Rangers Are Statistically a "Bad" Team

[Machinehead]

The Rangers are bad? You're f***ing kidding me!

 

[Machinehead]

That's my point. Capitals are 25-30 in most of those statistical categories, worse than the Rangers in some and better in other areas.

But, they're a top team in the Eastern Conference. It just emphasizes how important elite talent is. Not depth talent.

It emphasizes how the Capitals will be out in the second round again.

The difference is, I won't be surprised.

 

[Machinehead]

I'm gonna wait for @Machinehead to chime in on this one. Always like hearing his input on advanced stats and analytics

When AV first came in, the goal was to take the Torts team, which was good defensively, and open it up a bit.

At first it worked, and we had fantastic 13-14 and 14-15 seasons.

Then AV doubled down on the whole "do nothing but offense" thing more and more each year. At this point, we literally cycle once a game, and it's usually Kreider's fault, and he usually gets benched for it. If it's not an odd-man rush, we dump the puck in and retreat. You know how some teams play the 1-4? Without hyperbole, the Rangers play a 0-5. They don't cycle or forecheck at all. Try to get an odd-man rush and if you don't, give up and run back to your own zone.

The defensive system has it's own warts, but it's really the offensive system that's the issue. It forces us to defend 55 minutes out of 60 because we never have the puck. We either score immediately or willingly get rid of it.

 

[Machinehead]

no 1C, goalie best/most important player. meh/bad dcorps outide of weber/mcd

The Habs are an elite possession team that can't finish for shit.

The Rangers are a garbage possession team that shoots 10% every year.

The two teams are polar opposites.

 

[Sam Spade]

It emphasizes how the Capitals will be out in the second round again.

The difference is, I won't be surprised.

The Capitals could lead the league in every positive statistical category that exists and they wouldn't win anything.

 

[Machinehead]

I don't know what fans expect him to do.

Play f***ing hockey.

We haven't cycled in three weeks. Don't tell me that's because of the roster because I watched the Sabres do it like 9 times at the Winter Classic, and I watched the Coyotes do it like 25 times while they were crucifying us the other night.

 

[Machinehead]

The Capitals could lead the league in every positive statistical category that exists and they wouldn't win anything.

If you believe in curses, sure.

I believe they just haven't been to defend effectively for Ovechkin's entire tenure.

 

[LI Fly Guy]

We're pretty much the only team in the division without our own top 5, let alone top 10 pick on the roster.

This is what you get when you actually try to be competitive every year.

The Flyers have tried to be competitive every year. Last year they were slotted to pick 13th and got lucky. Hockey gods rewarded them for getting screwed in 07.

I agree with your take though. Except the part where you suggested the Flyers have tanked like all the other teams. Was never the case.

 

[Fataldogg]

It emphasizes how the Capitals will be out in the second round again.

The difference is, I won't be surprised.

Unless they face the Lightning/Penguins, they can beat any team in the East.

 

[Machinehead]

Unless they face the Lightning/Penguins, they can beat any team in the East.

Those are the only teams in the East worth a damn, so not saying much.

 

[aufheben]

They don't get murdered though, the point of the game is still to score more goals and the Rangers play a counter-attacking style that may lead to lower possession but higher-quality opportunities.

Ok, "murdered defensively".

 

[Fataldogg]

Play ****ing hockey.

We haven't cycled in three weeks. Don't tell me that's because of the roster because I watched the Sabres do it like 9 times at the Winter Classic, and I watched the Coyotes do it like 25 times while they were crucifying us the other night.

I completely agree. The cycle game is non-existent. Everything is built off the rush. There is no possession of the puck.

He needs to be fired. I'm just not sure that is the magic "fix" button for the team. Especially if Lindy Ruff takes the reigns. The coaching staff is inept.

I also question their roster. I don't know how a coach would handle the defensive core they have. It's absolutely brutal. However, he can coach zone hockey, move on from man-to-man because our players aren't effective in that system, and have the forwards play some defense.

 

[Machinehead]

I completely agree. The cycle game is non-existent. Everything is built off the rush. There is no possession of the puck.

