OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Tanking underway

[DJ Spinoza]

Fairly intriguing – I was curious if we might take a flier on somebody like Basabe or Demeritte, both of whom were DFA'd recently, and I suppose we still could, since that's a 40-man roster decision and minor league invites are a different game.

With OF, my current assumption is obviously Reynolds in one spot, and almost certainly Polanco in RF. I think Alford has the inside track for a starting job, but there's probably not a strong guarantee there. Oliva could force the issue a bit with a strong spring training, though it seems to me that the new front office isn't so keen on him. Then there's any number of guys who could make it out of camp, such as Stokes, now Goodwin, etc.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Scouting is a bit of a mess considered the lack of leagues that have been playing and such. I think some public prognosticators are being more conservative with the types of players who are most affected by the lack of reps and competition.

I think so too, but it's curious with Kiley's list since Cruz didn't get reps last year, but got some over the winter with so-so results. Yet he has him relatively high, but is more conservative on Priester, who seemingly has enough hype for somewhat of a consensus to form that he's gonna be a or the major breakout prospect this summer once he gets in games.

I'm pretty curious to see Longenhagen's list, but seems like we won't get it for a little while still.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Hey guys, I'm back from a break... did I miss anything?

 

[Mr. T]

Hey guys, I'm back from a break... did I miss anything?

They recently unearthed a quart of Lenny Dykstra's chaw spit from some Three Rivers Stadium rubble.

 

[ChaosAgent]

My feelings about the Goodwin signing are pretty much "life as a Pirate fan in February 2021."

• Better than Polanco by probably 1ish win
• Not meaningfully moving the needle in any direction
• Not really blocking anyone
• We're still the worst team in the league so who cares if we win another game
• Won't have a lot of "flippability," unlike a pitcher so not beneficial

In conclusion, shrug.

I guess one thing about Goodwin is that it closes the door on any notion that they'd start both Alford and Oliva. So they are firmly competing for CF with Alford having the edge given that Oliva's stock isn't high with GM Cherington (reading the tea leaves).

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I think the one thing I like about the moves in general is that they seem to target specific tools and skills, which optimistically means that if you hit on one of them, it will be a decent hit. I also like the power and power/speed emphasis all around. Obviously, I think Alford is probably the guy to root for, since he's controllable through 2025.

Marwin Gonzalez signed with the Red Sox, and the Blue Jays were apparently interested. Given the connections, I wonder if a Frazier trade could be an option now. It's a little too extreme to call this a "dream" option, but an expanded deal that involved taking all of Roark's salary to maximize the prospect return would be a nice coup at the end of the offseason. Roark is making 12M, but it's just one year – that's fine to eat and would show a commitment to the plan. If we could pull a prospect like Manoah as the headliner, it would be a great way to maxmimize the value and get a veteran for the rotation.

I doubt the Jays are going to jump at sending a top prospect to get rid of Roark's salary, but if the deal expanded to include Frazier, maybe RichRod or even a starter... they have a deep system, and Manoah currently has a 45+ tag, so he could be more expendable. Obviously, there's plenty of other possible names in their system.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

My feelings about the Goodwin signing are pretty much "life as a Pirate fan in February 2021."

• Better than Polanco by probably 1ish win
• Not meaningfully moving the needle in any direction
• Not really blocking anyone
• We're still the worst team in the league so who cares if we win another game
• Won't have a lot of "flippability," unlike a pitcher so not beneficial

In conclusion, shrug.

I guess one thing about Goodwin is that it closes the door on any notion that they'd start both Alford and Oliva. So they are firmly competing for CF with Alford having the edge given that Oliva's stock isn't high with GM Cherington (reading the tea leaves).

There was never any chance they were handing both Oliva and Alford a starting spot with zero competition especially with Reynolds struggling last season as well.

If they cant wrestle control of spot from gimpy polanco and Goodwin they shouldnt be playing.

 

[ChaosAgent]

There was never any chance they were handing both Oliva and Alford a starting spot with zero competition especially with Reynolds struggling last season as well.

If they cant wrestle control of spot from gimpy polanco and Goodwin they shouldnt be playing.

I agree with this.

