Proposal: Rangers-Avalanche

[One Winged Angel]

Boom.

 

[Avaholic29]

Damn, you guys really like Mika lol.
Love the passion. He's definitely a stud and id probably advise avs fans talking his numbers down, to stop. He's about to have a big year lol. At this point I'd take guys over zibanejad on paper sure, but like the Rangers fans are saying he was quite versatile last season in terms of physicality and special teams. He's more than just points

 

[Gospel of Prospal]

I'm confused how Jost got involved in this, am I missing something?

I was referring to Bowers being more value given up compared to a straight swap of Kreider for COL 2020 1st. Adding Bowers to that trade would be "giving up even more value", especially if we'd be taking a player with low value and high AAV like Staal back.

Whatever the case I'd prefer to keep our best prospects, whilst avoiding trading valuable assets for aging players (i.e. Staal). Kreider at 28 years old is probably as high as I'd go age-wise in a trade.

I was just responding to the guy who didn't want to include Jost (and Lias) in any Kreider deal.

I added Staal because you can clearly absorb his cap hit (as well as extend Kreider), but we also get less back because you take on Staal's contract.

 

[Kupo]

He's more than just points

You're goddamn right!

 

[Gospel of Prospal]

You're goddamn right!

DJ Zbad Coming Atcha

 

[One Winged Angel]

Damn, you guys really like Mika lol.
Love the passion. He's definitely a stud and id probably advise avs fans talking his numbers down, to stop. He's about to have a big year lol. At this point I'd take guys over zibanejad on paper sure, but like the Rangers fans are saying he was quite versatile last season in terms of physicality and special teams. He's more than just points

It’s not even that we really like him. Just don’t make ill-informed posts like he made. He started out saying there were 35-40 centers better. Then he couldn’t name 30. Then some of those 20 something he mentioned were debatable at best.

For example, I would never say something like there are 70-80 centers better than Kadri. It’s ignorant. I know it’s false and there’s no point of saying it. It’s ok to recognize players that might not be obvious talents on other teams.

Everyone knows Nathan MacKinnon is great. But do they know that JT Compher is actually a very good middle-6 option with some room to grow? No, but that doesn’t mean trash the dude because you think your team has a better option than him.

Like I could understand if he was just trying to troll us, but he wasn’t. He legitimately thought there were 35-40 centers better than Zibanejad and then tried to push that notion under the rug by saying oh, here’s 30 and some other ones I’d argue that aren’t close in reality.

I’m sure you could agree that it’s just stupid.

 

[Spilot23]

He said over 35 initially. He provided 29 names. About 6 of the names were doozies like you claimed.

35.. 29.. 23..

Same same, but different I guess..

I actually read this like that guy :

 

[Avaholic29]

You're goddamn right!

Lmao

 

[Freudian]

Hey Avs fans. Did we win this one?

 

[Richard88]

I was just responding to the guy who didn't want to take out Jost (and Lias) in any Kreider deal.

I added Staal because you can clearly absorb his cap hit (as well as extend Kreider), but we also get less back because you take on Staal's contract.

You're right, technically we can absorb Staal's cap hit, but it would be a silly thing to do as it would mean that we'd have to get rid of someone else on the roster, all for the sake of making room for a bad contract.

• Staal ------ $5.7m / 2 years
• Kreider --- $4.625 / 1 year

Assuming that Kreider resigns at around $6.5m, that's $12.2m in contracts coming our way.

After Rantanen and Kamenev get resigned we should have about $6m in capspace this season. Barrie's retention ($2.75m) and Orpik's buyout ($1.5m) total $4.25m and come off the books in 2020. Combined that gives us around $10.2m to play with in 2020, so again, it is technically possible to absorb Staal and Kreider.

However, a big chunk of that $10.2m needs to go towards resigning Girard, Jost, Zadorov, Burakovsky, and Francouz next summer, meaning that Staal would be taking someone's place.

Needless to say, Avs have no interest in attaching Staal in any deal...

... And that's before you even talk about what he would bring on the ice. Avs are already loaded with LHD (Girard/Zadorov/Cole/Byram/Connauton/Rosén/etc), so adding Staal would be a bit of a redundant move.

I think there's definitely interest in Kreider alone though, but it probably depends on him resigning at a reasonable term. Signing 29 year old Kreider to a 6 year deal for example (taking him to age 35) has the potential of becoming a crippling contract precisely when Mackinnon needs to be resigned. Gotta be careful with that.

