OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Offseason at the Crossroads

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Winger for Hire

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This is by far the worst time of year for baseball fans. Doubly worse for me since I'm really looking at the team under a microscope this entire offseason since my entire fandom is riding on the next 4 months. Still about a month away from the Winter Meetings and probably any real moves of consequence.

I keep looking over the FA lists thinking I'll see some guys I missed earlier, but nope. Still the same list. Still the best fit for a quick Pirates fix for the current window remains out there well out of reach, taunting me and my imagination. I hate being "that kind of fan", but something inside me just keeps slowly eating away the optimism I had towards the end of the season.
 

Son Goku

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This is by far the worst time of year for baseball fans. Doubly worse for me since I'm really looking at the team under a microscope this entire offseason since my entire fandom is riding on the next 4 months. Still about a month away from the Winter Meetings and probably any real moves of consequence.

I keep looking over the FA lists thinking I'll see some guys I missed earlier, but nope. Still the same list. Still the best fit for a quick Pirates fix for the current window remains out there well out of reach, taunting me and my imagination. I hate being "that kind of fan", but something inside me just keeps slowly eating away the optimism I had towards the end of the season.
Dude we're pirates fans. Optimism hasn't realistically existed for an extended period of time since the 60's. Honestly it drives me away from baseball all together and I LOVED the sport growing up. I was a left handed pitcher played for years.
 
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JimmyTwoTimes

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This is by far the worst time of year for baseball fans. Doubly worse for me since I'm really looking at the team under a microscope this entire offseason since my entire fandom is riding on the next 4 months. Still about a month away from the Winter Meetings and probably any real moves of consequence.

I keep looking over the FA lists thinking I'll see some guys I missed earlier, but nope. Still the same list. Still the best fit for a quick Pirates fix for the current window remains out there well out of reach, taunting me and my imagination. I hate being "that kind of fan", but something inside me just keeps slowly eating away the optimism I had towards the end of the season.

Hear what you are saying but wait til December...when action usually happens after they all get together.

Still think we will add someone for the OF.
 

Winger for Hire

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Wait for December for what? The list isn't going to change; teams aren't going to put an impact SS on the trade block. I'm not lamenting the lack of moves by the Pirates, yet. I'm just saying that this part is the worst time for a fan. Games are done, QOs are done, trades are very few and far between right now (unless you're a Seattle fan), teams are assessing their winter plans. It's a prime time for over analyzing and such.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Quick read on team prospects at FG: Post-2018 Farm System Rankings | FanGraphs Baseball

I have a newbie PS4 question. I am thinking of grabbing one next week, and will likely try and find the cheapest possible copy of MLB the Show. If I get it, will I be able to at least update the roster to around the deadline, i.e., have Archer included on the team?
 

DJ Spinoza

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This might not be a bad gamble, other than the fact that his contract is way too expensive: White Sox Reportedly Shopping Avisail Garcia

But he could be a solid stopgap, and then good depth as someone who could spot the lefty bats of Dickerson and Polanco eventually. It'd be interesting to see what the White Sox would be willing to do to get a half decent prospect. Maybe 1/2 the contract for a depth starting pitching prospect? There are worse gambles to take, low risk, etc.
 

Winger for Hire

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It's not like they gave up...well, anything, but I'm terrified they're going to view Gonzalez as their starting SS.

That would be the most brutal blow to my fandom in years

Both pitchers look like your typical Pirates' projects. Thomas, from Bermuda, has some interesting K stats and decent walk rates, so I'm interested to dig into him more.
 

Empoleon8771

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That would be the most brutal blow to my fandom in years

Both pitchers look like your typical Pirates' projects. Thomas, from Bermuda, has some interesting K stats and decent walk rates, so I'm interested to dig into him more.



Ouch, yep there's your starting SS for next year. Ugh.

The positive is that he was a 0.6 WAR player last season while only playing in the equivalent of 38 games, so that makes me think he'd be a pretty good SS in terms of WAR over a full season if he can do it? Here's what his scouting report said in in 2016, as he was ranked the 8th best prospect in the Indians system:

Gonzalez was deployed all over the diamond to begin his professional career, seeing time at every position save for pitcher and catcher. He took over at shortstop full time at Class A Advanced Carolina in 2013, after he was passed by Francisco Lindor on the organizational ladder. He reached Triple-A for the first time in 2015 and continued to build on that success in his return to Columbus this season before making his big league debut in July.

Gonzalez has into his own offensively in the past two years, demonstrating a better feel to hit as well as improved bat-to-ball skills. He generates sneaky power through physical strength and bat speed, though his barrel path is more conducive to hitting ground balls and line drives than home runs. Once a free swinger, Gonzalez has cut down on the whiffs in 2016, though he's also drawing few walks.

An above-average runner, Gonzalez is still learning how to utilize his slightly above-average speed on the basepaths. His wheels also stand out at shortstop, where he shows impressive range and athletic actions as well as a rocket arm. Gonzalez's overall game needs more consistency, but he has the necessary tools to become a quality big league middle infielder.

I actually don't think it's that bad of a decision to try and gamble on someone like this to be the SS. You just have to address the lack of power somewhere else.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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Have to see how things play out, but this looks positive in the sense that it's a clear decision on Moroff and Luplow as out of the mix--the kinds of calls we need to make about young players right now. Gonzelez basically steps into where Moroff was on the depth chart and we got two lottery ticket prospects.
 
