OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Fire Sale Edition?

[Coastal Kev]

Tickets cost like $20, and barely anyone shows up. Most of their revenue is from TV money and revenue sharing. I don't know about now but a couple years ago the Pirates were the 3rd most profitable team in the majors. More profit than even the Red Sox.
Pirates don't need fans to come to the games. And I bet ownership doesn't care either. They're making big profit either way.

True, but every ticket not spent is that much less on profit. If you decrease profit enough, maybe Nutting sells and cashes out his huge profit.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Pardon my ignorance because I really am completely out of my element on this subject but doesn't the way in which MLB has revenue sharing and TV contract payouts set up more or less make it so that the Pirates could play to an empty or near empty PNC and Nutting would still make money? Or is that vastly sublimating and/or misrepresenting things?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Pardon my ignorance because I really am completely out of my element on this subject but doesn't the way in which MLB has revenue sharing and TV contract payouts set up more or less make it so that the Pirates could play to an empty or near empty PNC and Nutting would still make money? Or is that vastly sublimating and/or misrepresenting things?

There were 1.4 million (actually a little more than that but whatever) tickets sold for home games last year, 2018.

If the average price of a ticket is $20 then right there you have roughly 28 million gone. Poof. That alone would hurt Nutting. That doesn't even include merch, food, beverages which would easily total in the millions, probably tens of millions. Now you're really putting the squeeze on him. And yes I get that not all those millions go directly to the bottom line, but the point is, people staying a way would have a big impact. But like most things today, people talk but rarely follow through.

Plus, if nobody showed up to PNC, MLB would force a change. It's that simple. And secondly, if nobody showed up, Nutting would sell. The valuation of the team would start dropping and losing money/value is not something a guy like Nutting will endure. Period.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Or he’d call Charlotte and see if they’ll build him a stadium

 

[Empoleon8771]

But you're not getting everyone to stop buying tickets, because again, a ton of people who go to Pirates games don't give a crap how much Nutting puts into the team. Casual fans who just like going to the ballpark on a nice summer evening will still go. Fans of rival teams will still go. School field trips to PNC will still happen. Fans who only go for the promotions will still go. Families who want to take their kids to a baseball game will still go. The Pirates will still be getting money from the TV deal (which will be a substantial increase on what they have now) and revenue sharing.

A boycott won't cut down 17,000 tickets a night. It might cut down 4,000, and that's me being generous. The Pirates went 57-105 in 2010, which was their 18th losing season in a row. They still averaged 20k fans a night that year.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Some people say calling a spade a spade is an insult. I have no idea what politics has to do with any of this.

All I know is that a baseball franchise has never changed the way they do things because of a fan boycott. If it has ever happened, it has not been recently. Nutting is gonna make his cash no matter what anybody does and, like most owners, his franchise is more of a status symbol than anything. The profits he makes off this is money he will never spend. If he ever stops making money, he sells to another version of himself.

The problems with this league go far deeper than one owner and they sure as **** are not the responsibility of the fans.

Even if a boycott happened, they would make money when the Cards and Cubs come to town. People will watch on tv.

The boycott is a fantasy. You can either accept that as a fact or you can become a Yankees fan and not have to worry about payroll.

So when a team blatantly goes out of their way to field a shit roster we should just scream loyalty and be done with it? Anyone who disagrees is a fantasy land loon? You know what IS fantasy? Watching the same shit unfold, year after year, and expecting anything to be different the next. I'd say the same shit if the Pens (they used to be in this boat btw) and Steelers pulled the crap Nutting is.

That's my entire point. Nutting gives zero shit about the product, other than the money he brings in for himself. It's beyond obvious when Hurdle is STILL employed. Huntington is STILL employed. All these years later, looooong after their grand plan was laid out. Forget the drastically dwindling payroll. The moves we make and don't make are precisely why people like me won't care and won't watch the Pirates. They don't deserve my time and certainly not my money because what the hell good does it do?

And of course, the response will be, "well why do you argue about the Pirates then if you don't care".

Because I don't believe in blind loyalty, especially when it's the fans who make all this sports shit possible. We're the ones dolling out the cash. I expect results. At least a f***ing effort.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

It is a business.

If Nutting sells, whoever buys is gonna determine that free agents are costly and high risk. They will try to build the team through the farm because they will determine that they can't afford the luxury of premium free agents in their market. They will keep payroll low and produce a nice profit.

There is no financial incentive to do anything more. It is really that simple.

Accepting the reality of the situation is not blind loyalty. Major league baseball is the peak of the sport for fans and the Pirates charge scraps for the privilege. There is simply not enough demand for a boycott.