 

[Avaholic29]

It’s not even that we really like him. Just don’t make ill-informed posts like he made. He started out saying there were 35-40 centers better. Then he couldn’t name 30. Then some of those 20 something he mentioned were debatable at best.

For example, I would never say something like there are 70-80 centers better than Kadri. It’s ignorant. I know it’s false and there’s no point of saying it. It’s ok to recognize players that might not be obvious talents on other teams.

Everyone knows Nathan MacKinnon is great. But do they know that JT Compher is actually a very good middle-6 option with some room to grow? No, but that doesn’t mean trash the dude because you think your team has a better option than him.

Like I could understand if he was just trying to troll us, but he wasn’t. He legitimately thought there were 35-40 centers better than Zibanejad and then tried to push that notion under the rug by saying oh, here’s 30 and some other ones I’d argue that aren’t close in reality.

I’m sure you could agree that it’s just stupid.

Absolutely agree. It's pointless. And something tells me that he didn't watch zibanejad last year at all lol. I got the pleasure of owning Mika in my fantasy pool and I couldn't beleive his production across all stats we tracked. The addition of panarin and kakko will only mean bigger things for him. The fact you guys paid a price of Brassard for him makes things even better lol

 

[One Winged Angel]

Absolutely agree. It's pointless. And something tells me that he didn't watch zibanejad last year at all lol. I got the pleasure of owning Mika in my fantasy pool and I couldn't beleive his production across all stats we tracked. The addition of panarin and kakko will only mean bigger things for him. The fact you guys paid a price of Brassard for him makes things even better lol

Exactly and you definitely noticed the point per game pace that he was at for a majority of the season then. That’s why I mentioned that when stating that this could be a new level he’s reached.

Obviously it’s only one year, but as you said and I stated in a previous post in this thread, you add Panarin, who is the best talent he’s ever played with and 80+ isn’t out of the question.

Remember Mark Scheifele was picked one spot after Zibanejad in the same draft and he broke out a few years ago. Sometimes it takes a little longer for some. There’s no exact science.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Lmao

Mika’s off-ice productions.

He should call his company that “Off-Ice Productions by DJ Filthy Beats Mika”

 

[TGWL]

Staal isn't going anywhere. So take Smith instead. Smith, Kreider for 2 2nds + Prospect. (2020/2021 picks) If you make the 2nd round of playoffs the 2020 second becomes a 1st, the 2021 is dropped. Not even sure that's legal...

Bury Smith. Buy him out. Put him on the 4th line. Do what you want with him.

Ideally I'd want more for Kreider than potentially 2 seconds and a prospect if a team got him for an entire season, but we need to clear some cap as well.

 

[junyab]

I don't think either team has given up on their respective player.

 

[cgf]

Right, because Zibanejad on a team starved for offense scored 30 goals and 70 points while playing great two way hockey.

Kadri hasn’t hit 70 points. Kadri wouldn’t be the Rangers 1C if he was here and you’re fooling yourself if you think he’d take the 2C in Colorado over Zibanejad.

Just stop.

Why do I not even need to see whom you are quoting to be able to guess who it is?

 

[Richard88]

Staal isn't going anywhere. So take Smith instead. Smith, Kreider for 2 2nds + Prospect. (2020/2021 picks) If you make the 2nd round of playoffs the 2020 second becomes a 1st, the 2021 is dropped. Not even sure that's legal...

Bury Smith. Buy him out. Put him on the 4th line. Do what you want with him.

Ideally I'd want more for Kreider than potentially 2 seconds and a prospect if a team got him for an entire season, but we need to clear some cap as well.

So if we make the 2nd round (which is actually quite likely to happen), we'd be giving up a 1st round pick; a prospect; AND taking Smith's contract? That's extremely bad for Colorado.

 

[BackhandToedrag]

1. Trocheck played 55 games and had 34 points. Do some better research the next time.

2. Larkin is just over 3 years younger. He turns 23 in 11 days. Not a “huge” gap by any means. Larkin has also been in the league for a while.

3. Who cares if Draisaitl is playing wing? If he’s playing the WING then he’s a WINGER and isn’t included in this conversation. You made the parameters and then want to move the goalposts?

4. Again the discussion is about right now, so you keep talking about what happened 5 years ago as if it matters when it doesn’t. Duchene scoring 70 points in 2014 has exactly what bearing on this very moment?

