Pre-Game Talk: Rangers vs Water Fowl - 12/19/17 - 7pm ET

[darko]

If you want Vesey to be paired with a playmaker, trade him to another team.

No team wants him .... since apparently he's not a NHL player.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Vesey > Carey, and I would run a fourth line of Desharnais-Nieves-Vesey. DD on a top 9 wing is interesting, but none of our other wingers deserve the demotion right now. If AV insists on taking out a centre, I don't mind it being Boo for a game or two. He's a bit of an offensive black hole and he hasn't been that good for a few games. I don't want him stuck in the pressbox by any means, but being there for a short time can be a teaching experience on its own.

 

[aufheben]

@Irishguy42 Don't mean to be a buzzkill but can we hold off on the Pre-Game threads until like within ~24h of the puck drop, or when there are like 3+ days off? 3 GDTs for every game might be a bit much. Not your fault, the Pre-/Post-Game Thread tags are the same color unlike prior to the migration.

 

[Irishguy42]

@Irishguy42 Don't mean to be a buzzkill but can we hold off on the Pre-Game threads until like within ~24h of the puck drop, or when there are like 3+ days off? 3 GDTs for every game might be a bit much. Not your fault, the Pre-/Post-Game Thread tags are the same color unlike prior to the migration.

Sure.

I just can't help it while I'm bored out of my mind at work

 

[bl02]

I've defended the coach but if DD goes 4th line over Boo I think that is a mistake on many different fronts. The Kid has been playing responsibly in all three zones. He's learning and really hasn't been that much of a liability. Weird but DD should probably only play if Mika comes out for any reason. Kreider and Buch are good enough to carry him

 

[will1066]

I weirdly agree that it should be first line or bust.

 

[will1066]

Can't wait to take on Teemu Salami and Paul Korea.

 

[kovazub94]

Nieves gets tough love rookie treatment. I don't see a problem with it if it is just one game or two and he's rotating with DD going forward. Creates competition. My only problem is that if the team wins despite DD playing poorly then AV will keep him in the lineup regardless.

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

Nieves drove that 4th line with Carey and Vesey making occasional plays. I think if anything DD should come in for Vesey or Carey. And kreider and buch didn’t hold up DD they played well in spite of him. They could’ve had double the production with Mika or Miller in

 

[Irishguy42]

Well....Ducks are probably mad after last night.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Its misdirection to talk about Desharnais coming out. We have two 13th forwards on the 4th line wings who should come out before Nieves and Desharnais, but Carey and Vesey aren't easy targets in the same way that Desharnais is. Desharnais puts up points, he's 1/2, Vesey's 1/3, Carey 1/4. The guy who's 1/2, which is rather good for the NHL, should not be coming out.

 

[Mac n Gs]

DD isn’t suited to play on the 4th line in the role that AV uses it. They’re a cycling, forechecking line, and DD is terrible along the boards and in the defensive zone. He’s a good depth offensive option, but his primary points have only come from playing with much better players than he, and he isn’t a good enough C to usurp linemates from Mika, Miller, or Hayes.

I don’t dislike him as a depth offensive guy, but I think the fully healthy forward lineup is better overall without him in it.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

DD isn’t suited to play on the 4th line in the role that AV uses it. They’re a cycling, forechecking line, and DD is terrible along the boards and in the defensive zone. He’s a good depth offensive option, but his primary points have only come from playing with much better players than he, and he isn’t a good enough C to usurp linemates from Mika, Miller, or Hayes.

I don’t dislike him as a depth offensive guy, but I think the fully healthy forward lineup is better overall without him in it.

So why don't we make our fourth line good again, move Fast to the fourth line and play Desharnais on the third line? Our 4th line now includes Desharnais who as you mentioned is not a fourth liner nor is he a center and it includes two 13th forwards. Thats not an NHL line.

 

[Captain Lindy]

 

[Captain Lindy]

Well....Ducks are probably mad after last night.

My thoughts exactly. They will be hungry for a win after losing two in a row now. This game worries me a bit.

 

[LeetchisGod]

Desharnais in over Nieves is yet another ridiculous AV move. This team isn't winning squat with this guy behind the bench. Can't wait until he loses another playoff series for us.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Watching the game tonight with one of the new guys I hired last month. He's a huge Ducks fan and we even have a bet. The loser needs to pose with the jersey of the other team

 

[kovazub94]

So why don't we make our fourth line good again, move Fast to the fourth line and play Desharnais on the third line? Our 4th line now includes Desharnais who as you mentioned is not a fourth liner nor is he a center and it includes two 13th forwards. Thats not an NHL line.

It's getting pretty annoying as you repeatedly proposing strengthening the 4th line at the expense of top9. You saw how difficult it was for Buch and Kreider to generate anything with DD. Do you think it would be a good idea to put him either with Hayes for the line that gets 2-way assignments against other team's top lines, or with Zuke to have the Guiness record shortest line? DD is not suited for any role other to be a 13th forward in case of an injury. Your blind hate for Vesey prevents you from seeing an obvious.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Neither Bo nor DD have been great lately. Carey has played well.

 

[Mac n Gs]

So why don't we make our fourth line good again, move Fast to the fourth line and play Desharnais on the third line? Our 4th line now includes Desharnais who as you mentioned is not a fourth liner nor is he a center and it includes two 13th forwards. Thats not an NHL line.

