Randy Carlyle/Playing Years

Jim MacDonald

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Oct 7, 2017
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Hey guys and gals,

Hope 2019 has gotten off to a good start so far for everyone personally and professionally.

Randy Carlyle played when I was younger and before I developed a love for hockey. Know he was on the Winnipeg Jets, and seen a lot of pictures of him playing without a helmet etc. Wanted to learn a bit about his game (strengths/weaknesses) and overall opinions of him from Jets fans and others who watched him play. Look forward to the knowledge and opinions as always!-Jim
 
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streitz

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Until he got older he was easily the best D man on the jets at both ends of the ice.

He shouldn't have won the Norris over Potvin/Robinson(that was before my time though) but all through the 80's he was a very good offensive and defensive player. Very intelligent, tough but not a fighter.


There's not much to say, there were no real flaws in his game. He just lost that elite offensive edge he had with the penguins when he got older.
 

tony d

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Jun 23, 2007
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He had a good run, won the Norris 1 yr. Not the best defenseman all time but still a very good hand to have on your team.
 

blood gin

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Definitely not fair but every time I think of Carlyle I see the puck bouncing over his stick as he went to play a loose puck and right to Tonnelli who tied game 5 at 3-3
 

vadim sharifijanov

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i remember old, helmetless winnipeg carlyle in his last days as a slow, stay-at-home, defensive rock.

but is that right? i was very young and maybe just seeing a big slow helmetless guy made me assume he was being a boss in his own end because the other big old slow balding guy was rod langway.
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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Hey guys and gals,

Hope 2019 has gotten off to a good start so far for everyone personally and professionally.

Randy Carlyle played when I was younger and before I developed a love for hockey. Know he was on the Winnipeg Jets, and seen a lot of pictures of him playing without a helmet etc. Wanted to learn a bit about his game (strengths/weaknesses) and overall opinions of him from Jets fans and others who watched him play. Look forward to the knowledge and opinions as always!-Jim

As it was pointed out, Potvin probably deserved the Norris in 1981, but what the heck, he won it and had a great year doing it also. Here is the funny thing, he had 9 points in 5 playoff games as well and yet was still cut from the Canada Cup squad that year. I can't remember if there was an injury or not to him but that seems off to cut him.

Unfortunately he often gets mentioned with Doug Wilson as the only defenseman in NHL history to win the Norris and not be in the HHOF (PK Subban is the only other one right now who might join them perhaps).
 
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Howie Hodge

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Good junior player, and Leafs pick.

Desperate for stability on the back end, Toronto shipped him to Pittsburgh for Dave Burrows.

Lack of patience can certainly cost you, then, and now....
 
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Jim MacDonald

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Oct 7, 2017
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Guys this will blow you away, I just hopped on Hockey Reference and Carlyle has the lowest plus/minus of any Norris recipient since the trophy's inception. And it was interesting to see (and learn from you guys) he was a Penguin (and a Leaf) as a youngster. Man those Penguins must've really had some bad teams pre-Mario....Carlyle's plus minus is painful those Penguin years! Is the game Gin talking about a crucial game versus the Oilers in one of those 80's series? Overall it looks like Carlyle was stuck on subpar Penguins AND Jets teams for the majority of his career (based on the plus minus numbers at least). That had to be tough..ugh.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Unfortunately he often gets mentioned with Doug Wilson as the only defenseman in NHL history to win the Norris and not be in the HHOF (PK Subban is the only other one right now who might join them perhaps).

not sure why subban would be behind hedman or brent burns in this regard
 
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Iron Mike Sharpe

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As it was pointed out, Potvin probably deserved the Norris in 1981, but what the heck, he won it and had a great year doing it also. Here is the funny thing, he had 9 points in 5 playoff games as well and yet was still cut from the Canada Cup squad that year. I can't remember if there was an injury or not to him but that seems off to cut him.

Does it really? In my opinion, all of the guys on that 81 squad who beat him out were unequivocally better d-men, and generally had styles more suitable to matching the Russians (ie, rock solid defenders + speedy skaters). Young Carlyle won the Norris because he was QB of their power play unit, which was pretty good for a crappy team. That early 80s Pens team had a bunch of one-dimensional offensive guys who could score easily with the man advantage, but they died on even strength because none of them could backcheck, Carlyle would get caught up on rushes, & the team depth past the offensive guns were a bunch of goons taking stupid penalties all the time.

i remember old, helmetless winnipeg carlyle in his last days as a slow, stay-at-home, defensive rock. but is that right? i was very young and maybe just seeing a big slow helmetless guy made me assume he was being a boss in his own end because the other big old slow balding guy was rod langway.

He was never the fastest guy to begin with, but age and injuries slowed him down in his last few seasons. With the rise of Fredrik Olausson and Dave Ellet, he was also moved from the first unit PP after several years, and had to adjust his game to a certain extent because he didn't have the wheels to rush anymore.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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I had been up for a while before making that post...hard to believe I could make such a sleepy answer...I read that totally backwards, which makes no sense given the thread I'm in.