It was just whether they'd get a free pass on the basis of giving them a chance to sink/swim. Similar thought to Newman if/when Frazier is traded.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I agree too, I think it creates some general competition, and I'd also say that the injury histories of both Alford and Polanco are probably also factors. I think things will work themselves out in spring training, and there's also enough depth that the situation shouldn't really spiral.

I'm curious what we'll do with CF, especially in terms of giving Reynolds a shot there. I'm still moderately high on Reynolds, but I think he's probably most valuable if he can play some CF, though I kinda doubt that would be much of a longterm solution. Seems like anyone could end up there outside of Stokes and Polanco, so right now it looks like there's general competition for starting spots and a bench spot, as well as internal competition for the CF spot.

I highly doubt my "dream" scenario of a bigger Frazier/Roark deal will pan out, but I do hope we can successfully turn the page on Frazier (with a good deal) and add a veteran SP before spring training really gets underway.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I agree too, I think it creates some general competition, and I'd also say that the injury histories of both Alford and Polanco are probably also factors. I think things will work themselves out in spring training, and there's also enough depth that the situation shouldn't really spiral.

I'm curious what we'll do with CF, especially in terms of giving Reynolds a shot there. I'm still moderately high on Reynolds, but I think he's probably most valuable if he can play some CF, though I kinda doubt that would be much of a longterm solution. Seems like anyone could end up there outside of Stokes and Polanco, so right now it looks like there's general competition for starting spots and a bench spot, as well as internal competition for the CF spot.

I highly doubt my "dream" scenario of a bigger Frazier/Roark deal will pan out, but I do hope we can successfully turn the page on Frazier (with a good deal) and add a veteran SP before spring training really gets underway.

I don't think Reynolds is capable of playing CF long-term.

I've always pegged him as an above-average defensive corner OF. Perhaps cognitive dissonance on my part.

The dream is that Swaggerty breaks out and makes this a moot point.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Yeah, I have thought/do think the same, but LF is kind of like another CF in PNC, and his defense has seemingly continued to get better, so I suppose what I'm raising is not closing the door on it. I'm a big believer in the hit tool and overall offensive IQ, though I think I'd feel more solid about him as a quasi-cornerstone player if the defense really cements itself. With the flexibility that will be in the mix among most of the OF, I wouldn't mind seeing how he can handle himself at multiple positions out there, though obviously the priority should be on getting right at the plate, and if that means stapling him to LF, so be it.

I think he can be a very solid, 2.5-3.5 everyday type, and if he can occasionally handle some CF along with both corners, while maybe still having LF as his go-to spot, then I think that accentuates that kind of profile. I think there is maybe a little excess emphasis placed on flexibility these days, but being able to handle multiple spots might allow some more of an OF rotation to try and get the most out of the 4th OF spot/matchups, etc. Obviously that's thinking way too far ahead, but for now my thinking is that at least initially, he should be able to get some reps in CF as well.

I am pretty high on Swaggerty – I think him for the minors and Tucker for the majors are kind of my two picks of under the radar types of sorts that will have success in 2021.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Kiley's prospect org rankings are out and we're 4th. It's interesting, and I expect we'll be similar on Longenhagen's list, which is a good sign, although it should also be noted that we're 14th (I think) on the BA list, so there is still some variance even if we (rightly in my mind) jettison Keith Law's list. I am actually curious how Law's Pirates list is going to look, which should be out soon.

Hayes carries a lot of weight, and my sense is that the reason for variance lies in the series of question marks after him on the list, and specifically how optimistic you are about certain of them. If you are still high on Cruz, and sanguine about the long list of guys who can maintain or gain top-100 status, then with the addition of a #1 pick and a #37 pick, plus presumably a depth trade or two, there's good reason to think the system is really going to cement its status as a top-5 one, or gain it. But if Cruz doesn't work out, Priester's training camp gains don't perfectly translate to games, and Gonzales doesn't stand out in pro ball, then maybe there's more reason to stay pessimistic.

I'm in the optimistic camp, for the most part, but I would really like to see a little more action heading into spring training in order to firm up "what to look for" in terms of playing the kids. To put it bluntly, I'm not really sure that Frazier will do anything to make selling him off at the deadline more lucrative than right now, but like we've been saying, if that is the route we have to take, the limited upside of Newman and Tucker (currently anyways), make it kind of a meh situation. Still, as I keep saying, I'd be more content going into the season if that role was opened up, and we added a few depth prospects, as well as some veterans to the pitching staff.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Kiley's prospect org rankings are out and we're 4th. It's interesting, and I expect we'll be similar on Longenhagen's list, which is a good sign, although it should also be noted that we're 14th (I think) on the BA list, so there is still some variance even if we (rightly in my mind) jettison Keith Law's list. I am actually curious how Law's Pirates list is going to look, which should be out soon.

