OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Tanking underway

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DJ Spinoza

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I did a double take – looks like he's been putting in a bunch of work this offseason. We're not quite talking Christian Bale going from the Machinist to Batman type jacked, but that dude has clearly hit the gym with force since being drafted.
 
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cookthebooks

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happy for charlie morton. i thought his option for 2021 automatically vested tho since he wasnt hurt in 19/20?
 

DJ Spinoza

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Braves losing probably bodes well for trying to auction off Musgrove for a high price in two months.
 

Winger for Hire

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Dec 9, 2013
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I'm rooting for the Rays, but won't be upset with the Dodgers winning. They may be a giant, but they've been probably the smartest giant out there. They haven't thrown their weight around in the market with stupid deals, they've developed internally as well as anyone, they've embraced new ideas, they appreciate role players. I find it hard to root against them like I would the Yankee, Sox, Mets, or Chicago based team.
 

DJ Spinoza

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My preferred outcome was Houston winning over LA because f*** 2020. I guess I'll root for the Rays.
 

Fogel

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Rays because it would be fitting for Meadows, Glasnow and Morton to win while the Pirates get to figure out what to do with another #1.
 

Big McLargehuge

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May 9, 2002
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The small market fan in me wants the Rays to win.

I think I've lived close enough to Dodger Stadium for long enough to begrudgingly want to see them win.

The Rays winning makes the Pirates look worse, which is always fun. The Dodgers winning makes the Pirates nihilism look almost warranted, which is less fun. Either way I'm friends with too many Dodger fans to want to see them lose again. Giant market or not, they haven't won the only thing that matters since I was in diapers and were on the wrong side of the f***ing cheAstros so at least they're not as easy to root against as the other LA team that I had no clue apparently just won their 6th title since 2000.


The Rays doing this with so many Pirates we just f***ing gave them for a total whiff makes my proximity to the Dodgers the only reason I'm not rooting for a Tampa sweep, mind you. Either way the Rays just being there makes us look terrible...and I hate that I celebrate that. Stupid f***ing loyalty, I could just be rooting for the Dodgers right now, but instead I'm almost more tempted to root for an outcome that makes my hometown team look bad because I've been in abusive fan relationship since birth.
 
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Fogel

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I remember Buehler getting drafted as a reach signability pick because 2012 was the first draft with bonus pools, think BA had him top 50. I think the Pirates would have signed him from Vanderbilt if it was the old rules. Not signing Appel hurt also since they lost that plus 5% to go over slot. That draft produced almost no one.
 

Big McLargehuge

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I remember Buehler getting drafted as a reach signability pick because 2012 was the first draft with bonus pools, think BA had him top 50. I think the Pirates would have signed him from Vanderbilt if it was the old rules. Not signing Appel hurt also since they lost that plus 5% to go over slot. That draft produced almost no one.

The Buehler pick was one of those picks teams make with a 1% chance of the draftee even listening to an offer. I'll throw dirt in the eyes of moves that deserve it, but as you said Appel not signing pretty much destroyed our available pool money and Buehler was only going to sign if drafted in the 1st round or given a bonus larger than our draft pool allowed.

The fact that Jacob Stallings, who was explicitly selected to be an organizational catcher with the minimum $10k bonus, wound up being the best player from that draft class to sign kicks up a massive dust storm on its own. Without Appel signing the bonus pool was extremely limited, but Jacob Stallings was our best draft pick in 2012. My mind can't handle a Keith Osik-type being a team's best player from a draft in which a team had a top 10 draft position. The Yankees may get by by having drafts where their best pick is a relief pitcher who disappeared after a couple seasons, but a rebuilding team who needs to build from within?

The saddest thing about this may be that Mark Appel signing would have only made our 2012 draft all the more tragic. I may never get as much satisfaction out of a guy's career flaming out before even sniffing AAA again.
 

ImporterExporter

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The Rays winning makes the Pirates look MUCH worse for 2 simple reasons.

Tampa has a tiny payroll. There is no excuse for Pittsburgh to not be able to replicate a WS caliber roster if a team like Tampa can do it.

Glasnow and Meadows contributing to a WS win this quickly, for another team, based on one of the worst trades in the entire history of the sport, would be icing on the cake. I hope they both dominate but won't expect it. Especially Glasnow, who DJ called "a mid rotation starter" recently which I find absolutely comical. Just opinions of course.

