OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Duct Tape and Bubble Gum

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DJ Spinoza

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I'm actually surprised so many others of you are watching this game. There has to be a newly minted mental disorder for those of us willing to sit through this yet again, with the absolute certainty that we're going to lose a 5th in a row (and move into the cellar of the division if the Reds can win).
 

DJ Spinoza

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Aug 7, 2003
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Read this at the same time as I watched Archer give up his fifth HR of the game on an absolute meatball.



There is nothing good and there never will be anything good for this franchise. There is hope, but not for us.
 

ChaosAgent

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May 8, 2018
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I am so profoundly sad for this team. I can't even follow it any more which certainly makes summer a lonelier time.

I've supported Huntington in the past, but he must go. Searage should have been gone 2 weeks ago. Hurdle, too. Then gut the team.
 

DanielPlainview

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Apr 28, 2009
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I don't think they need to gut the team (it's mostly younger players). The coaching staff needs to go for sure, except for maybe Eckstein who seems to have improved the hitting this year.

It all starts at the top. I'm not a Cheap Nutting-er, but I've never gotten the sense that he's a competitive owner, meaning I think it's apparent the Pirates are more of a portfolio piece/business venture than an extension of a competitor's appetite. So, any changes we want to see likely won't happen unless the bottom line is threatened.
 
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JimmyTwoTimes

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Apr 13, 2010
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I just want them to get a top 10 pick now. Preferably close to top 5 but I still think they are too good for that to happen. The future players who we expect to be good hasnt changed...our window(if you believe there is one which I do, just not with Archer that NH believed) is pushed back because of injuries but now we have the chance to adjust and extend the window by being sellers at the deadline . something we should have done last year but had horrible luck with a winning steak(only the Pirates could pull that off..this team has been cursed...the 3 years they are good for the first time in 20, the playoff rules change. 11 game win streak right before the deadline and then getting 2 injuries and losing after its over) but we can make up for that by trading away guys this year.

Good returns on Melky and Dickerson. Melky could land us a solid prospect and we gave up nothing to get him. Hopefully Lyles comes back and pitches well...trade him. Id trade Archer..the return wont be what we gave up of course but he still has value. Teams wanted him last year, we just happened to overpay ...and they will take a chance on him thinking his problems are due to the trade itself. NH willing to admit that mistake is the problem.

We could make the most out of this injury filled season and be a better team next year because of it. And it wouldn't prevent us from going on a run after the deadline if we do get healthy...also makes room for the young players to be up full time and get that experience in. With Melky and Dickerson gone(possibly Kang too if he can start hitting..who knows) we should see Kramer and Craig. Maybe Hayes as well if he didnt get hurt longterm tonight.

As for the future theres still plenty to look forward to. The ones mentioned above and the next wave in 2020-21 in Swaggerty, Mitchell, Cruz, and another group of talented pitchers in Keller, Cody Bolton, Brubaker, Case, etc...someone has to breakout finally. Speaking of that..if the season is lost then just keep going with the same young pitchers and see who(if any) can finally stick. Let Holmes, Kingham, Feliz, Never..etc..keep pitching the rest of the year. Then we will know for sure either way and move on or finally get what we were supposed to from them. Id guess at least 1 or 2 step up when that pressure for them to succeed dies down.

We had a great starting rotation to start the year but after that the rest of the guys were young....little experience..and all failed to breakout. If they were able to slowly work their way in things may have been different. As down as we are on those guys I wouldnt give up yet seeing how good our pitchers become once elsewhere.

Sell at the deadline...let the young guys play..and fire NH/Hurdle. 2020 will actually be the start of another 3 year run
 
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Empoleon8771

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Aug 25, 2015
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Here's a good question to let roll around in your head... do the Pirates pick up Archer's $8m+ option this offseaaon?