And anybody's opinion on a boycott is not the point, anyway. My point is that it is bogus and shameful to criticize people for not boycotting or to blame the problems of the team on the lack of a boycott.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

There were 1.4 million (actually a little more than that but whatever) tickets sold for home games last year, 2018.

If the average price of a ticket is $20 then right there you have roughly 28 million gone. Poof. That alone would hurt Nutting. That doesn't even include merch, food, beverages which would easily total in the millions, probably tens of millions. Now you're really putting the squeeze on him. And yes I get that not all those millions go directly to the bottom line, but the point is, people staying a way would have a big impact. But like most things today, people talk but rarely follow through.

Plus, if nobody showed up to PNC, MLB would force a change. It's that simple. And secondly, if nobody showed up, Nutting would sell. The valuation of the team would start dropping and losing money/value is not something a guy like Nutting will endure. Period.

I gotcha. I think it's tough to deny that it would put the squeeze on them but wouldn't they just continue to cut payroll, amenities, etc? Then blame it on the fans? They kinda did that a few years ago IIRC by doing some sort of smarmy press release about the fans needing to be more excited about the product or somesuch garbage.

But I tend to agree with you that if they were playing to like... 300 people a night on average there would be SOME kind of consequence. I just don't think it's realistic. These boycotts never pan out and even if they gain some traction the rich and powerful buy their way out of the mess and move on to the next scam.

Yes, I'm jaded.

In essence I guess I agree with you. I just don't ever see it making a difference here in reality. It's like herding cats. People are just so tired, overworked, stressed and generally overwhelmed and overstimulated that I feel like getting that kind of movement together for a sports team will inevitably go off the rails or fall to the wayside. We can't even get off our couch for important, life-impacting stuff. Not that I'm trying to belittle our love of sport.

Just my 0.02. I really shouldn't put my iron into this fire.

 

[ImporterExporter]

It is a business.

If Nutting sells, whoever buys is gonna determine that free agents are costly and high risk. They will try to build the team through the farm because they will determine that they can't afford the luxury of premium free agents in their market. They will keep payroll low and produce a nice profit.

There is no financial incentive to do anything more. It is really that simple.

Accepting the reality of the situation is not blind loyalty. Major league baseball is the peak of the sport for fans and the Pirates charge scraps for the privilege. There is simply not enough demand for a boycott.

And anybody's opinion on a boycott is not the point, anyway. My point is that it is bogus and shameful to criticize people for not boycotting or to blame the problems of the team on the lack of a boycott.

Wrong. All wrong.

Pittsburgh is not a big market, BUT it is a major sports market in that, when you put a product on the field/ice/whatever that wins, you will get a major boom in interest = more profits. The city of Pittsburgh is only a few hundred thousand strong, but the surrounding burbs put that number well over a million. We saw what happened a few years back when we made the playoffs for the first time in 2 decades. PNC packed, a raging fan base that wanted nothing more than to experience that feeling year in and year out. What did we get? Middling attempts to bolster the roster, and then subsequent jettison of payroll. We got a whiff of winning and Nutting squashed it.

There is no reason, none at all, why this team should have the 2nd lowest payroll in baseball and continue to employ dolts in key positions that have managed to stay employed despite producing next to zero results. Not in the city of Pittsburgh which has one of the richest traditions of sport, dating back well over a century.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I wish the team was rebuilding or in the race because every year they do this treading water crap, we get the same ownership talk and after ~5 years or so on this board it gets old and grating.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I will say that, even as an outsider, it sucks to see a guy like Nutting torpedo such a historic franchise. Pittsburgh is a sleeping giant of a baseball city. I mean... that's really what it started as. There are deep roots, there. I truly hope something is done but so long as MLB allows the Pirates to basically be a license to print money for Bob Nutting... I just dunno.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

I wish the team was rebuilding or in the race because every year they do this treading water crap, we get the same ownership talk and after ~5 years or so on this board it gets old and grating.

I wish they were rebuilding or in the race because it would be good for the team, fans, and the city. Not because of what people want to talk about on a hockey message board.

I get that it's painful to be a fan of this franchise but the topic is not going to go away. And frankly, no matter how repetitive, it merits more discussion than what's going on on the field. You just have to hold your nose and deal with it, just like we all deal with the team's irrelevance.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Building through the farm isn't a bad idea in itself. The problem is how players are managed for maximum control instead of trying to build the best big league club. Like this year, once it was clear the season was in the tank, every young pitcher and position player that's on the cusp of a call-up should have been up. That's what a well-run franchise would do.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I wish they were rebuilding or in the race because it would be good for the team, fans, and the city. Not because of what people want to talk about on a hockey message board.

I hope you know that's not what I'm getting at

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Say what you will or won't about a boycott being effective or not...I reached the point where I couldn't in good conscious continue supporting Nutting any further. I know the ~$400 I spent annually on baseball won't make a dent in the way anything works, but I just can't continue to accept a system that disgusts me. There's too much to do in life to continue giving 3 hours a night and a slice of my heart to an organization that doesn't value my time.