5. Monahan has played with Gaudreau from his 2nd season until now. If you flip flop the two of them, the results would favor Zibanejad. Stop acting like Gaudreau has nothing to do with Monahan’s production.

6. Couturier didn’t crack 70 points until he started playing with Giroux and Zibanejad despite not having any type of comparable talent with him, put up almost identical numbers to Couturier this year.

I read trochecks stats wrong my bad I'd still take him over zib and as for the rest of these excuses for why those players better seasons don't matter is laughable also my list had 36 players I feel are better than zib no goal posts were moved by me you can disagree with the guys I listed but the number I stated add up I said somewhere around 35 and I have him at 37 and I'm pretty sure we're getting no where so I'm not gonna argue with you anymore good luck to your rangers you guys have done a fantastic rebuild and Im very high on your team moving forward I just don't think zib is as good as you do

 

[TGWL]

So if we make the 2nd round (which is actually quite likely to happen), we'd be giving up a 1st round pick; a prospect; AND taking Smith's contract? That's extremely bad for Colorado.

Yes, but is guarantee that if you bomb, you don't give up a great 1st. So the risk isn't as bad if you end up with injuries or take a step back. The prospect is also less than a prospect tier we'd ask without Smith.

 

[One Winged Angel]

I read trochecks stats wrong my bad I'd still take him over zib and as for the rest of these excuses for why those players better seasons don't matter is laughable also my list had 36 players I feel are better than zib no goal posts were moved by me you can disagree with the guys I listed but the number I stated add up I said somewhere around 35 and I have him at 37 and I'm pretty sure we're getting no where so I'm not gonna argue with you anymore good luck to your rangers you guys have done a fantastic rebuild and Im very high on your team moving forward I just don't think zib is as good as you do

You don’t have to think he’s as good, but you’re fooling yourself if you think there are 30+ centers that are better than him at this very moment, which was what the argument was.

 

[BackhandToedrag]

You don’t have to think he’s as good, but you’re fooling yourself if you think there are 30+ centers that are better than him at this very moment, which was what the argument was.

I haven't changed my stance I'm not gonna why don't you go tweet at a writer or scout and see what they say... Will Schouch and Tom Hunter both said they'd put him no higher than 25 and that it becomes very debatable between the next 10 or so guys I'll take their opinions over yours

 

[Patagonia]

Yes, but is guarantee that if you bomb, you don't give up a great 1st. So the risk isn't as bad if you end up with injuries or take a step back. The prospect is also less than a prospect tier we'd ask without Smith.

AVs are extremely happy with what they've done this offseason.

• Kadri. Fills their need for a 2C which is comparable to Zibby.
• Barrie. Finally dumped for more assets and cap space.
• Bura + Donskoi. Wingers to fill 2nd line. Kreider is not needed.
• Youngsters. Jost, Compher, Kamenev + Kaut, along with prospects have an opportunity.
• Draft. Kept their picks and deepening the depth with Byram/Newhook.

We can continue debating about Zibby, but it doesn't change the fact AVs filled their area of need. They've become more balanced, faster with deeper prospects with plenty of cap space. I'm sure a few AVs fans and their insecure man-crushes disagree.

There is no trade opportunity and if there is any chance, we'll revisit at Free Agency.

 

[Richard88]

Yes, but is guarantee that if you bomb, you don't give up a great 1st. So the risk isn't as bad if you end up with injuries or take a step back. The prospect is also less than a prospect tier we'd ask without Smith.

Even if it's "just" two 2nds the acquisition of Smith would mean that someone like Zadorov would have to leave to make room, so it's not worth it at all. Colorado doesn't even have a 2020 2nd round pick currently either.