Yes solely because of the sunk cost they paid to acquire him. Personally, I'd be trying to recover anything I could get for Archer at this point. It's going to look heinous if the trade ends up being Glasnow, Meadows and Baz for some mediocre prospect(s) and 20 games of Archer being bad, but you can't just keep hoping Archer turns it around at this point.

According to MLB.com's prospect watch, the Yankees traded their 4th (Mateo), 8th (Kaprielian) and 12th (Fowler) best prospects for Gray in 2017. He had a crap 2018 season and then they traded him for a single prospect on par with Kaprielian or Fowler in 2017. I think the Pirates have to do something like that, just take the loss and move forward. If the Pirates can just get a Baz caliber prospect from someone for Archer, I'm taking that deal immediately.
 

Winger for Hire

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Dec 9, 2013
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I'm not in either camp on the Archer option, just tossing it out there.

And to toss something else to chew on about it... for 100K more and slightly better stats, the team dumped Ivan Nova last offseason.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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This franchise is run by bean counters and bums. It's a disgrace to the city of Pittsburgh and the fans of a franchise that dates back well over 100 years.

I really wish I was crazy enough to take a shit on Nutting's car or something.
 
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cheesedanish87

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Jun 27, 2012
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Were to the point of the year already where you know the team isn't going anywhere and wins and losses aren't that important anymore.

Its about watching the young players like Kellar Reynolds and Newman to see how they perform.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Aug 7, 2003
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Yeah, I don't care about anything else any more, I just want to see Keller have a solid start tonight. Even if it's just 5 IP, 2-3 R, give him something to build on.

We have no chance to beat Soroka anyways, and W/L is only going to become relevant again if we win a bunch of series in a row.
 

cheesedanish87

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Jun 27, 2012
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Here's a good question to let roll around in your head... do the Pirates pick up Archer's $8m+ option this offseaaon?

I still think Archer has some value.

If you watch him pitch i still think he has good stuff, teams will see that and want to take a chance on him.

Take a look at Sonny Gray last year, he had a 5 ERA with NYY and eventually got taken out of the rotation, but still value around MLB because his stuff was still good.

I think Archer could still be a decent MLB pitcher if he goes to a team with a better pitching coach.
 

DanielPlainview

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Apr 28, 2009
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Gray had a ~3.50-3.70 ERA for 5 of the last 7 seasons, Archer hasn't had a sub. 4.00 ERA since 2015 and is 1 year older. I don't think Archer has much trade value, and the lack of internal options makes moving him unlikely
 

Winger for Hire

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Dec 9, 2013
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I wanted to revisit my Bold Predictions of 2019 on this lazy mid June day...

Tucker and Hayes force their way into the lineup. Hayes before Tucker. Kang flashes some power, but the whiffs and lack of anything else force them to turn to Hayes who is making the International League seem like American Legion ball. Tucker might take a little longer because of the team wanting to try out every single other option, including a 2nd and maybe 3rd chance for Gonzo. Extra- Craig will make enough noise to have lot of rumbling about usurping Bell at 1st.

Ummmm, not really correct, but I don't think the general jist is too far off. Cole showed he could hang but needs a little more time. Hayes needs some extra polish as well, but not floundering. Bell's insanity has covered up Craig's solid year so far. Still, can't count it as a win.

Marte breaks out in a big way, like flirting with 30/30. The new hitting philosophy allows his potential to finally unlock. We might see his Ks near the 130 mark, but the increase power will keep the overall profile looking great with somewhere around an .830 OPS floor.

I think a 2nd half surge is on the way, but it's not looking great for this prediction at the moment, but ticking up. I don't think the big power surge is coming, however, to reach 30 HR.

Mitch Keller goes sour, but not useless. He looks OK in Indy, but not good enough to jump into the question mark #5 spot. He'll get blown up just as often as he tosses gems, but won't look lost. The shine will wear off, but he won't be a lost cause; 2020 will be his year. JT Brubaker will be the farmhand with the best shot to really stabilize the 5 spot from June on posting a better than 108 ERA+.