My civic pride is not the piggy bank for some shitty wealthy asshole who only owns the team because he comes from a long line of shitty wealthy assholes.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Again, I understand not giving money to the franchise.

I do not understand shaming fans who do.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Again, I understand not giving money to the franchise.

I do not understand shaming fans who do.

Oh, I want no part of that. My decision was my decision alone. The constant negativity wore me down too much for me to perpetuate it.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Building through the farm isn't a bad idea in itself. The problem is how players are managed for maximum control instead of trying to build the best big league club. Like this year, once it was clear the season was in the tank, every young pitcher and position player that's on the cusp of a call-up should have been up. That's what a well-run franchise would do.

Agreed. And our farm is getting better, next year should finally see fillers at AAA and AA finally gone and having actual good prospects there. But would be even more stacked if we had this bad of a season the last few years too. Not only getting higher draft picks but selling at each deadline(and no Archer trade). Guys like Cervelli, Harrison(who was an all star a few years ago and considered one of best utilty guys in the league), etc. But instead didnt get any assets for them. The few trades NH did make he actually did well. Tony Watson for Oneil Cruz. Getting Tanaj Thomas for Luplow/Max Moroff. Even David Freese trade last year we got Jesus Valdez who was consideredered high risk high reward like Cruz. Only having 1 year of DSL , no experience at age 20. And so far this year hes been great....

Jesus Valdez Minor Leagues Statistics & History | Baseball-Reference.com

And just hit another HR today adding 3 more RBIs.

So we could have seen more trades like that instead of the 80 win seasons and no changes made. And some top 5 picks instead of the 10-18 like we had.

This year is exactly what we needed to happen. Actually excited about our prospects...keep seeing more and more emerge. Pitchers in Greensboro continue to pitch great(then get promoted to High A) giving them a 74-53 record. Even DSL 2 Pirates who are 55-15. I normally wouldnt factor those guys in but Mojica is breaking records there being compared to players like Cabrera. Custodip, Romero, etc all putting up ridiculous numbers as well as the pitching staff. Would like to see them win the DSL title(starts on Monday) and maybe that creates some buzz, getting more top International prospects wanting to sign in Pitt.

So while things look bad right now, We have a ton of exciting prospects at every level. Imo just need to fire Hurdle and Searage and see what these guys do next year under new coaching.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Again, I understand not giving money to the franchise.

I do not understand shaming fans who do.

You can do whatever you please. Just as I can call out people for continuing to support and fund a man who has kept one of the longest standing franchises in baseball history in the dark ages. A billionaire, how many times over, is more worried about middling revenue than he is putting a decent product on the field. And as myself, and others have pointed out, winning and spending even just a modest amount, would almost surely lead to a major influx of fans, which in turn would create even more revenue. Certainly more than the bump in initial spending. Nobody is saying we need 150 million dollar in payroll, but claiming our market can't handle spending, when Pittsburgh has one of the richest sports history (including baseball btw) in North American history, is ludicrous.

If you want to support Nutting fine. But don't get pissed when people call it like it is. Because paying money that goes to the Pirates, is supporting Nutting at the end of the day. And I will not give someone my hard earned money that clearly doesn't care about what I'm watching.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

We now have a SP with an ERA under 4

Brault our New Ace

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

btw did Hurdle give instructions to Indys coach tonight

Blake Cederlind got promoted…his first game and went 1 IP with no hits and 2Ks. But 27 pitches. They decide to put him back out for a 2nd inning(when that’s not what he is) and allow him to throw 47 pitches while getting blown up for 3 runs and losing the lead. Dude throws over 100, trying to blow his arm out? Not to mention it being his first game there.
Anyway theres hope with him going forward, had a great season in Altoona and has the stuff. How about not forcing him to throw close to 50 pitches again tho?

Some great performances all throughout the system tonight. Between Grant Jennings and Tanaj Thomas with great starts to Bae getting 5 RBIs on 4 for 4 and 3 runs with a SB to Rodolfo Castro going 3 for 4 with 2 doubles...and so on.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Works of art...

 

[JBose7]

Ray doesn't change anything (anything major at least. Any coach is going to tweak and suggest slightly more efficient movements and point out flaws) when they get to the majors, the pitchers are just unprepared to not get by on their natural stuff. AAA to MLB is like the jump from RK and A- to Hi A ball.