He needs to be fired. I'm just not sure that is the magic "fix" button for the team. Especially if Lindy Ruff takes the reigns. The coaching staff is inept.

I also question their roster. I don't know how a coach would handle the defensive core they have. It's absolutely brutal. However, he can coach zone hockey, move on from man-to-man because our players aren't effective in that system, and have the forwards play some defense.

I'm not saying it's a magic fix either, but I think Auf said it best - there's a difference between holes in the roster and getting murdered every night.

And honestly, in the garbage East, you're never far from contention.

Besides, this system is such a mess that we'd need to fire the coach to properly evaluate the roster and what it needs.

 

[4ORRBRUIN]

We're pretty much the only team in the division without our own top 5, let alone top 10 pick on the roster.

This is what you get when you actually try to be competitive every year.

or trade your picks and draft poorly.

 

[These Are The Days]

When AV first came in, the goal was to take the Torts team, which was good defensively, and open it up a bit.

At first it worked, and we had fantastic 13-14 and 14-15 seasons.

Then AV doubled down on the whole "do nothing but offense" thing more and more each year. At this point, we literally cycle once a game, and it's usually Kreider's fault, and he usually gets benched for it. If it's not an odd-man rush, we dump the puck in and retreat. You know how some teams play the 1-4? Without hyperbole, the Rangers play a 0-5. They don't cycle or forecheck at all. Try to get an odd-man rush and if you don't, give up and run back to your own zone.

The defensive system has it's own warts, but it's really the offensive system that's the issue. It forces us to defend 55 minutes out of 60 because we never have the puck. We either score immediately or willingly get rid of it.

I've noticed that before. With the exception of Kreider any tenacious Rangers. I mean depending on the night Butch and Zibanejad will try to be the cog that spins the wheel but the rest of the team is so discombobulated that it sometimes just becomes a turnover. There's just so many 'one and done' sequences. Oftentimes I've noticed it is hard enough just to get the puck down the ice. It's like a tiger that WANTS to attack but doesn't. Like you said It comes to a stop and dumps it in. And I've noticed the NYR line change on their dump ins too much for my liking. Sure you wanna take advantage but it just kills the whole sequence. The NYR don't have a fantastic team but AV's system is a f***ing disaster right now and he needs to go back to the drawing board.

I am truly sorry for how much they're struggling. Not a diss at the Senators but they know what I'm talking about. It's the same damn problem there.

Everyone harps on defensive zone systems and how long it takes to get out but truth be told, it's an overrated part of the game. If you live in the offensive zone then it doesn't even matter what your defensive zone scheme is. The only defense for strong possession, smart and timely passing and high scoring chances is a fire drill in your own zone. Defense is predicated upon positioning, anticipation, reaction time, board battles and a player being open for a pass and deciding how you want to go forward. All it takes is a guy like Nikita Kucherov to say "LOL f*** your system" and the whole thing is gonna get blown up. It's exhausting. By that point your only reasonable response is to dump and line change and God forbid the backchecking defenseman can thread a needle through the neutral zone.... you're gonna go right back to defending your net.

The Rangers would benefit tremendously from a change in philosophy because if they're not gonna rebuild they need to go back to the drawing board with how they're gonna play hockey

 

[ZiGOODejad]

or trade your picks and draft poorly.

actually we draft pretty decent picks. we've hit on a couple but what team doesn't

 

[ZiGOODejad]

I've noticed that before. With the exception of Kreider any tenacious Rangers. I mean depending on the night Butch and Zibanejad will try to be the cog that spins the wheel but the rest of the team is so discombobulated that it sometimes just becomes a turnover. There's just so many 'one and done' sequences. Oftentimes I've noticed it is hard enough just to get the puck down the ice. It's like a tiger that WANTS to attack but doesn't. Like you said It comes to a stop and dumps it in. And I've noticed the NYR line change on their dump ins too much for my liking. Sure you wanna take advantage but it just kills the whole sequence. The NYR don't have a fantastic team but AV's system is a ****ing disaster right now and he needs to go back to the drawing board.

I am truly sorry for how much they're struggling. Not a diss at the Senators but they know what I'm talking about. It's the same damn problem there.

