Raising #13

[RedWingsNow*]

I'm actually shocked at how much Wings fans underrate a superstar on their own team.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I'm actually shocked at how much Wings fans underrate a superstar on their own team.

Says the guy that has run down Lidstrom's worth at every chance he gets.

Getting your jersey retired by the Detroit Red Wings is one of the hardest things to do in sports. I like that we do it that way, it makes it that much more special. If Pavel wants it to go up as the first Wing aside from Sawchuk as a non-captain and he is very close, he has to sign an extension.

 

[BinCookin]

Here is a different perspective.

Are we ok with another player eventually wearing 91? 13? 40? after said player is gone?

I think for example Colorado should not have retired Bourque, he was there one season... he was a Bruin NOT an avalanche.

I think retired players should be identified PRIMARILY as a Red Wing.

Federov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom

Yzerman, Howe, Sawchuk...

All famous red wings.

Shannahan i am not sure, he played for many teams, but his prime was with our team.

If we have "unofficially" retired numbers, then just retire them.
I know there is little space up there, but still.

13/40 are two of the most complete players in the game now.
They don't win scoring races due to their use on the PK as well.

Beyond that, i would say to make it to the hockey hall of fame you need to be roughly a PPG player and play over 1000 games in the NHL (Exceptions for >PPG players under 1000 games (Lemiuex, Bure).

Under those definitions, I think Datsyuk and Zetterberg have 5 more years in the league... so they will make it close to 1000 pts each, thus they should both make it.

Even if they were both to retire in the next 2 years... I remember them. I want them up there.

Be stickler's if you want. Datsyuk is voted by other players to be the best in the world... how do you NOT put him up there!?

 

[BinCookin]

Says the guy that has run down Lidstrom's worth at every chance he gets.

Getting your jersey retired by the Detroit Red Wings is one of the hardest things to do in sports. I like that we do it that way, it makes it that much more special. If Pavel wants it to go up as the first Wing aside from Sawchuk as a non-captain and he is very close, he has to sign an extension.

I agree... why go back to russia.

Dear Datsyuk:

"Stay here we enjoy your athletics every night sir."

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Says the guy that has run down Lidstrom's worth at every chance he gets.

I'm not calling Datsyuk the best center ever to play the game.

I'm saying he's an all-time Red Wings great.

If Joe Thornton was a wing all these years and the Wings never won a cup, I think a lot of people would be blinded by his point totals.

It shows how little people people appreciate Datsyuk's defense.

Of course, this is the same board where people used to say "Datsyuk doesn't contribute anything unless he's scoring." So this board has a history of minimizing Datsyuk's all-around game.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

It is easier to make the HHOF than get your jersey retired in Detroit. In my mind Datsyuk is already in the Hall of Fame because of some of the things we have outlined. Plus the HHOF is about more than just the NHL, his player of the year in Russia during the last lockout counts on his resume as does a lot of other data some people overlook. Zetterberg's resume also improves when you consider this in terms of his future with the HHOF but still has work to do there. Oddly enough Zetterberg with that C now on his sweater does have an inside track on an area which seems very important to eventually going in the rafters of the new Amway arena when he hangs them up.

They are different honors and that is important to remember. In all honesty for me Osgood has always had a better case than Shanahan (which is clearly not happening) because he is the franchise leader in wins besting Sawchuk who already is up there. I am curious as we have a couple guys that wear 91 in our system plus it would be an obvious switch for Calle, I think we get an answer there soon as to their intentions as far as Fedorov.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Getting your jersey retired by the Detroit Red Wings is one of the hardest things to do in sports.

I like that we do it that way, it makes it that much more special. If Pavel wants it to go up as the first Wing aside from Sawchuk as a non-captain and he is very close, he has to sign an extension.

That's dumb.

So the team picks Zetterberg, even though Datsyuk is the leader of the team on the ice, and because of that, Datsyuk shouldn't be recognized for the 12-years of greatness?

Some of you people have strange ideas.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I'm not calling Datsyuk the best center ever to play the game.

I'm saying he's an all-time Red Wings great.

If Joe Thornton was a wing all these years and the Wings never won a cup, I think a lot of people would be blinded by his point totals.

It shows how little people people appreciate Datsyuk's defense.

Of course, this is the same board where people used to say "Datsyuk doesn't contribute anything unless he's scoring." So this board has a history of minimizing Datsyuk's all-around game.

I don't minimize his game he was/is a fantastic player. I don't see him much different than Fedorov, he is unlikely to leave us for another NHL team, but I still put Sergei in front of Datsyuk for this honor. I just think the way they do this in Detroit is special and I am not sure without another contract barring a miraculous run that would make the Holland haters jaws drop that he is there yet.