Hayes carries a lot of weight, and my sense is that the reason for variance lies in the series of question marks after him on the list, and specifically how optimistic you are about certain of them. If you are still high on Cruz, and sanguine about the long list of guys who can maintain or gain top-100 status, then with the addition of a #1 pick and a #37 pick, plus presumably a depth trade or two, there's good reason to think the system is really going to cement its status as a top-5 one, or gain it. But if Cruz doesn't work out, Priester's training camp gains don't perfectly translate to games, and Gonzales doesn't stand out in pro ball, then maybe there's more reason to stay pessimistic.

I'm in the optimistic camp, for the most part, but I would really like to see a little more action heading into spring training in order to firm up "what to look for" in terms of playing the kids. To put it bluntly, I'm not really sure that Frazier will do anything to make selling him off at the deadline more lucrative than right now, but like we've been saying, if that is the route we have to take, the limited upside of Newman and Tucker (currently anyways), make it kind of a meh situation. Still, as I keep saying, I'd be more content going into the season if that role was opened up, and we added a few depth prospects, as well as some veterans to the pitching staff.

I'm just excited to start hearing about these guys in actual pro games. I'm very optimistic that the system in general breaks out in a big way and we start next season with something like 4 consensus top-50 guys and 2-3 more top-100 guys. For argument's sake, I'll say the 4 top-50s will be Rocker, Preister, Gonzales and Peguero.

I'm just counting on Cherington's calling card being scouting and player development. I have to remind myself this as his academic background (elite liberal arts school) makes it seem more like he's an analytics GM but that isn't the case.

As for Tucker and Newman. I still think if Tucker hits his 75-80th percentile with the bat outcome he's a 2.5-3 WAR player and perhaps more. Whereas Newman's absolute upside is...Adam Frazier. Especially assuming that he will not stick at short and they intend to move him to 2B once moving Frazier.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Yeah, I agree, and I think Cruz is probably still going to be in the mix as a top prospect next year, because I'd be very surprised if he plays in Pittsburgh at all, even if he's destroying the minor leagues. It will be interesting to see what they do with him – probably he starts in AA, but if he's good enough in ST, maybe you take the plunge and put him in AAA with the assumption that he may struggle initially but ultimately acclimate himself. As I type that though, I think best case is probably starting in AA and having a good 6-8 weeks before getting the AAA challenge. Though my point is more that he'll be in that mix as well, unless he really has a bad year.

The other thing I could have noted from Kiley's list is that he describes Yajure as a #3 or #4. I think Longenhagen will have him as a 45+, but I guess we'll see. It's always easy to get too comfortable with the idea of a guy as having mid-rotation upside, thinking it's just kind of glue, etc., but that's probably the second biggest thing to watch this year, behind Keller. Can Keller emerge as a staff ace type, with Yajure doing very well in AAA action and looking like he can be a solid supplementary rotation piece? If so, that's a good leap forward regardless of what's happening with all the other questions about pitching in the high minors/MLB.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I don't expect anything out of Cruz moving forward. I don't think people are giving enough attention to the fact he was in a fatal accident that killed 3 people. Obviously it seems like he had no fault in the crash, but that can really f*** with a person mentally. He was always more of a boom (very big boom) or bust prospect, even with what we saw 2 years ago. If he hits, we're going to be in GREAT shape, especially if Hayes is what we think he is. But I'd be very cautious and temper expectations on Cruz. We should find out a lot about him this year. Fingers crossed.

Tucker needs to get starters reps this year. Make or break time for him.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yeah, I agree, and I think Cruz is probably still going to be in the mix as a top prospect next year, because I'd be very surprised if he plays in Pittsburgh at all, even if he's destroying the minor leagues. It will be interesting to see what they do with him – probably he starts in AA, but if he's good enough in ST, maybe you take the plunge and put him in AAA with the assumption that he may struggle initially but ultimately acclimate himself. As I type that though, I think best case is probably starting in AA and having a good 6-8 weeks before getting the AAA challenge. Though my point is more that he'll be in that mix as well, unless he really has a bad year.