My apologies, good call.

raises an interesting question though, is subban still appreciably farther from the HHOF than weber?

norris: 1, 3, 3 / AST: 1, 1, 2

vs

norris: 2, 2, 3, 4, 4 / AST: 1, 1, 2, 2

is still a decent gap, especially considering subban's norris was in the lockout year, but subban has now been the best defenseman (at worst a very strong 1a) on a cup finalist and has flat out lapped weber's playoff career. weber does have his 2010 olympics performance though.

subban's career stats: 615 GP, 93 G, 302 A, 395 P

weber at subban's age: 685 GP, 146 G, 246 A, 392 P

if he hasn't all but caught weber yet, i think he will soon.
 
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ICM1970

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Good junior player, and Leafs pick.

Desperate for stability on the back end, Toronto shipped him to Pittsburgh for Dave Burrows.

Lack of patience can certainly cost you, then, and now....

I recall reading about that in William Houston's "Inside Maple Leaf Gardens: The Rise and Fall of the Toronto Maple Leafs", in which Houston discussed some of the poor trades that Jim Gregory made as the Leafs' general manager at the time (during the years of Red Kelly and then Roger Neilson being the coach). Apparently, Carlyle enjoyed the life of a young bachelor that little bit too much and Gregory after a while got fed up with having to deal with that and the few mishaps involving automobiles. So he traded Carlyle to Pittsburgh and got George Ferguson and Dave Burrows in exchange, but both men, especially Burrows, were somewhat disappointments with the Leafs.
 
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Howie Hodge

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he traded Carlyle to Pittsburgh and got George Ferguson and Dave Burrows in exchange, but both men, especially Burrows, were somewhat disappointments with the Leafs.

Actually, he traded Carlyle AND Ferguson to Pittsburgh for Burrows. Ferguson preceded to put up four straight 20 goal seasons in Pittsburgh.

To rub salt int the wound, Burrows lasted two full season in Toronto before being dealt back to Pittsburgh for two players who's names I don't even remember....
 
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Big Phil

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not sure why subban would be behind hedman or brent burns in this regard

Okay, fair enough. Probably the reason being those two are better defenseman than Subban currently and I can see a bit more greater seasons by the other two.

Does it really? In my opinion, all of the guys on that 81 squad who beat him out were unequivocally better d-men, and generally had styles more suitable to matching the Russians (ie, rock solid defenders + speedy skaters). Young Carlyle won the Norris because he was QB of their power play unit, which was pretty good for a crappy team. That early 80s Pens team had a bunch of one-dimensional offensive guys who could score easily with the man advantage, but they died on even strength because none of them could backcheck, Carlyle would get caught up on rushes, & the team depth past the offensive guns were a bunch of goons taking stupid penalties all the time.

Fair enough, but when you lose 8-1 there are always questions that come with it. Carlyle isn't usually one of my guys that I pick as cuts from that 1981 that could have changed things. I think that 1981 team had a lot of cuts that could have changed things but upon further review we do remember in 2014 the reigning Norris winner, Subban, barely got any ice time in the Olympics.
 

ICM1970

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Actually, he traded Carlyle AND Ferguson to Pittsburgh for Burrows. Ferguson preceded to put up four straight 20 goal seasons in Pittsburgh.

To rub salt int the wound, Burrows lasted two full season in Toronto before being dealt back to Pittsburgh for two players who's names I don't even remember....

Thanks for clarifying that, my goof for mixing Ferguson's part of the deal around the wrong way. Gregory also did the 1978 Errol Thompson for Dan Maloney deal and Houston commented on that that was too much of a price to pay for tough guy Maloney as he was almost done as a fighter by then due to his damaged hands. And trades were yet another area where kindly H Ballard interfered with as well as following the 1978 deep run into the playoffs, Roger Neilson argued that they should trade Ian Turnbull as even though he did very well in that recent post season, he was just that too inconsistent and this would be a good time to get a good value for a trade. Ballard stepped in and said no way, he would not even trade Turnbull for God (as Turnbull was one of his personal favourites). I don't want to get too much off topic here, but you wonder who Roger might have had in mind as possible compensation at that time and it is interesting who maybe could have been part of a properly done deal and how they might have contributed to the Leafs afterward, particularly in Neilson's disciplined system. By the time the Leafs were done with Turnbull in about 1981, they sent him to Los Angeles for John Gibson and Billy Harris (who were basically both museum pieces like Turnbull by that time, IIRC).

BTW, I looked it up and saw that Burrows was traded back to Pittsburgh in about 1980-81 with Paul Gardner in exchange for Kim Davis and Paul Marshall.
 

reckoning

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Most Leaf trades of the late-70s had Roger Neilson's fingerprints all over them. "Soft" finesse players like Thompson and Hammarstrom were shipped out for gritty grinders like Maloney and Butler. It helped them get past the Islanders that year, but they mortgaged a lot of their future (they gave up two 1st-round picks in the Maloney deal). Carlyle for Burrows was another example. Burrows was considered one of the top defensive defencemen in the game, and at the time most thought he would be an important piece getting the Leafs to the next level. For whatever reason, Burrows never fit in with Toronto.