Regarding the prospect tiers, there's a fan vote on the Colorado boards which has thus far ranked the prospects as follows:

Position	Player	Draft	2019 Rank	2018 Rank	Change
RD	Cale Makar	2017 #4	1 (96.7%)	1	0
LD	Bowen Byram	2019 #4	2 (98.1%)	-	-
C	Alex Newhook	2019 #16	3 (60.0%)	-	-
RD	Conor Timmins	2017 #32	4 (57.8%)	3	-1
RW	Martin Kaut	2018 #16	5 (92.6%)	2	-3
C	Shane Bowers	2017 #28 (TR)	6 (76.6%)	4	-2
C	Vladislav Kamenev	2014 #42 (TR)	7 (52.1%)	6	-1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The vote for #8 prospect is currently ongoing:

• D - Drew Helleson - 2019 #47 ----------------- 32 vote(s) 31.7%
• D - Nicolas Meloche - 2015 #40 - (5) --------- 47 vote(s) 46.5%
• RW - Nikolai Kovalenko - 2018 #171 - (13) --- 14 vote(s) 13.9%
• LW - Sampo Ranta - 2018 #78 - (11) ---------- 0 vote(s) 0.0%
• LW - AJ Greer - 2015 #39 - (8) ---------------- 8 vote(s) 7.9%
• C - Igor Shyvrev - 2017 #125 - (7) ------------- 0 vote(s) 0.0%
• LW - Cam Morrison - 2016 #40 - (14) -------- 0 vote(s) 0.0%

What I think is clear from the results above that the prospect tiers (including 2020-2021 picks) are more or less like this:

A+ prospects

• Makar (2017 #4) - RD
• Byram (2019 #4) - LD

A- prospects

• Newhook (2019 #16) - C
• Timmins (2017 #32) - RD
• Jost (2016 #10) - C
• Kaut (2018 #16) - RW
• Bowers (2017 #28) - C ***
• COL 2020 1st
• COL 2021 1st

*** Note: It's arguable whether Bowers is an A- prospect or a B+ due to the apparent tier-gap between Kaut and Bowers in the vote above, but I put him as an A- as well because he's a former 1st round pick and because the staff seem really high on him. For example, in this article on Bowers which was published last week there's a quote by Alan Hepple (Avs' Director of Amateur Scouting) from when Bowers was acquired in the Duchene trade, where he confirms that they considered Bowers to be a 1st rounder:

“We liked him his draft year. That was the one thing. We knew we weren’t going to get him where we were picking. He was going to be gone before our second pick. But we liked him.”​

B prospects

• Kamenev (2014 #42) - C
• Meloche (2015 #40) - RD
• Hellesson (2019 #47) - RD
• Kovalenko (2018 #171) - RW
• Greer (2015 #39) - LW
• COL 2021 2nd

C prospects

• Ranta, Shyvrev, Morisson, Henry, Werner, Annunen, Weiss, Saigeon, etc
• TOR 2020 3rd
• COL 2021 3rd

Now, going back to what you were saying about "the prospect is also less than a prospect tier we'd ask without Smith."...

Kreider at the deadline will certainly not bring back TWO A-prospects, which would be equivalent to two 1st round picks. That is, if the 2020 1st is included for Kreider it's unlikely that another A-prospect like Bowers is included in the trade. And since Colorado is entering "win-now" mode the preference would definitely be to use the 2020 1st rather than a prospect like Bowers who is close to making an impact.

So realistically, you'd probably be looking at the 2020 COL 1st plus one of the B prospects. Maybe throw in your choice of a C-prospect too if that gets it done.

Feel free to choose other B or C prospects to suit Rangers' positional needs, but just as an example, that could be:

Kreider <----> 2020 COL 1st + Meloche + Ranta
​

To put that in perspective, as a rental that's effectively a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for a pending UFA given where Meloche (#40) and Ranta (#78) were picked in their respective draft years.

If you'd like to add a conditional pick based on whether or not Kreider resigns with Colorado, replace Ranta/C prospect with a conditional 2021 COL 3rd (which becomes COL 2021 2nd if Kreider resigns). So that's:

As a rental:

Kreider <----> 2020 COL 1st + Meloche + 2021 3rd*
​

If resigned:

Kreider <----> 2020 COL 1st + Meloche + 2021 2nd*​

Again, that's effectively 1st + 2nd + 3rd as a rental, and if resigned that's effectively 1st and 2 2nds, either of which would surely get accepted by Rangers, don't you think?

 

[JC704]

I don't think either team has given up on their respective player.

Nobody is giving up on anybody, it's just an apples/oranges trade idea. Rangers get a talented C -- who is a few years younger, but not quite put it all together yet -- who can fight for that 2C spot. Avalanche get a 20-goal winger, who is still improving, can fit nicely next to MacKinnon or Kadri as their title window starts to open this season, and honestly won't break the bank on this next contract.

 

[yeaher]

Someone think Zibawhatever is going to get 100 points this year...ummm ok