The other thing I could have noted from Kiley's list is that he describes Yajure as a #3 or #4. I think Longenhagen will have him as a 45+, but I guess we'll see. It's always easy to get too comfortable with the idea of a guy as having mid-rotation upside, thinking it's just kind of glue, etc., but that's probably the second biggest thing to watch this year, behind Keller. Can Keller emerge as a staff ace type, with Yajure doing very well in AAA action and looking like he can be a solid supplementary rotation piece? If so, that's a good leap forward regardless of what's happening with all the other questions about pitching in the high minors/MLB.

What does he have for Bolton? Also Cruz the Padres lefty. Hoping 2/3 of those hit and we've at least got mid-rotation replacements moving forward.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I don't think he mentions either in the overall system analysis (ie MLB rankings). I think he did team breakdowns recently, but I'm not sure because I don't subscribe. I agree though, and I'd maybe toss Brubaker into that mix as well. I think with their weapons, Brubaker and Bolton could both end up as very good bullpen guys if the rotation doesn't work out. Brubaker is maybe one of the guys I am most intrigued to see over the long season.

BTW, looks like the Jays got Panik on a minor league deal. I think with the way the market has pressed down wages, Frazier has become less appealing via trade. Can't rule it out entirely, but none of the teams who could use him truly need him yet, so between the salary plus spending assets to get him, maybe there's not much possible. The best trade analogue would have been the Andrus deal that got Texas Heim, but obviously Frazier isn't playing SS for them. Maybe if they would have been interested in Newman and Frazier, but it's straining to see the fit.

From a "players I don't want to watch or root for" standpoint, I'd rather move on from Moran and Frazier both, with the latter more pressing due to opening opportunity for Newman/Tucker. But it also isn't the worst thing in the world to have hopefully half decent competence from them in the lineup, to help further protect Hayes. If even just one of them is good enough, along with Reynolds rebounding, then Hayes won't have to worry about being utterly pitched around every time. I think we probably have to hope that Frazier's utility services are more in demand at the deadline, and ideally that Moran is swinging enough of a power bat that a team might look at him as a bench/platoon guy too. Jason Mackey has seemingly stayed consistent in thinking Frazier will be traded, and he's always well-sourced, but my gut says there won't be another trade before the season.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't think he mentions either in the overall system analysis (ie MLB rankings). I think he did team breakdowns recently, but I'm not sure because I don't subscribe. I agree though, and I'd maybe toss Brubaker into that mix as well. I think with their weapons, Brubaker and Bolton could both end up as very good bullpen guys if the rotation doesn't work out. Brubaker is maybe one of the guys I am most intrigued to see over the long season.

BTW, looks like the Jays got Panik on a minor league deal. I think with the way the market has pressed down wages, Frazier has become less appealing via trade. Can't rule it out entirely, but none of the teams who could use him truly need him yet, so between the salary plus spending assets to get him, maybe there's not much possible. The best trade analogue would have been the Andrus deal that got Texas Heim, but obviously Frazier isn't playing SS for them. Maybe if they would have been interested in Newman and Frazier, but it's straining to see the fit.

From a "players I don't want to watch or root for" standpoint, I'd rather move on from Moran and Frazier both, with the latter more pressing due to opening opportunity for Newman/Tucker. But it also isn't the worst thing in the world to have hopefully half decent competence from them in the lineup, to help further protect Hayes. If even just one of them is good enough, along with Reynolds rebounding, then Hayes won't have to worry about being utterly pitched around every time. I think we probably have to hope that Frazier's utility services are more in demand at the deadline, and ideally that Moran is swinging enough of a power bat that a team might look at him as a bench/platoon guy too. Jason Mackey has seemingly stayed consistent in thinking Frazier will be traded, and he's always well-sourced, but my gut says there won't be another trade before the season.

Glad that Brubaker is still intriguing others as well.

I'd move on from my avatar Frazier but I worry that the market for him is nil at this point.