As far as the 1981 Canada Cup went, apparently Carlyle showed up overweight, out of shape, and didn't have a good camp. That's not going to fly with any team run by Scotty Bowman I don't think keeping him on the team would have changed the outcome.
 

BobbyAwe

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Hard to believe that a defenseman with a -16 wins the Norris.

I always thought of Carlisle as an offensive D-man who sacrificed defense because of his +/- but then the teams he played on sucked and just about everyone was usually in the minus column? I don't remember him as a player apart from his stats though...
 

The Panther

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There seems to be no major award that's as criticized as Carlyle's 1981 Norris.

I must join the consensus and say "I don't get it". With the caveat that the 1980-81 season is before my time, and so basically from looking at the stats (I did see Carlyle play quite a bit with Winnipeg, usually when they were getting destroyed by Edmonton), I do not really see the case for his '81 Norris. Let's see...

For the Defense
- He got 83 points, 2nd on his team, and 1st among all NHL defencemen (though, to be put this era into perspective, Mario Faubert, a D-man whom I'd never heard of until now, scored 52 points that season for Pittsburgh).
- Carlyle was kind of alone on the Pens, with only maybe 55-goal man Rick Kehoe for elite-level company

For the Prosecution
- He was -16. Given that the Pens went 30-37-13 and were a minus 43 team overall, Carlyle's plus/minus is about what you'd expect from a top player given big minutes. But it isn't particularly good, either, and obviously merits no Norris attention in itself. In fairness to Carlyle, he was actually a "plus 10" in overall on-ice goal differential, which is good on a minus 43 team, I guess... but is it good enough, given the competition...?
- The Pens were the 4th-worst defensive team in the NHL. (Why would such a team even produce the Norris winner...?)
- Playing 2 fewer games than Carlyle, Denis Potvin had only 7 fewer points and went +39. In overall differential, he was "plus 82" to Carlyle's "plus 10".
- How about rookie Larry Murphy? He scored as many points as Potvin, and was himself a nice +16 and an overall "plus 46". Not bad for a rookie on a team with poor defence!

It seems that 1980-81 wasn't such a strong season for defencemen. Bourque missed 13 games and that made his numbers look a bit less flashy. Larry Robinson was awesome, but his scoring points were modest compared to Carlyle's (and Potvin's, Murphy's...). The Leafs were into the toilet, which hurt Borje Salming's chances (though this didn't prevent Carlyle's winning it).

Hell, I think Potvin has to win that one! And if not him, then give it to super-rookie Larry Murphy or Ray Bourque.
 
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CHIP72

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Mar 16, 2013
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There seems to be no major award that's as criticized as Carlyle's 1981 Norris.

I must join the consensus and say "I don't get it". With the caveat that the 1980-81 season is before my time, and so basically from looking at the stats (I did see Carlyle play quite a bit with Winnipeg, usually when they were getting destroyed by Edmonton), I do not really see the case for his '81 Norris. Let's see...

For the Defense
- He got 83 points, 2nd on his team, and 1st among all NHL defencemen (though, to be put this era into perspective, Mario Faubert, a D-man whom I'd never heard of until now, scored 52 points that season for Pittsburgh).
- Carlyle was kind of alone on the Pens, with only maybe 55-goal man Rick Kehoe for elite-level company

For the Prosecution
- He was -16. Given that the Pens went 30-37-13 and were a minus 43 team overall, Carlyle's plus/minus is about what you'd expect from a top player given big minutes. But it isn't particularly good, either, and obviously merits no Norris attention in itself. In fairness to Carlyle, he was actually a "plus 10" in overall on-ice goal differential, which is good on a minus 43 team, I guess... but is it good enough, given the competition...?
- The Pens were the 4th-worst defensive team in the NHL. (Why would such a team even produce the Norris winner...?)
- Playing 2 fewer games than Carlyle, Denis Potvin had only 7 fewer points and went +39. In overall differential, he was "plus 82" to Carlyle's "plus 10".
- How about rookie Larry Murphy? He scored as many points as Potvin, and was himself a nice +16 and an overall "plus 46". Not bad for a rookie on a team with poor defence!

It seems that 1980-81 wasn't such a strong season for defencemen. Bourque missed 13 games and that made his numbers look a bit less flashy. Larry Robinson was awesome, but his scoring points were modest compared to Carlyle's (and Potvin's, Murphy's...). The Leafs were into the toilet, which hurt Borje Salming's chances (though this didn't prevent Carlyle's winning it).

Hell, I think Potvin has to win that one! And if not him, then give it to super-rookie Larry Murphy or Ray Bourque.

Larry Murphy played for Los Angeles, not Pittsburgh, in his rookie season (in fact Murphy played for three different franchises before he joined the Penguins), and the Kings tied for the 4th best record in the NHL that season.
 

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