Either way, our franchise needs to be looking at Tampa and going "beyond Bob Nutting, is there any logical reason why we can't put together a 90-100 win team capable of pushing all the way"???
 

DanielPlainview

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Glasnow was always on the Randy Johnson developmental path: erratic until he figures out a consistent delivery. Johnson didn't do that until his mid-to-late 20s. Glasnow is approaching that.

But it's questionable he would have figured it out as quickly as he has if he'd stayed with the Pirates. (He definitely would not have under Searage, but we don't know what the new regime is going to bring)
 

DJ Spinoza

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This is not a comment on any of the above or Searage, etc., but Glasnow isn't really that good. He's a #3 pitcher. No defense of the Archer trade here, but the guy kind of is what he is at this point, from what I see.

The Rays actually should be the favorites in this series, on paper. The only games the Dodgers have the advantage in (again on paper) are the games Glasnow is pitching and the bullpen game.

Meadows is also terrible imo, but the trade was and is a dumpster fire.
 

ImporterExporter

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Glasnow was always on the Randy Johnson developmental path: erratic until he figures out a consistent delivery. Johnson didn't do that until his mid-to-late 20s. Glasnow is approaching that.

But it's questionable he would have figured it out as quickly as he has if he'd stayed with the Pirates. (He definitely would not have under Searage, but we don't know what the new regime is going to bring)

Is that the fault of Glasnow? Trading him because our coaching staff had no clue what the f*** they were doing just irks me more. We gave up on him and the Rays turned him into a legit starting MLB pitcher almost immediately. I mean you had multiple Pirates pitchers hinting the Bucs didn't even use advanced analytics w/ their pitching staff. Shit Billy Beane was using almost 2 decades ago.

It's a pathetic look for our franchise.
 

ImporterExporter

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This is not a comment on any of the above or Searage, etc., but Glasnow isn't really that good. He's a #3 pitcher. No defense of the Archer trade here, but the guy kind of is what he is at this point, from what I see.

The Rays actually should be the favorites in this series, on paper. The only games the Dodgers have the advantage in (again on paper) are the games Glasnow is pitching and the bullpen game.

Meadows is also terrible imo, but the trade was and is a dumpster fire.

Before getting injured he was the best pitcher in baseball last year. He was easily the front runner for the Cy Young.

In Tampa, he is 12-7 with a 3.32 ERA, WHIP just above 1 and a K/BB ratio of 12 to 3 or in layman's terms 4 to 1. I can go on, but those are the meat and potatoes. Calling Glasnow a #3 and not very good is ridiculous.

DJ, I respect you, but this is not a good look bud. I understand you have a right to an opinion like anyone else but for some reason you seem hellbent on not joining the rest of us in our evaluation of Glasnow and the trade itself. Not sure why to be honest.
 

DJ Spinoza

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As I said very clearly in my post, I make no defense of the trade, unless you want to construe half-ironic comments about Coonelly being the one who made it as a defense.

Glasnow had some excellent starts last year in a small sample size and is generally a solid pitcher. When I watch him, I see a guy who has two good pitches and is dependable for 5 or 6 innings. He's not in the same conversation as frontline starters for me until he shows otherwise. He's pitched adequately in the playoffs, especially in a key situation vs the Yankees on short rest. I do not wish him ill, I just find it a bit annoying how everyone fawns all over him constantly. The guy is basically Archer in terms of his arsenal. I'd take him back in a heartbeat but I don't really see much more of a ceiling for him other than what he's shown after the league adjusted to him and based on how he pitches. I'll be happy to eat my words if he comes out next year and earns accolades as an ace, and like I said, I'm basically rooting for the Rays, but the ad nauseam fawning over him gets a bit old.
 
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ImporterExporter

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As I said very clearly in my post, I make no defense of the trade, unless you want to construe half-ironic comments about Coonelly being the one who made it as a defense.

Glasnow had some excellent starts last year in a small sample size and is generally a solid pitcher. When I watch him, I see a guy who has two good pitches and is dependable for 5 or 6 innings. He's not in the same conversation as frontline starters for me until he shows otherwise. He's pitched adequately in the playoffs, especially in a key situation vs the Yankees on short rest. I do not wish him ill, I just find it a bit annoying how everyone fawns all over him constantly. The guy is basically Archer in terms of his arsenal. I'd take him back in a heartbeat but I don't really see much more of a ceiling for him other than what he's shown after the league adjusted to him and based on how he pitches. I'll be happy to eat my words if he comes out next year and earns accolades as an ace, and like I said, I'm basically rooting for the Rays, but the ad nauseam fawning over him gets a bit old.

