OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: More of the same

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WheresRamziAbid

Registered User
Oct 31, 2013
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It's not a reductionist argument, it's a pragmatic one. The cold, hard fact of the matter is, the vast majority of teams are not playing in September as they would during the bulk of season. The Pirates are not much different; does Pablo Reyes play in July? Not unless there's a catastrophe. Therefore, the results are unreliable as a gauge for the season and as a predictor of the next.

It's glorified spring training, and skews the end-result of the season.

Except you would be the first person here bitching and moaning if they were getting slaughtered all September.

The fact is there is NO one month sample that can tell you anything about a baseball team. NONE. Not September, not June, not any month. Arbitrarily picking a month they do well to plant your flag on the "this means nothing" hill is just is just as meaningless as the games your calling meaningless.
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,123
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I wonder if AJ Pollock might be an outside the box candidate to spend some money on, planting Frazier firmly as the 2B starter from day one of the season? It's probably a decent toss up between him and Brantley for the best OF available outside of Harper, and both have injury concerns, but if we had Pollock and Marte at their best, we'd really be in good shape at the top of the order, especially if Frazier hits like we expect.

It's hard to project what kind of contracts will be given out and so on, and there are strong reasons to be skittish around a 31 year old who has had bad injuries and relies somewhat strongly on his speed, but these kinds of things matter less for the Pirates because the window is 2019/2020 and maybe 21. So with guys like Escobar and Pollock, if we have a year or two beyond that, we deal with that later on, and see what kind of rebuilding value we can get at that point for someone like Marte, Taillon, etc.

I fully expect to be convincing myself that Escobar is at least the most reasonable, but I think there are both strictly baseball and non-baseball arguments that are convincing to the effect that we need to throw some caution to the wind and spend in a vaguely moderately uncomfortable way (and I don't think we will actually do this, hence why I say I expect to be convincing myself that Escobar is most reasonable and what we can hope for).

Pollock
Marte
Frazier
Cervelli/Diaz/Dickerson
Escobar
Cervelli/Diaz/Dickerson
Bell
Moran/Other 3B/Newman/Other SS (depending on Escobar at SS/3B)
Pitcher

Seems like a much better lineup than almost anything else I can dream up. And once Polanco is healthy, it's not like any of the 4 OFs would be sure things, with in any case Pollock being some insurance for the years after. This gives you a fighting chance at a decently above average offense while still holding out some hopeful space for Bell and Moran to improve a bit, with Craig and Hayes on the horizon. The sundry of Reyes, Kramer, Newman, Osuna can be reasonable bench options, though that's not a strong bench necessarily.

I'd still want to see pitching bolstered by just getting a power lefty arm like Wilson, but otherwise I don't really think you need to touch it. We're set with Crick, Kela, and Vazquez, and still have RichRod as the swiss army knife. Losing Santana is a blow, but 4 extremely good pitchers remains a luxury, and the long-man roles + maybe one spot can be filled internally as cheaply as possible.

Would be helpful to get some baseline estimates for what the post-arbitration cap situation likely looks like, but just taking the salaries of S-Rod, Freese, Harrison, and Mercer and you have approximately 26 million. Free agent salaries are always inflated, but I can't really imagine Pollock + Escobar getting too much more than that combined. If I had to just guess blindly, given how many entry level contracts there are, we can probably make two mid-level signings like this and remain under 100 million.
 

DanielPlainview

Registered User
Apr 28, 2009
8,808
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Except you would be the first person here *****ing and moaning if they were getting slaughtered all September.

The fact is there is NO one month sample that can tell you anything about a baseball team. NONE. Not September, not June, not any month. Arbitrarily picking a month they do well to plant your flag on the "this means nothing" hill is just is just as meaningless as the games your calling meaningless.

1. No, I wouldn't complain about September results.

2. I'm not talking about September in isolation but in relation to the rest of the seasons, i.e. management and the staff slapping themselves on the back over a winning record that was made by beating teams with a foot on the beach in September.
 

Winger for Hire

Praise Beebo
Dec 9, 2013
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As opposed by a team getting a winning record via April/March wins against teams injured out of camp or winning sloppy snow flurry games? Or a slew of August wins vs teams that just sold everything? July wins vs teams that had injuries fall at the wrong time?