Everyone harps on defensive zone systems and how long it takes to get out but truth be told, it's an overrated part of the game. If you live in the offensive zone then it doesn't even matter what your defensive zone scheme is. The only defense for strong possession, smart and timely passing and high scoring chances is a fire drill in your own zone. Defense is predicated upon positioning, anticipation, reaction time, board battles and a player being open for a pass and deciding how you want to go forward. All it takes is a guy like Nikita Kucherov to say "LOL **** your system" and the whole thing is gonna get blown up. It's exhausting. By that point your only reasonable response is to dump and line change and God forbid the backchecking defenseman can thread a needle through the neutral zone.... you're gonna go right back to defending your net.

The Rangers would benefit tremendously from a change in philosophy because if they're not gonna rebuild they need to go back to the drawing board with how they're gonna play hockey

a lot of our fans agree with most of this. the coaching staff is horrendous. MAYBE just maybe if we changed our D zone coverage our defense wouldn't be a shit show right now

 

[Machinehead]

I've noticed that before. With the exception of Kreider any tenacious Rangers. I mean depending on the night Butch and Zibanejad will try to be the cog that spins the wheel but the rest of the team is so discombobulated that it sometimes just becomes a turnover. There's just so many 'one and done' sequences. Oftentimes I've noticed it is hard enough just to get the puck down the ice. It's like a tiger that WANTS to attack but doesn't. Like you said It comes to a stop and dumps it in. And I've noticed the NYR line change on their dump ins too much for my liking. Sure you wanna take advantage but it just kills the whole sequence. The NYR don't have a fantastic team but AV's system is a ****ing disaster right now and he needs to go back to the drawing board.

I am truly sorry for how much they're struggling. Not a diss at the Senators but they know what I'm talking about. It's the same damn problem there.

Everyone harps on defensive zone systems and how long it takes to get out but truth be told, it's an overrated part of the game. If you live in the offensive zone then it doesn't even matter what your defensive zone scheme is. The only defense for strong possession, smart and timely passing and high scoring chances is a fire drill in your own zone. Defense is predicated upon positioning, anticipation, reaction time, board battles and a player being open for a pass and deciding how you want to go forward. All it takes is a guy like Nikita Kucherov to say "LOL **** your system" and the whole thing is gonna get blown up. It's exhausting. By that point your only reasonable response is to dump and line change and God forbid the backchecking defenseman can thread a needle through the neutral zone.... you're gonna go right back to defending your net.

The Rangers would benefit tremendously from a change in philosophy because if they're not gonna rebuild they need to go back to the drawing board with how they're gonna play hockey

Agreed with all of this. Best defense is a good offense.

Buchnevich and Zibanejad do try, that's true, but that's why AV hates them.

He's weird; like, he wants to play Harlem Globetrotters score-10-goals hockey, but the forecheck is the most conservative I've ever seen. The system doesn't know what it wants to be and that's why it sucks so much.

 

[These Are The Days]

Agreed with all of this. Best defense is a good offense.

Buchnevich and Zibanejad do try, that's true, but that's why AV hates them.

He's weird; like, he wants to play Harlem Globetrotters score-10-goals hockey, but the forecheck is the most conservative I've ever seen. The system doesn't know what it wants to be and that's why it sucks so much.

To be honest I don't see a team that's built for strong possession anymore. So much of today's game is predicated on balance and the Rangers don't have it. They've got good skill guys but few rough and tumble. Smart thing to do is re-tool. Trade a guy like Nash for a Kreider-like player, give Lindy Ruff a chance and see where it takes you. I'd hate for the NYR to turn into a Metro version of the Canadiens but it might be their best move to lean on Lundqvist to win games and open the game up like Dallas did. See if you can get the Globe Trotters with what you got. Let a few guys like Krieder raise hell and let the likes of Butch finish the play.

The best result is a balanced offense that can control the flow of play and takes care of the D. Worst case is too much run and gun and Hank has to stand on his head.

 

[JT Kreider]

or trade your picks and draft poorly.

Rangers have drafted pretty damn good outside the obvious McIlrath botch.