Those are the levels where coaching is very important. when you make the jump to Hi A, you leave behind the league where you can get by with a dominant FB and a single mediocre breaking pitch. The hitters that make it to that level can hit that weak breaking stuff and have a more selective eye. Similarly, the jump from AAA to the majors is another big step where a lot of organizational filler sits. At AAA a pitcher with refined natural stuff and passable control can a do a lot of damage without locating well and basic pitch sequencing. This is where I feel that the Pirates are dropping the ball a lot, mainly the pitch sequencing. They're having pitchers with very good natural stuff throw the organizational philosophy of "Get an out in 3 pitches or less" and it's not forcing the pitchers, mainly the starters, to sequence effectively since they can get some quick whiffs from bad hitters and/or a lot of bad contact on chasing pitches. So when they make that jump, they're not prepared to cerebrally attack hitters. A majority of MLB hitters are going to spit on breaking balls if you don't set them up properly and/or can't throw it constantly for a strike and sit on the fastball.

However, I think this approach is why they are able to churn out and maximize their bullpen arms. 3 pitches or less is basically a reliever's mentality and working with them to hone that allows any pitcher only going an inning or two to play up their stuff and have a reliever's mentality from the get go. They don't have to worry about seeing that batter again or having a repeat sequence being exploited later down the lineup.

This isn't to say I think Searage should stay. I've been beating the move on for Searage drum for about 3 seasons now. I don't think his method of fixing pitchers is working anymore, and hasn't worked since Benedict left for Miami. I believe Benedict was the one who was able to spot the talent that was ripe for Ray's treatment. With Ray and Jim, they hit big and often in reclamation projects with AJ, Liriano, Volquez, Happ, Vance Worley, and the first step of Charlie Morton as well as bullpen mainstays like Grilli, Watson, Justin Wilson, Melancon, Hughes, Blanton. Without Benedict most, if not all, of the Pirates' similar pitchers have flamed out (Lyles, Niese, Voglesong, Hudson, LeBlanc, Bastardo part II, Benoit, Rookie Davis).

I disagree. Making a pitcher change his approach IS a MAJOR change. It is why a guy like J.A Happ can go from meh underachievier to looking like Barry Zito in his prime in a few weeks. Imagine changing how you approach pitching can lead to that much success in the short-term imagine long-term consequences if the the coach messes him

 

[Winger for Hire]

I disagree. Making a pitcher change his approach IS a MAJOR change. It is why a guy like J.A Happ can go from meh underachievier to looking like Barry Zito in his prime in a few weeks. Imagine changing how you approach pitching can lead to that much success in the short-term imagine long-term consequences if the the coach messes him

Happ had success because Searage told him his most successful outings came early in his career when he was pitching from the opposite side of the rubber and told him to stop throwing his curveball and lean on the fastball more. Those aren't exactly major changes. What the Rays did to Glasnow (changed his entire windup) and the Astros did to Morton and Cole (let them ditch pitches they weren't comfortable with, pitch off an elevated fastball, and use their out pitch more- Cole's slider and Morton's curve) were major changes. Searage could probably benefit more from trying out some major changes with certain pitchers. For example changing pitch grips, glove position in the windup, etc would be major changes. Telling someone to move to the 3rd base side of the rubber and throw more fastballs is as minor a change as you can get.

Searage's approach has always been:

Step 1: Look at video of the pitcher's most successful stretch
Step 2: See what has changed in the mechanics/setup since then
Step 3: Keep tweaking until desired results are achieved

Those kinds of changes are relatively small because their minds and bodies already have that muscle memory, they've just gotten away from it.

That's why his successes have entirely been with veteran pitchers with spotty track records. Not a single young pitcher has had any sustained success under Searage and I firmly believe it's because of his approach of small tweaks based on prior successes; young pitchers have no such video for Ray to dissect and tweak back to.

I also think he is put behind the 8-ball some due to the way the Pirates develop, or more accurately, fail to develop, their pitchers in terms of developing pitches early in their minor league careers and advanced pitch sequencing in the higher levels of the minors. Those two things have hurt a lot of the pitchers coming up to the big club and, as someone stated earlier in the thread, is a big reason why Glasnow and Keller didn't have immediate success, especially on the secondary pitch development side.

This is also seen from interviews with Shane Baz:
"Almost immediately, the Rays were more -- I don't want to talk bad about the Pirates -- just completely different, honestly," Baz said. "It was a whole new perspective, a new approach to pitching. I saw pretty quickly that I would be big in spin rate and that stuff. They told me my fastball would have the top spin rate in the majors, if I was pitching there right now. I don't have to be right at the knees every time because the movement is going to be so good, guys aren't going to hit the fastball anyway. The slider is so hard, too, that it's going to be a good pitch as long as the arm slot is the same. The same with my curve and change. That was the first thing they showed me, and when I saw it in action, I just thought, 'OK, great.' Instructs (rookie ball) was a good little trial run, and I've carried that into this year."

 

[TNT87]