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Empoleon8771

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Have to see how things play out, but this looks positive in the sense that it's a clear decision on Moroff and Luplow as out of the mix--the kinds of calls we need to make about young players right now. Gonzelez basically steps into where Moroff was on the depth chart and we got two lottery ticket prospects.

It actually sounds like Gonzalez is going to be challenging for the starting SS spot, at least to start. I think the plan with him is to let him and Newman battle it out for the SS spot, and if/when Newman eclipses Gonzalez, Gonzalez will get demoted to a super utility guy role. I actually don't think Gonzalez will be bad if he's the starting SS, I'm not sure he'd be worse than what Mercer was most of the time.

The big thing I'm curious to see with Gonzalez is how much he can develop his power. He has shown glimpses of power in the minors and majors so far, with slugging .436 in AA and .406 in AAA (he slugged .450 in 2016 and .431 in 2017 in AAA, too). He slugged .418 in the majors with the Indians in 2017, too. If he can hit with a .425 or so slugging% going forward, he'd be a good bit better than Mercer ever was, since Mercer was a poor defender.
 
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DJ Spinoza

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Thanks, I hadn't quite looked into it in any detail or considered that option. I think it would be an interesting gamble -- it might mean that whatever measly money there is to spend will be used for a clear offensive upgrade, rather than maybe spending most of it on a more comfortable stopgap player like Iglesias as a defensive wiz.

I'm on the fence about it. I think the inclination to interpret him as in the mix for SS makes a lot of sense, since Kang isn't going to play there, and it sounds like Frazier may be ticketed as the permanent starting 2B. There are so many moving parts with all these positions--3B, SS, 2B, RF-- but one possible angle to look at this is in terms of Polanco's replacement. Maybe we'll spend the money to get the solid bat in Gonzalez, and see what kind of coverage we can get from a competition at SS, with the larger goal being to have a cheap bridge to Tucker next year.

I still there there could be shoes to drop, so we have to wait and see what comes next, but it would definitely be an interesting gamble. I do think there is still the general positive sign here that we are moving on from Luplow and Moroff, who are both useful enough depth options, but we need to take some gambles to move beyond just a bunch of replacement level possibilities. As you point out, Gonzaelez might be able to outpace that.

One thing I'd still like to see as a gamble, which is so unlikely as to be stupid to even say, is to look at AJ Pollock as an option. Between not really needing a starter once Polanco comes back and also having to give up a pick, there's just no way, but I think his upside is a lot higher. However, even though it looks like he might be one of the most hyped mid-tier options in free agency, Gonzalez actually is starting to look like someone who could be the right target, precisely because he can start as Polanco's replacement but then settle into a super utility role, covering almost everywhere including Bell at 1B. I don't see any indication that the will or commitment is there to snag a mid-tier option like Gonzaelez or the riskier Pollock, but at least in theory if we have two league minimum players at SS, enough money might be available to try and concentrate it on one guy of that caliber.
 

WheresRamziAbid

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Sounds like a solod utility guy that will be given the oppurtunity to play his way into more. Thats more than i can say for Moroff or Luplow. Though they do have a punchers chance at breaking out i guess
 

Winger for Hire

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I have this feeling somewhere in my gut that Moreoff is going to have a Steve Pearce type career, probably minus the WS MVP.

ETA- This is not to say the Pirates shouldn't have moved on from him. They weren't going to use him and his "showcase" time is up because Newman, Kramer, and, soon, Tucker are due for theirs. I would have liked to see him get a better solid block of time, but he never forced their hand. I'm not sad to see him go; I just have unanswered questions, similar to Hanson.
 
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Empoleon8771

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I don't have a problem with the trade, but i was hoping the Pirates would go after a bigger player then Gonzalez.

That's my concern too, he seems like a solid option that has the potential to be above average, but I wanted to see them actually be aggressive this off-season. Re-signing Kang and acquiring Gonzalez isn't being aggressive.

It seems like the Pirates have really good depth right now, but it's to the point where they have too many mediocre players and not enough good players. Their day 1 infield next year is probably Bell, Frazier, Gonzalez and Moran right now, that's not bad but it's just so damn mediocre. They need to get better players, but they just have their roster basically full already with a bunch of mediocrity.
 

JimmyTwoTimes

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Getting rid of Luplow, while Polanco will be out for a while....is encouraging they are going after a top OF.

If not they would have just kept him to go with Reyes. He didnt play bad..showed some signs of improvement...possibly being able to produce for us this season.

So IMO they like Gonzalez and made room for another impact OF bat. While Reyes can be the bench guy. And hopefully pickup where he left off
 

Empoleon8771

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Getting rid of Luplow, while Polanco will be out for a while....is encouraging they are going after a top OF.

If not they would have just kept him to go with Reyes. He didnt play bad..showed some signs of improvement...possibly being able to produce for us this season.

So IMO they like Gonzalez and made room for another impact OF bat. While Reyes can be the bench guy. And hopefully pickup where he left off

That's an interesting way to describe Jon Jay :laugh:

I imagine they'll start the year with something like:

C: Cervelli and Diaz platooning
1B: Bell
2B: Frazier
3B: Kang and Moran platooning
SS: Gonzalez
LF: Dickerson
CF: Marte
RF: Jay
Extra players: Reyes as a super utility guy, Osuna as a backup 1B and RF option

I'm just scared that they won't even sign someone like Jay, and instead will let Reyes and Osuna handle the RF duties until Polanco is back, and the extra roster spot will be given to Newman.
 

Winger for Hire

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That's an interesting way to describe Jon Jay :laugh:

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