The Rangers traded their 1sts for Nash, St. Louis (the original trade was only one 1st, we had to give up another one as a condition of making the SCF) and Yandle. If you look at the 1sts we traded anyway, there is nobody in the range of the picks we traded that we are kicking ourselves for missing out on anyway.

That's life as a contender. That's life when you never have the opportunity to draft in the top five where most of the franchise changing talent is only available. So you have to do things differently.

I guess instead of it sucking to suck, it sucks to actually try and be good and go for the Cup.

The Rangers should actually be commended for being this good for this long without a Crosby, Malkin, Kane or Toews. Let alone two.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Rangers have drafted pretty damn good outside the obvious McIlrath botch.

The Rangers traded their 1sts for Nash, St. Louis (the original trade was only one 1st, we had to give up another one as a condition of making the SCF) and Yandle. If you look at the 1sts we traded anyway, there is nobody in the range of the picks we traded that we are kicking ourselves for missing out on anyway.

That's life as a contender. That's life when you never have the opportunity to draft in the top five where most of the franchise changing talent is only available. So you have to do things differently.

I guess instead of it sucking to suck, it sucks to actually try and be good and go for the Cup.

The Rangers should actually be commended for being this good for this long without a Crosby, Malkin, Kane or Toews. Let alone two.

Actually, it looks like what happens to a team that doesn't have a long-term plan in place. Always an above-average group, but never a true contender.

 

[JT Kreider]

Actually, it looks like what happens to a team that doesn't have a long-term plan in place. Always an above-average group, but never a true contender.

That's ridiculous. The summer we traded for Nash we were coming a season where we finished 1st in the East, had more ROW than the Presidents Trophy winners and made it to the ECF. The year we traded two 1sts we went to the finals. We won the Presidents Trophy the year we traded our last 1st for Yandle and were one win away from going back to the finals.

How isn't that a contending team?????

Don't forget during this time we are in the prime of the best player in franchise history. You sure shit are not going to waste it.

 

[Hivemind]

They have more talent than they get credit for. They were a high-scoring team the last few seasons. They were solid in the 2014 playoffs and were strong in 2015. But now it seems like they struggle a few months into every season.

I think they can make the playoffs, but there are certainly better teams. It's one thing to have poor/middling advanced stats when you're scoring. Their offense is only mediocre this season.

Their teams in 2014 and 15 also had a lot more offensive talent. Rick Nash was younger/better. Martin St. Louis was a deadline add in 2014 and played the full season for them in 2015. They had Stepan and Brassard (and Brad Richards in 2014) down the middle. Without a few legit playmakers/finishers on their roster (outside of Zucc), of course their offense would suffer compared to previously.

If you believe in curses, sure.

I believe they just haven't been to defend effectively for Ovechkin's entire tenure.

I know you have a much more negative opinion of Alzner/Carlson than many around here (and you have justification for your reasoning), but this particular analysis is rather shallow. The Capitals have iced several strong defensive teams, by both "traditional" and "advanced" metrics.

Plus, come on. You watched those Rangers/Caps series. You know it wasn't the Caps defense that let them down. It was their complete lack of secondary (and sometimes primary) scoring. Heck, the Caps held the Rags to 1 or fewer goals by the end of regulation in 5 of the 7 games in the 2015 series, yet they still lost.

 

[Machinehead]

I know you have a much more negative opinion of Alzner/Carlson than many around here (and you have justification for your reasoning), but this particular analysis is rather shallow. The Capitals have iced several strong defensive teams, by both "traditional" and "advanced" metrics.

Plus, come on. You watched those Rangers/Caps series. You know it wasn't the Caps defense that let them down. It was their complete lack of secondary (and sometimes primary) scoring. Heck, the Caps held the Rags to 1 or fewer goals by the end of regulation in 5 of the 7 games in the 2015 series, yet they still lost.

Last year, yes. The Caps were extremely strong last year and they destroyed the Penguins, who got away with one of the luckiest series wins ever.

But by and large, it's been a weakness. The 2015 series was all Holtby and Lundqvist. Those teams were trading 35 shots every night.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Its been all season.

Bad hockey team.