To be clear I would not be disappointed as I am a huge Datsyuk fan like everyone around here. I just don't think he fits just yet into the biggest honor a Wings player can receive, bigger than getting into the HHOF.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Thats a terrible idea. Detroit has the highest standard of putting numbers in the rafters and it really adds to the tradition of the team.

Datsyuk has some selkes but thats about it for hardware. If Red Kelly isnt in the rafters Datsyuk shouldnt be either. Look at the guys in the rafters and tell me which one Datsyuk is comparable too?

The production line were all part of the best dynasty Detroit has seen, Sawchuk is a top 5 goalie all time, Yzerman has a tonne of accolades and is arguably the greatest captain ever etc.

Datsyuk was always a top center when he was in the league, one of the best defensive forwards of his time but never was "the man". If he had a conn smythe I would consider it more

Please, let's cut the elitist crap. I'm not suggesting the Red Wings soften their standards to Colorado's or Vancouver's. However, the late 90's and early 00's Red Wings team is only comparable to the 50's Red Wings team in scale. There's no reason that the primary catalysts of our 3/4 Stanley Cups shouldn't be in the rafters, mainly Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Shanahan, and Fedorov. Hell, Red Kelly should be there too. Osgood is a stretch, but still not beyond realm of possibility.

 

[AD1066]

They're willing to talk BS about Ted Lindsay and Sid Abel and players they never saw... and why they belong but Pavel doesn't...

But they don't understand that they are selling out one of the most talented hockey players in the history of the sport.

One of my pet peeves. People often elevate players of the past to demigod status, and then no mortal playing today can compare in their minds.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

One of my pet peeves. People often elevate players of the past to demigod status, and then no mortal playing today can compare in their minds.

Sometimes it's appropriate, ie the Howe's and Gretzky's of sports.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

That's dumb.

So the team picks Zetterberg, even though Datsyuk is the leader of the team on the ice, and because of that, Datsyuk shouldn't be recognized for the 12-years of greatness?

Some of you people have strange ideas.

The idea that Zetterberg isn't the leader on ice is also completely unfounded. The other players on the team seem to think so, Datsyuk included if you listen to them. Especially in the playoffs, Z has a decided advantage there.

I am not against it happening but right now he comes up short for me, especially if tenure is something we are holding against Kelly and Fedorov, while being the best in the league and their positions in several of those years. The same argument you're making for Datsyuk. Again, I am not against it but it would be a departure from how the Wings have used this honor to date. If you take out Kelly and Fedorov he is the closest I would consider for this honor if he does leave in a year and a half and I could see it happening but there would be a precedence on why it didn't too.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Sometimes it's appropriate, ie the Howe's and Gretzky's of sports.

Not so much in the case of Lindsay and Abel and Delvechio

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I don't minimize his game he was/is a fantastic player. I don't see him much different than Fedorov, he is unlikely to leave us for another NHL team, but I still put Sergei in front of Datsyuk for this honor. I just think the way they do this in Detroit is special and I am not sure without another contract barring a miraculous run that would make the Holland haters jaws drop that he is there yet.

To be clear I would not be disappointed as I am a huge Datsyuk fan like everyone around here. I just don't think he fits just yet into the biggest honor a Wings player can receive, bigger than getting into the HHOF.

If Fedorov's jersey never goes up, it will have nothing to do with his ability and accomplishments, and everything to do with his leaving for another NHL team in somewhat controversial fashion.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

The idea that Zetterberg isn't the leader on ice is also completely unfounded. The other players on the team seem to think so, Datsyuk included if you listen to them. Especially in the playoffs, Z has a decided advantage there.

All you gotta do is watch them play. Datsyuk, as fabricoh said, is the straw that stirs the drink.


In the playoffs, if Datsyuk is hurt, our team sucks.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

I view Z and Datsyuk as a tier below Yzerman and Lidstrom. (Fedorov too, but he is never getting his jersey retired)

I need 1000 points and another cup with no Lidstrom and maybe a Conn Smythe.

 

[mindfly]

I'm actually shocked at how much Wings fans underrate a superstar on their own team.

2cups and >1000pts is not enough to get jersey retired in mighty detroit red wings.

 

[Roy S]

He's the star that stirs the drink on the ice b/c he's the better player. But, that doesn't make him a better leader. No fan has any idea what goes on in the locker room, on the bench between shifts, who leads workouts, who is more vocal in the off season in getting guys ready to play, who motivates teammates between periods or before games, etc. Maybe Datsyuk excels at all that stuff better than Z. I have no idea. But, one cannot tell who is a good leader solely by what they do on the ice when there is so much else that goes into leadership in sports, in business, whatever.