If you clinch a winning record before Sept, you are having an amazing season. Every team needs to win Sept games. Period.

Just look across the state at Philly. They were like 15 games over coming into Sept, then ran off like a 4 win month and not only missed out on a winning record but missed the playoffs because of a sloppy Sept vs teams with a "foot on the bench".
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
80,386
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Redmond, WA
Pirates win today, finishing their season at 82-79. Having less than 80 losses just looks so much better to me for some reason :laugh:

I think everyone should be happy with this season, the team showed that they have good potential going forward. This team is only 1 or 2 pieces away from being a legitimate playoff contender. Have the young guys continue to progress and add some power to the lineup and they'll be well set for the future.
 
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DanielPlainview

Registered User
Apr 28, 2009
8,808
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As opposed by a team getting a winning record via April/March wins against teams injured out of camp or winning sloppy snow flurry games? Or a slew of August wins vs teams that just sold everything? July wins vs teams that had injuries fall at the wrong time?

If you clinch a winning record before Sept, you are having an amazing season. Every team needs to win Sept games. Period.

Just look across the state at Philly. They were like 15 games over coming into Sept, then ran off like a 4 win month and not only missed out on a winning record but missed the playoffs because of a sloppy Sept vs teams with a "foot on the bench".

Those things are not comparable. All of those things are merely part of the game; weather, injuries, trades affect every team.

The rosters expand in September for a reason and it's because the league and teams know this is a time of year when a lot of teams are done and it would be useful for them to get looks minor league guys.

I get it. You don't want to pooh-pooh a "winning season". But you're too busy trying to put lipstick on a pig here, and while you're doing that, you're ignoring what is plain to see: the Pirates are not a .500+ ballteam, they just took advantage of the dregs of the league at the end of the year.
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
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77,969
Redmond, WA
The fact that the Pirates finished over .500 completely disproves your crackpot theory that they're not a .500 team. Games in September still count, just because you think they count for less doesn't mean they actually count for less. That's just idiotic, it sounds like a yinzer trying to rationalize how they weren't wrong for crapping on the Pirates earlier in the year.
 
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Brandinho

deng xiaoping gang
Aug 28, 2005
14,804
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The fact that the Pirates finished over .500 completely disproves your crackpot theory that they're not a .500 team. Games in September still count, just because you think they count for less doesn't mean they actually count for less. That's just idiotic, it sounds like a yinzer trying to rationalize how they weren't wrong for crapping on the Pirates earlier in the year.

The Pirates aren't a .500+ ball team, despite the fact that they finished with a .509 winning percentage. Hilarious.
 

Winger for Hire

Praise Beebo
Dec 9, 2013
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The Pirates played a bunch of games vs StL, Mil, Chi, Atl during the "foot on the bench" month of Sept.

No one is trying to put any lipstick on anything; just pointing out that teams need Sept wins just as much as others and there's plenty of teams still clawing tooth and nail during the month.
 
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AverageJoeFan

Mad cat
Feb 15, 2018
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Pittsburgh
Pirates win today, finishing their season at 82-79. Having less than 80 losses just looks so much better to me for some reason :laugh:

I think everyone should be happy with this season, the team showed that they have good potential going forward. This team is only 1 or 2 pieces away from being a legitimate playoff contender. Have the young guys continue to progress and add some power to the lineup and they'll be well set for the future.
I tend to agree with most of the stuff you post, however, with this I am going to say it's more than 1-2 players. Take what you said, add in consistency(guys like Bell need to produce more), then mix in a winning mentality and I think you have a shot. But that shot is more than likely at a WC spot. They just don't have the power, pitching, nor the defense to win the division or the title. That would take maybe 3-4 major signings.