Our 4th line has been good since Nieves and Carey started playing together. They’re both adept forecheckers and read each other very well. Your quixotic ideas about the makeup of this lineup ignore chemistry and intra-line player effects. Jesper Fast is pacing for 40 points and plays extremely well with Kevin Hayes, who’s handling extremely difficult minutes very well. Grabner has been a goal scoring machine. Those three together give you a great 3rd line that can take defensive responsibilities and score against depth lines. That’s been AV’s MO for four years now. Keeping KZB together is self-explanatory. Miller and Zucc are the next combo that fit together well, and now you add Nash who’s been generating a ton of scoring chances this year.

That top-6 gives you two offensive lines that can attack teams in different styles, whether it be off the rush or through a cycle. I’ve explained the utility of the Hayes line above. Grabner and Fast aren’t fourth liners, no matter how many times you repeat it. It’s simply not true, and you need to accept that reality. I’ve explained the fourth line too. Defensively responsible and can chip in offense off the cycle, which again is another AV MO. This is the optimal lineup. Maybe the defensive pairings can be tweaked, but we need a better RHD to make that work.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It's getting pretty annoying as you repeatedly proposing strengthening the 4th line at the expense of top9. You saw how difficult it was for Buch and Kreider to generate anything with DD. Do you think it would be a good idea to put him either with Hayes for the line that gets 2-way assignments against other team's top lines, or with Zuke to have the Guiness record shortest line? DD is not suited for any role other to be a 13th forward in case of an injury. Your blind hate for Vesey prevents you from seeing an obvious.

You are asking to have no fourth line. Even if it was Vesey-Nieves-Carey and Desharnais in the press box, thats not a good 4th line, that line has one 4th liner. The two wingers on that line are not NHL 4th liners. Carey might be better suited for it than Vesey due to skill-sets, but he's not an NHL regular. Vesey's just not a 4th liner, not his skill-set. He doesn't defend well enough, and he's weak on the forecheck for all his physical play. 3rd line or bust right now. I'd have Vesey in my lineup, and on the 3rd line right now, but that must be blind hate for Vesey. This is a bad argument, given the amount of Ranger fans who have a similar opinion of him to me.

Doesn't everyone also always say that Fast is good when he's not playing in the top 9? Grabner might have a lot of goals, but he does nothing at a top 9 level except for skate fast and score goals due to volume of breakaways. For all Grabner's goals, he holds his line mates back. Grabner-Nieves-Fast is one of the NHL's best 4th lines. Vesey-Hayes-Desharnais is an average or slightly below average 3rd line, but I think if we have two good top 6 lines and one of the best 4th lines in the league, having an average or slightly below average 3rd line is okay. And I once again ask why Desharnais is not suited as a 3rd line winger? Is the most important thing for top 9 forwards not the points they put up? He's close to a 2nd liner than a 4th liner with his offense, thats not a 13th forward. I thought it was a weird signing as well, but I can only regard what he does on the ice. He's definitely exposed as a center in the top 9, but why does this guy get so much unwarranted criticism when he does his job? Its not his fault he's being asked to play a role he can't.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Our 4th line has been good since Nieves and Carey started playing together. They’re both adept forecheckers and read each other very well. Your quixotic ideas about the makeup of this lineup ignore chemistry and intra-line player effects. Jesper Fast is pacing for 40 points and plays extremely well with Kevin Hayes, who’s handling extremely difficult minutes very well. Grabner has been a goal scoring machine. Those three together give you a great 3rd line that can take defensive responsibilities and score against depth lines. That’s been AV’s MO for four years now. Keeping KZB together is self-explanatory. Miller and Zucc are the next combo that fit together well, and now you add Nash who’s been generating a ton of scoring chances this year.

That top-6 gives you two offensive lines that can attack teams in different styles, whether it be off the rush or through a cycle. I’ve explained the utility of the Hayes line above. Grabner and Fast aren’t fourth liners, no matter how many times you repeat it. It’s simply not true, and you need to accept that reality. I’ve explained the fourth line too. Defensively responsible and can chip in offense off the cycle, which again is another AV MO. This is the optimal lineup. Maybe the defensive pairings can be tweaked, but we need a better RHD to make that work.

This is my lineup

KZB
Nash-Miller-Zucc
Vesey-Hayes-Desharnais
Grabner-Nieves-Fast

Hayes is on pace for 35 points this season playing with guys like Fast and Grabner. Is it possible that they hold him back? I think they do. They can't make any offensive plays for teammates. I'm not sure there are great answers, but I think making the 4th line really good, and giving Hayes slightly more offensively talented line mates is the answer.

 

[Maliks PlusMinus]

Hayes is on pace for 35 points this season playing with guys like Fast and Grabner. Is it possible that they hold him back? I think they do. They can't make any offensive plays for teammates. I'm not sure there are great answers, but I think making the 4th line really good, and giving Hayes slightly more offensively talented line mates is the answer.

Fast and Grabner are much better than Desharnais and Vesey at hockey. Just because they're far better defensively and guys like DD mightn't be "4th liners" doesn't mean that we should make the 3rd line worse. Hayes is being used as our most defensive centre, that's why he's playing with 2 good defensive players and it's going pretty well.

 

[egelband]

And Boo has been way more effective. Don't think that is a good move at all.

DD has been very good. I agree he hasn’t been ‘top line’ good And shouldn’t be taking shootouts. But he has been noticeable and pushes the play forward. Boo, not so much.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Fast and Grabner are much better than Desharnais and Vesey at hockey. Just because they're far better defensively and guys like DD mightn't be "4th liners" doesn't mean that we should make the 3rd line worse. Hayes is being used as our most defensive centre, that's why he's playing with 2 good defensive players and it's going pretty well.

But you are ignoring the discussion. This is not an argument of who's better at hockey, its about who fits better where in the lineup. Hayes is really struggling to score this season. Fast and Grabner could play their games on any line. I think we need to put Hayes in better positions to succeed.