 

[icKx]

If Fedorov's jersey never goes up, it will have nothing to do with his ability and accomplishments, and everything to do with his leaving for another NHL team in somewhat controversial fashion.

Right or wrong, if Datsyuk leaves for Russia and the Wings are consequently a joke of a team I think the skepticism surrounding his legacy will be commensurate with Fedorov.

 

[Kyleftlx]

I would be more comfortable with Datsyuk's number going to the rafters if he played a bit longer in Detroit. If he leaves after this current contract, it may not be as easy for me to be OK with him in the rafters.

One thing that everyone with a retired number has in common is that they played for Detroit for a really lengthy time period, and they played until they were about 40 years old. Fedorov played a solid 12 years in Detroit, and he left when he was 33. Had he come back and played a couple years later in his career, odds are he'd be retired in Detroit just like the other guys. Datsyuk may end up being the same way if he leaves early.

 

[Heaton]

I'm not calling Datsyuk the best center ever to play the game.

I'm saying he's an all-time Red Wings great.

If Joe Thornton was a wing all these years and the Wings never won a cup, I think a lot of people would be blinded by his point totals.

It shows how little people people appreciate Datsyuk's defense.

Of course, this is the same board where people used to say "Datsyuk doesn't contribute anything unless he's scoring." So this board has a history of minimizing Datsyuk's all-around game.

Because Datsyuk has been this great since he stepped on the ice in Detroit for the first time. Players evolve, Datsyuk more than most. For many years Datsyuk was a backseat driver, then in '04 he took over in the regular season but lacked any playoff performance. In '07 he had his coming out party in the playoffs. Datsyuk is an all-time great, just because people don't worship him as much as others doesn't mean he's under appreciated.

But you're the biggest flag waver for Datsyuk on this board - so anything less than hall of fame, number in the rafters, better than everyone else is underrating him to you.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Because Datsyuk has been this great since he stepped on the ice in Detroit for the first time. Players evolve, Datsyuk more than most. For many years Datsyuk was a backseat driver, then in '04 he took over in the regular season but lacked any playoff performance. In '07 he had his coming out party in the playoffs. Datsyuk is an all-time great, just because people don't worship him as much as others doesn't mean he's under appreciated.

But you're the biggest flag waver for Datsyuk on this board - so anything less than hall of fame, number in the rafters, better than everyone else is underrating him to you.

Datsyuk had his coming out party in January of 2002.
It took him time to produce in the playoffs, but he was already a very good defensive center in 2006.
But the silly Red Wings fans, who annointed Zetterberg the future captain in 2003 based on some silliness spouted by Lidstrom, and the loony ravings of Ken Daniels... assumed that Zetterberg was the great defensive forward... while Datsyuk was viewed by many really uninformed fans as "one-dimensional"

That's the problem with people who buy into stupid narratives instead of seeing and thinking for themselves.

It's like this in every fanbase. Stupid ideas get repeated and before you know, they are the consensus.

 

[Flowah]

While I think Pav is generally underappreciated in comparison to Z for his defense, I don't think anyone calls him one dimensional. And hasn't for a good 5 years at least.

But you saw Datsyuk's ability back in 2002 as well. Look up videos on Youtube, it was all there. He surely developed, but it was evident even back then. And the other Wings knew it too from the way they talked about him.

 

[JackieTreehorn]

I would like to see Federov, Datsyuk and Zetterberg retried in that order of deserving imo.

1st 2 for sure. I know Z and Datsyuk have comparable numbers, but as already stated Datsyuk is such a unique player and a lot more fun to watch. Without him I dont know if i could spend a half hour on this years team.

After those 3 I think you could close the debate for 20+ years.

 

[BinCookin]

Datsyuk had his coming out party in January of 2002.
It took him time to produce in the playoffs, but he was already a very good defensive center in 2006.
But the silly Red Wings fans, who annointed Zetterberg the future captain in 2003 based on some silliness spouted by Lidstrom, and the loony ravings of Ken Daniels... assumed that Zetterberg was the great defensive forward... while Datsyuk was viewed by many really uninformed fans as "one-dimensional"

That's the problem with people who buy into stupid narratives instead of seeing and thinking for themselves.

It's like this in every fanbase. Stupid ideas get repeated and before you know, they are the consensus.

I think Datsyuk is not the Captain simply because his language skills (although improved) are still below par. While Z has pretty fluent english.

I will bet Dats talking to refs during the game would not be helpful.