov to suddenly be more deceptive, and make quicker, better decisions with the puck? It’s not exactly a SSS we are dealing with. Those aren’t really skills that develop over time. You generally either have em or you don’t.

Ghost has shown signs of being a play driver as well. Provorov has yet to be a consistent play driver, with the exception being, last year when Gostisbehere was his partner. Yes he plays difficult minutes, but he also gets to play a bunch with a Selke candidate that often gets the better of the same tough minutes.

22 year old defensemen are rarely a finished product, so yes, I do expect Provorov to improve over the next 2-3 years at least. It's not just about games played when comparing age; it's about mental development.

 

[FLYguy3911]

22 year old defensemen are rarely a finished product, so yes, I do expect Provorov to improve over the next 2-3 years at least. It's not just about games played when comparing age; it's about mental development.

He’ll probably improve but how much? Wasn’t he supposed to have “generational” hockey sense? How much mental development can we expect? Is he going to ever be anywhere close to Gostisbehere on the PP?

Are we forgetting the impact Gostisbehere made as a 22 year old rookie? Provy hasn’t come close to that level yet. When you bring up the age argument, you gotta at least look at what the other guy did at the same age.

 

[Rebels57]

He’ll probably improve but how much? Wasn’t he supposed to have “generational” hockey sense? Is he going to ever be anywhere close to Gostisbehere on the PP?

Are we forgetting the impact Gostisbehere made as a 22 year old rookie? Provy hasn’t come close to that level yet.

I'm not all that concerned with the PP. Just take him off it for Sanheim and let him be an ES/PK specialist. Will Ghost ever match Provorovs ES goal production from last season? Probably not.

I'm not forgetting anything. I love Ghost and feel like hes gotten a raw deal this year by both coaching (his partners have been atrocious and the PP coaching has been atrocious) and by fans.

Longterm, I think Provorov is a more important defensemen but thats not a slight to Ghost.

 

[Stizzle]

Yes and no.

Provorov has 3 years of pro hockey and 225 NHL games under his belt. Ghost at 4 years and 284 games. And when you account for raw minutes, they are even closer.

Provorov isn’t some late bloomer that you expect to show another level or two in his late 20s. I don’t want to say this is the best he’s ever going to be at 22, but I’m skeptical that he’s going to blossom into the Norris candidate that everyone expected.

One of the things you have to ask yourself is, is Provorov ever going to show enough poise in the OZ to run a PP anything close to the way that Ghost did and does? Ghost was exceptional right out of the gate at age 22 in this department. Do we really expect Provorov to suddenly be more deceptive, and make quicker, better decisions with the puck? It’s not exactly a SSS we are dealing with. Those aren’t really skills that develop over time. You generally either have em or you don’t.

Ghost has shown signs of being a play driver as well. Provorov has yet to be a consistent play driver, with the exception being, last year when Gostisbehere was his partner. Yes he plays difficult minutes, but he also gets to play a bunch with a Selke candidate that often gets the better of the same tough minutes.

He’ll probably improve but how much? Wasn’t he supposed to have “generational” hockey sense? How much mental development can we expect? Is he going to ever be anywhere close to Gostisbehere on the PP?

Are we forgetting the impact Gostisbehere made as a 22 year old rookie? Provy hasn’t come close to that level yet. When you bring up the age argument, you gotta at least look at what the other guy did at the same age.

Ok, good posts, but we all know neither of those 2 are your #1.

 

[Audible Velvet]

You're swaying me FLYguy. I do think Provy has a bit of headroom, but I don't expect leaps and bounds.

 

[FLYguy3911]

I'm not all that concerned with the PP. Just take him off it for Sanheim and let him be an ES/PK specialist. Will Ghost ever match Provorovs ES goal production from last season? Probably not.

I'm not forgetting anything. I love Ghost and feel like hes gotten a raw deal this year by both coaching (his partners have been atrocious and the PP coaching has been atrocious) and by fans.

Longterm, I think Provorov is a more important defensemen but thats not a slight to Ghost.