Not sure I've ever seen people fawn over him to the levels you're suggesting. I don't think anyone has called him some sort of Cy Young pitcher (beyond the way he started 2019, which was exactly that IMO).

I definitely don't think he's an ace. Yet. He isn't consistent enough with his control to be that, but the talent/stuff is there. 2 pitches is all you need when those 2 pitches are as devastating as Glasnow's. His spin rate and movement is absurdly good. The very fact he went from a guy who had no business being the ML's with us, to a quality starting pitcher in less than a calendar year is more or less all I need to know about our system/development and the Rays.

At 27 he's not a finished product either. Let's not forget Cole was a good, not great pitcher with Pittsburgh. He then left and become arguably the best in baseball, in short order. Another black mark on Searage and company.

Right now I'd call Glasnow an easy #2 with ace upside. If he can regain 2019, he's an ace, rather comfortably. The only question is can Tampa get him to repeat his delivery as he was doing in the first 2 months of last seasons. That's the only thing really holding him back from taking the last step. As Kessel said earlier, Randy Johnson took quite a long time to find his stride, being a tall, lean pitcher with essentially 2 pitches at his disposal. And RJ didn't need anything else other than a fastball/slider combo. When your stuff is as filthy as it was/is, the only question mark is can you locate those 2 dominant pitches. And honestly, you don't even need to be Greg Maddux with location. Pitchers that need such control are guys who can't get away with more than a few poor pitch locations, because their stuff isn't THAT great.

Regardless, I am rooting for Tampa hard. Them winning a world series, SHOULD put the heat on us to seriously invest in the shit we weren't investing in during the Hurdle years, namely advanced analytics. There are no more excuses for us when you see the other lowest budget team in MLB taking on one of the wealthiest in the WS. Win or lose Tampa is what I wish/hope Pittsburgh can achieve.
 

JimmyTwoTimes

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Apr 13, 2010
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This is not a comment on any of the above or Searage, etc., but Glasnow isn't really that good. He's a #3 pitcher. No defense of the Archer trade here, but the guy kind of is what he is at this point, from what I see.

The Rays actually should be the favorites in this series, on paper. The only games the Dodgers have the advantage in (again on paper) are the games Glasnow is pitching and the bullpen game.

Meadows is also terrible imo, but the trade was and is a dumpster fire.

Which is why they should at least keep Archer around for his final year here and have him pitch in a piggy back role. He could focus on bringing his fastball up , knowing he only has to pitch 2-3 innings. And yeah it was an injury but Archer has also had a year off so I can see him surprising a lot of people and having a season closer to where he was at a few years before being traded to the Pirates. Guy was worn down by the time we got him pitching so many innings each year.

We could possibly get back a prospect like Baz (which was the worst thing about that trade, including him) at the deadline. Pirates payroll is so low right now they should take that chance imo. We didnt get to add to our prospect pool at this deadline, if we are out of contention by next year's then one last sell would help for 2022. Thats the year I think this team can start competing for the division. Cubs are selling off their players, theyll have a rebuild for a bit. Cards are always good but they are getting older as well, Wainwright and Molina are about done. Molina will be a big loss. Even tho his bat isnt as good as it used to be he still does wonders for their pitching. Carpenter and Goldy...older. Reds are kind of on same path as us but a lot depends on them being able to keep Bauer. He will get a lot in FA. Brewers Im not really worried about.

Our division can finally be weaker by the time the Pirates are ready to compete. It shouldnt take 145 wins like it did those 3 years to win the division. Not to mention them just implementing the play-in games when in previous years we would have made the playoffs as the sole wildcard.

Tho Idk if MLB will go back to the play-in games again and just extend the playoffs to maybe 6 teams. We'll see what happens with that. Regardless I like our chances for the division if the Pirates can have these prospects pan out like we expect(along with Reynolds/Newman getting back to where they were, or at least close to it). To go with our pitching(who had an era under 2 in the last month)

Im sure most Pirates fans look at this season and think they have no chance the next few years either but I still say this year was a fluke..between the amount of games played, injuries, and bad starts by all of our top bats at once(which coincides with the shortened season). We were lucky to get #1 pick imo.

Which btw, also doesnt happen if we kept Glasnow and Meadows. Also no Nick Gonzales. So at this point Im over it.
 
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