Overall, I am very pleased on the their record. I picked 76 wins I think at the beginning so they beat my expectations.
 

cookthebooks

Registered User
Oct 4, 2017
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lol the brewers and cubs would’ve both loved to beat the pirates once more to avoid what they have today
 

JimmyTwoTimes

Registered User
Apr 13, 2010
19,958
5,281
We finish with 16th pick in draft now...watch there be a Javier Baez type player available at 10-15
 

Empoleon8771

Registered User
Aug 25, 2015
80,386
77,969
Redmond, WA
I tend to agree with most of the stuff you post, however, with this I am going to say it's more than 1-2 players. Take what you said, add in consistency(guys like Bell need to produce more), then mix in a winning mentality and I think you have a shot. But that shot is more than likely at a WC spot. They just don't have the power, pitching, nor the defense to win the division or the title. That would take maybe 3-4 major signings.

Overall, I am very pleased on the their record. I picked 76 wins I think at the beginning so they beat my expectations.

Honestly, I don't agree with this. I think you just have to have guys play to their capabilities and add a good power bat to their infield. You're right with consistency, but I think you can just add 1 guy and be a playoff team with getting consistency from guys like Bell, Marte and Polanco. I think you have the pitching to win a division, and I think you can have the power if your guys play to their capabilities and Hurdle gives them a piece or 2. On defense, I think they're so far off from that. I don't expect them to get close to division winning caliber defense, they're just a terrible defensive team from my complete lack of research.
 

JimmyTwoTimes

Registered User
Apr 13, 2010
19,958
5,281
I wonder if AJ Pollock might be an outside the box candidate to spend some money on, planting Frazier firmly as the 2B starter from day one of the season? It's probably a decent toss up between him and Brantley for the best OF available outside of Harper, and both have injury concerns, but if we had Pollock and Marte at their best, we'd really be in good shape at the top of the order, especially if Frazier hits like we expect.

It's hard to project what kind of contracts will be given out and so on, and there are strong reasons to be skittish around a 31 year old who has had bad injuries and relies somewhat strongly on his speed, but these kinds of things matter less for the Pirates because the window is 2019/2020 and maybe 21. So with guys like Escobar and Pollock, if we have a year or two beyond that, we deal with that later on, and see what kind of rebuilding value we can get at that point for someone like Marte, Taillon, etc.

I fully expect to be convincing myself that Escobar is at least the most reasonable, but I think there are both strictly baseball and non-baseball arguments that are convincing to the effect that we need to throw some caution to the wind and spend in a vaguely moderately uncomfortable way (and I don't think we will actually do this, hence why I say I expect to be convincing myself that Escobar is most reasonable and what we can hope for).

Pollock
Marte
Frazier
Cervelli/Diaz/Dickerson
Escobar
Cervelli/Diaz/Dickerson
Bell
Moran/Other 3B/Newman/Other SS (depending on Escobar at SS/3B)
Pitcher

Seems like a much better lineup than almost anything else I can dream up. And once Polanco is healthy, it's not like any of the 4 OFs would be sure things, with in any case Pollock being some insurance for the years after. This gives you a fighting chance at a decently above average offense while still holding out some hopeful space for Bell and Moran to improve a bit, with Craig and Hayes on the horizon. The sundry of Reyes, Kramer, Newman, Osuna can be reasonable bench options, though that's not a strong bench necessarily.

I'd still want to see pitching bolstered by just getting a power lefty arm like Wilson, but otherwise I don't really think you need to touch it. We're set with Crick, Kela, and Vazquez, and still have RichRod as the swiss army knife. Losing Santana is a blow, but 4 extremely good pitchers remains a luxury, and the long-man roles + maybe one spot can be filled internally as cheaply as possible.

Would be helpful to get some baseline estimates for what the post-arbitration cap situation likely looks like, but just taking the salaries of S-Rod, Freese, Harrison, and Mercer and you have approximately 26 million. Free agent salaries are always inflated, but I can't really imagine Pollock + Escobar getting too much more than that combined. If I had to just guess blindly, given how many entry level contracts there are, we can probably make two mid-level signings like this and remain under 100 million.

With them having a solid staff in place..not unreasonable for FAs to decide to come here...maybe on a 2-3 year deal. Not gonna get those guys for less. Escobar already signed a 1 year deal and will probably look to get paid.

If we could find that type of player(someone cheaper on a "prove it" contract that'd be great but dont trust NH to find those types in FA.
 
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