Will Provorov ever match Provorov’s ES goal production from last year?

When you are comparing two players, evaluating them in a high leverage situation like the PP is kind of a big deal. It’s like saying Provorov is better defensively and someone coming back and saying we don’t need Gostisbehere to be good defensively.

Provorov is a good player. I just think people put him on a pedestal because of what they thought and hoped he’d become. I’m not seeing too many compelling arguments for why he is better than Ghost.

Ok, good posts, but we all know neither of those 2 are your #1.

Correct. Ginning is a player.

 

[deadhead]

Provorov is a 25-30 minutes a night defensemen who can be matched up against the other team's top line and still give you 30-40 ES points a year.
Guys like that are rare, like maybe a dozen in the entire NHL?
And he just turned 22.

 

[Rebels57]

Will Provorov ever match Provorov’s ES goal production from last year?

When you are comparing two players, evaluating them in a high leverage situation like the PP is kind of a big deal. It’s like saying Provorov is better defensively and someone coming back and saying we don’t need Gostisbehere to be good defensively.

Provorov is a good player. I just think people put him on a pedestal because of what they thought and hoped he’d become. I’m not seeing too many compelling arguments for why he is better than Ghost.


Correct. Ginning is a player.

Ok

 

[Hakroach]

My friend Jeff told me his #1 choice is missing from the list so I should refuse to vote.

 

[Stizzle]

Correct. Ginning is a player.

 

[Johnk0728]

Yes and no.

Provorov has 3 years of pro hockey and 225 NHL games under his belt. Ghost at 4 years and 284 games. And when you account for raw minutes, they are even closer.

Provorov isn’t some late bloomer that you expect to show another level or two in his late 20s. I don’t want to say this is the best he’s ever going to be at 22, but I’m skeptical that he’s going to blossom into the Norris candidate that everyone expected.

One of the things you have to ask yourself is, is Provorov ever going to show enough poise in the OZ to run a PP anything close to the way that Ghost did and does? Ghost was exceptional right out of the gate at age 22 in this department. Do we really expect Provorov to suddenly be more deceptive, and make quicker, better decisions with the puck? It’s not exactly a SSS we are dealing with. Those aren’t really skills that develop over time. You generally either have em or you don’t.

Ghost has shown signs of being a play driver as well. Provorov has yet to be a consistent play driver, with the exception being, last year when Gostisbehere was his partner. Yes he plays difficult minutes, but he also gets to play a bunch with a Selke candidate that often gets the better of the same tough minutes.

D-man historically are known to not become in their prime until later in their careers. The Provorov or Gostisbehere thing needs to stop. All the Gostisbehere fans feel like they have to knock Provorov in order to make "their" guy stand out. Provorov has the bigger upside and is skating a ton of minutes at a young age. Gostisbehere will never be that kind of d-man. Gostisbehere is skating #4 dman minutes and will continue to do that. He is a good PP d-man. Nothing wrong with that. Its weird...... you guys ripped people for saying that Couturier at 22 will never be a Selke candidate but its ok to say that Provorov at 22 does not have any more growth left???!?!? That's where your analysis in this area fall on deaf ears....its driven by fan boi love. I will admit and love that I was wrong about Couturier. You guys will never say that Provorov is good. Confirmation biasness at its best. I like both Provorov and Gostisbehere. But I am tired of hearing all the 'Ghost" fans being so protective of him that they have rip another Flyer unwarranted. You can fawn love on him and say that he is elite etc. (even though most Hockey people will disagree) but stop ripping Provorov in your Gostisbehere analysis. When Provorov sucks; say he sucks. Same with Gostisbehere.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I wasn't going to be convinced, but using an "i" in fan boi swayed me. I'm incapable of having an opinion.

Just let people disagree without calling into doubt everything short of their family tree. If someone likes Hagg or MacDonald or even Dave Hakstol, that's cool. I'm glad you could get some enjoyment from it and I don't think it means you need an outline to put together an honest thought.