Keller has not soured, but hasn't stood out (in a big way). I think he's hanging around where you'd expect a young pitcher to be. I think a lot of people had too high an outlook for him out of the gate. Bru looked good, then got the injury bug. Maybe he can get in with all the injuries around the team if he gets healthy.

Catcher becomes a carousel with Diaz working back into form, Cervelli finding new ways to get nicked up and needing rest, which allows Stallings to get a fair amount of time and getting exposed because he's not a high volume MLB catcher. Cervelli gets that dreaded ball off the mask and the Pirates have to scramble for a catching solution and make a mid-season-ish trade with the Nats for a catcher.

I think I can count this as a win, though predicting a Cervelli injury isn't exactly going out on a limb.

Melky surprises enough to end up sticking with the team as a very useful 4th OF and ends up returning something of value at the trade deadline. Nothing like a rated prospects, but a prospect on the rating fringes.

tenor.gif

Does it count if I may have undersold Melky?

The Legend of Pablo Reyes turns into a September anomaly. He breaks camp, but is the casualty when Polanco returns. He doesn't do enough to break back into the team in Indy, but makes strides around the diamond to make himself a strong utility candidate next year.

I think this is a solid "Yup"

The next prospect to grab our attention is Conner Uselton. A year removed from completely tearing apart his hammy, last year was his recovery and full intro into pro ball, this should be the year he feels healthy enough to show is athleticism and show that he was worth a top 100 pick in 2017.

Ugh. Let's move on...

Lolo learns how to handle breaking balls well enough to jump back into the mix of MLB type prospects. He swipes 40+ bases but people will still moan about his lack of power.

Oh yea. Lolo is tearing it up in Greensboro. .309/.388/.464 with 19 swipes (but also 10 caught). The power is never going to be his thing, but with that speed and an OBP north of .360... Tucker and Lolo could be premium table setters in the future for the team.
 
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cheesedanish87

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Gray had a ~3.50-3.70 ERA for 5 of the last 7 seasons, Archer hasn't had a sub. 4.00 ERA since 2015 and is 1 year older. I don't think Archer has much trade value, and the lack of internal options makes moving him unlikely

Their was a bidding war for Archer last year and he ended up getting traded for 3 really good prospects.

You don't go from bidding war to no value or very little value because of having 7 poor starts( his first 4 starts this year and his starts last year weren't that bad)

Obviously he doesn't have the same value right now as last year because of poor starts and a year less of control, but its not a case of him having no value or very little value.

Nick Kingham is an example of a pitcher that has no value or very little value.
 
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DanielPlainview

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The Pirates overpaying for Archer last year doesn't say much about his value to other teams this year, and the "bidding war" doesn't mean much unless we know what else was offered.

You don't have to be a bad as Kingham to have little value.
 

cheesedanish87

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Jun 27, 2012
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Pittsburgh
The Pirates overpaying for Archer last year doesn't say much about his value to other teams this year, and the "bidding war" doesn't mean much unless we know what else was offered.

You don't have to be a bad as Kingham to have little value.

Its 7 bad starts.

Its 2 bad months.

No MLB player that was highly thought of as Archer was at this time last year loses all their value based on that.

Go back and look at Archer game log from last year.

He had a 6 ERA after his first 7 starts last year.

Its not like this is the first time in his career hes went through something like this.

Hes not going to be the ace the Pirates thought they were getting, but hes a middle of a rotation type pitcher on a pretty good contract.

That's valuable in baseball.
 

DanielPlainview

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Apr 28, 2009
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Don't be thick in front of me, Al. Archer hasn't been good since June 2015. That's not 7 bad starts. That's not 2 months. That's 4 freakin' years. And on top of it, he's almost 31.
 

cheesedanish87

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Jun 27, 2012
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I'm not sure where your getting 4 years from?

Hes been a middle of a rotation type of pitcher his entire career(some years better then that)

He hasn't had a bad year his entire career where he was anything below a number 3 pitcher.
 
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