I'd like to keep Moran around because he's blocking no one at 1B - I highly doubt Mason Martin forces the issue early - and it'd be nice to see him build on what he did last year. He also could be a bench bat for a contender as you said. Something I always liked about Moran is that he wasn't overmatched coming off the bench. Often even good hitters get pwned off the bench against relievers throwing 97+.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Glad that Brubaker is still intriguing others as well.

I'd move on from my avatar Frazier but I worry that the market for him is nil at this point.

I'd like to keep Moran around because he's blocking no one at 1B - I highly doubt Mason Martin forces the issue early - and it'd be nice to see him build on what he did last year. He also could be a bench bat for a contender as you said. Something I always liked about Moran is that he wasn't overmatched coming off the bench. Often even good hitters get pwned off the bench against relievers throwing 97+.

Yeah, there's really no baseball reason to move Moran given how things stand. Even if Martin really breaks out this year, it might even be a stretch to say that Moran could be dealt at the deadline. I guess Martin could start in AA and surprise somewhat, but the comparison between Moran and Frazier isn't too accurate other than my own biases about not liking them as much.

Even though I really want to see Tucker get regular reps above a lot else with this team, at this point I'd rather just hope Frazier can perform to his ability than trade him for whatever. Maybe BC has one more suprise in his back pocket – and I'd be more than happy to take on an interesting 45+ type in a deal – but I'd rather have one more shot at lineup protection for Hayes than just whatever in order to open up opportunities. At the end of the day, if Newman and Tucker aren't forcing the issue, it's not the end of the world.

My gut says Tucker may really be given a huge opportunity, or – what could de facto amount to the same thing, assuming Frazier is the everyday 2B – it will be made clear that there's a competition for the starting SS job in spring training. If you get a good performance out of all parties, then it shouldn't be too hard to find a decent matchup for a Frazier trade, or some kind of rotation system which also uses a corner OF spot from time to time, etc. Not trading Frazier seems like it will leave Difo out of a job, but who knows. This stuff will probably work itself out in ST. If somebody has a really strong spring, they'll get at-bats.

 

[TNT87]

 

[ImporterExporter]

He's going to be very, very good.

Barring some major change, if he's not he pick this summer, I'd be quite upset. Guy has everything you want in a franchise #1.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Hopefully he has a stronger elbow than Taillon

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I'm firmly on the Rocker train as well and think that's about all that can really be said until we get some college games as data. As long as everything holds consistently, it seems like overthinking to worry about other options, although I will note that Jaden Hill pitching GIFs look very close to Pedro Martinez, and if Leiter's stuff plays up, who knows. I think I've said this before, but there's a sense in which the pandemic-shortened season is ideal for taking a college pitcher, since they have one less taxing year on their arm.

With all that said, I'm only stating the obvious here, but the pick can't miss. Yes, there's an extremely strong chance we'll be picking in the top 3-5 next year as well, but whoever the pick is should weigh heavily on the new front office in the long run. If they see the ceiling of a franchise pitcher in somebody else, then go for it. Similarly if they are utterly sold on a prep SS or Fabian as a five tool impact OF, so be it, just develop them to hit that ceiling and be a franchise player.

This is still talking out of my ass, but the one pick I'd be truly upset with is the college catcher Del Castillo, just because I think the search for a franchise catcher is a bit of a fool's errand for a 1.1 pick. I most definitely lean towards the college pitchers and am again firmly in favor of Rocker, though one thing that is worth underscoring is just how much variance there is, even at the top of the draft. Rocker is not a generational talent and I think that's why there has been so much random speculation he won't necessarily be the pick.

We don't yet have a strong gauge for what this FO likes to do in the draft, and even if we did, the nature of it is always hard to predict. But this draft is deep and we have the best bonus pool, so we need to hit a home run beyond just the first pick. It's all a bit of endless prognosticating without new game data and looks (which is again one reason I'm Team Rocker), but I think Fabian is a good dark horse for BC's pick – extremely athletic, performed very well in the Cape Cod league, and could really put an exclamation mark on things if he has a great college season. My own "preferred" dark horse is Hill, largely because I want the pick to be a pitcher. I want to see Keller establish himself, and then the scenario to be Rocker and Priester as the next two great pitching prospects on the horizon, with several interesting guys behind them on our list.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Incidentally to our recent conversation, looks like the first item of business for FG prospect week is an update on draft prospects:



To save you the clicks, Longenhagen currently has Rocker, Leiter, and McClain as 50FVs, with Leiter ahead of Rocker on the list. He notes that Leiter threw harder this fall, and thinks that if this translates to games, then the general athleticism and upwards trajectory / projectability make him the best, while the "knock" on Rocker at this point seems to be a combination of lack of projectability and sometimes inconsistent showings.

It's not clear to me how much a fully dominant, consistent performance from Rocker would change matters, as my sense from reading various lists is that some evaluators are always going to show a preference for projectability. In other words, I don't think Rocker is likely to fully separate himself from the other players for a number of evaluators, unless it's by a combination of others looking a bit worse and him being mostly consistent and dominant.

I remain Team Rocker but will obviously be watching the news closely. The possibility of Leiter showing consistently high heat along with the advanced breaking stuff and a changeup that's rumored to be decent is all a quite tempting package. These kinds of comparisons are pretty fraught but I'm sort of struck by an ideal outcome contrast of Buehler and Cole. What I'm not clear on is if evaluators would rank Rocker as a similar type to Cole, since even with Cole, there was still a good bit of projectability. Regardless, this update has probably pushed me back to the standard truism about this draft and "either Rocker or Leiter". None of the position players do anything for me to move the needle – if there was a talent like Torkelson, I'd sign a different tune, but the position talent pool is projectable prep middle infield and all-around college types. Please just get a college pitcher.


PS- Kiley has a breakout player per team on ESPN today, and mentions Escotto, and the possibility that a good US debut will make him a viable top-100 guy. It's funny that the Taillon trade seems better by a significant amount than the Musgrove trade, though perhaps the tradeoff is that if things really hit with Head, he'll be ranked as the best player in any of the deals.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Incidentally to our recent conversation, looks like the first item of business for FG prospect week is an update on draft prospects:



To save you the clicks, Longenhagen currently has Rocker, Leiter, and McClain as 50FVs, with Leiter ahead of Rocker on the list. He notes that Leiter threw harder this fall, and thinks that if this translates to games, then the general athleticism and upwards trajectory / projectability make him the best, while the "knock" on Rocker at this point seems to be a combination of lack of projectability and sometimes inconsistent showings.

It's not clear to me how much a fully dominant, consistent performance from Rocker would change matters, as my sense from reading various lists is that some evaluators are always going to show a preference for projectability. In other words, I don't think Rocker is likely to fully separate himself from the other players for a number of evaluators, unless it's by a combination of others looking a bit worse and him being mostly consistent and dominant.

I remain Team Rocker but will obviously be watching the news closely. The possibility of Leiter showing consistently high heat along with the advanced breaking stuff and a changeup that's rumored to be decent is all a quite tempting package. These kinds of comparisons are pretty fraught but I'm sort of struck by an ideal outcome contrast of Buehler and Cole. What I'm not clear on is if evaluators would rank Rocker as a similar type to Cole, since even with Cole, there was still a good bit of projectability. Regardless, this update has probably pushed me back to the standard truism about this draft and "either Rocker or Leiter". None of the position players do anything for me to move the needle – if there was a talent like Torkelson, I'd sign a different tune, but the position talent pool is projectable prep middle infield and all-around college types. Please just get a college pitcher.


PS- Kiley has a breakout player per team on ESPN today, and mentions Escotto, and the possibility that a good US debut will make him a viable top-100 guy. It's funny that the Taillon trade seems better by a significant amount than the Musgrove trade, though perhaps the tradeoff is that if things really hit with Head, he'll be ranked as the best player in any of the deals.

I hope they take Rocker or Leiter because that is a statement of intention to try to compete in the next 2-3 years, not an interminable time away.

As for the Taillon, Musgrove and Marte trades...we just don't know yet. Peguero is the best prospect of the bunch now, but Head or Escotto or Malone even Rodriguez could be right up there or surpass him. Plus you've got Cruz the Padres lefty and Yajure the Yankees righty. My gut tells me at least one of those guys holds down a rotation spot in the next Pirates contender, but I'm not sure who yet. The best pure hitter of the bunch might be Smith from the Yanks.

Marte, Musgrove and Taillon all had such similar value at the time of their trades and it will be a fun exercise for the like 47 of us who care to compare how the prospects develop. Personally of the 11 players we received in those deals I think 5+ of them will be significant for us in the near future.