Racism In Hockey

[youngblood10]

I just gave you one very famous example of how someone with very ingrained views changed them, and there are many more. So that's just absolutely false. One thing's for sure, the world's not going to change if we're all too lazy to do anything about it.

I want to be respectful & respond but our perspectives are so different. We'll just keep going down rabbit holes.
So I'll leave this thread on this note.
For one, your example doesn't matter. For everyone person who changes for the good, many more are recruited into hate groups or feel alienated & fill with hate.
Second we can campaign, make headlines, hash tags whatever. It doesn't change anything. The only way to change society is how you raise your children & the core values you instill in them.

 

[rangersblues]

I want to be respectful & respond but our perspectives are so different. We'll just keep going down rabbit holes.
So I'll leave this thread on this note.
For one, your example doesn't matter. For everyone person who changes for the good, many more are recruited into hate groups or feel alienated & fill with hate.
Second we can campaign, make headlines, hash tags whatever. It doesn't change anything. The only way to change society is how you raise your children & the core values you instill in them.

I think those kids in Florida that are taking on the NRA would beg to differ. Same with Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[Mach85]

I want to be respectful & respond but our perspectives are so different. We'll just keep going down rabbit holes.
So I'll leave this thread on this note.
For one, your example doesn't matter. For everyone person who changes for the good, many more are recruited into hate groups or feel alienated & fill with hate.
Second we can campaign, make headlines, hash tags whatever. It doesn't change anything. The only way to change society is how you raise your children & the core values you instill in them.

It's perfectly ok to have differing opinions, so I hope you're not taking our disagreement as persecution. My interpretation of this thread is to have a discussion about racism and what we can do about it, and that's going to involve some disagreement, so I'm all good with that. So while I'm strong in my convictions, I'm not intending anything I say to be disrespectful to you, as I do respect your autonomy to your own beliefs and you as an independent thinker and person in general. Context can be hard when discussing things over text, especially with sensitive topics, so I wanted to make it explicitly known that I'm not coming at this discussion from a place of aggression.

But I do strongly feel that discounting things based on one's personal opinion, that is in the absence of evidence, such as "that's the just the way it is" or saying things like "your example doesn't matter..." is not conducive to a productive discussion. If your point is as strong as you say it is, you should be able to back it up, rather than just "it is this way because I say it is this way." You said that people who are ingrained with hate can never change, and I proved that to be false. Now you're saying that it doesn't matter if one person changes because there will always be someone else who will be racist to take their place. That's moving the goalposts and a completely different argument. I would again invoke the crime comparison: if we can't stop all murders, should we just stop trying to stop any of them? It's worth it if we just stop some of them, because murders are horrible. Similarly, it's worth it if we convert some racists, because one less Givani Smith, one less Seb, who has to go through what those men went through, is worth it.

 

[bobber]

This is a quote by Paul Carson VP Hockey Canada from an article on racism in hockey:
As the game becomes more and more diverse in terms of ethnic backgrounds coming to the sport of hockey, [it's] no different than coming into the school system that there needs to be an understanding of a broader range of acceptance. There's no question that's an important teaching point in society and in terms of sport," he said.
"It starts with parents and the role the parent plays in encouraging their child to play a fair and positive game. Then it goes to the coach, and the coach is responsible for that team environment."
Back on the Peguis First Nation, Tyler Woodhouse agrees.
"Nobody is born racist," he said. "It starts at home and it could be prevented from happening."
Also reading a quote from Aboriginal author Don Marks who wrote two books on this subject. He says the only way to change the issue of racism is to change society. Then goes on to say hockey in Canada is society.
The greater percentage of the population in Canada are decent hard working people that have morals and go to games and never utter a word even when their team is losing.
We can all be disgusted by this issue but aboriginal players in this article that play pro say it happens to them to this day. Hard to change.

 

[youngblood10]

It's perfectly ok to have differing opinions, so I hope you're not taking our disagreement as persecution. My interpretation of this thread is to have a discussion about racism and what we can do about it, and that's going to involve some disagreement, so I'm all good with that. So while I'm strong in my convictions, I'm not intending anything I say to be disrespectful to you, as I do respect your autonomy to your own beliefs and you as an independent thinker and person in general. Context can be hard when discussing things over text, especially with sensitive topics, so I wanted to make it explicitly known that I'm not coming at this discussion from a place of aggression.

But I do strongly feel that discounting things based on one's personal opinion, that is in the absence of evidence, such as "that's the just the way it is" or saying things like "your example doesn't matter..." is not conducive to a productive discussion. If your point is as strong as you say it is, you should be able to back it up, rather than just "it is this way because I say it is this way." You said that people who are ingrained with hate can never change, and I proved that to be false. Now you're saying that it doesn't matter if one person changes because there will always be someone else who will be racist to take their place. That's moving the goalposts and a completely different argument. I would again invoke the crime comparison: if we can't stop all murders, should we just stop trying to stop any of them? It's worth it if we just stop some of them, because murders are horrible. Similarly, it's worth it if we convert some racists, because one less Givani Smith, one less Seb, who has to go through what those men went through, is worth it.

No offence taken on my part. All good Mach85.

 

[youngblood10]

I think those kids in Florida that are taking on the NRA would beg to differ. Same with Martin Luther King Jr.

Activism is great & creates awareness but it doesn't create change. That starts at home on any issue. This is getting off topic. But I felt I should clarify.

 

[RoyalCitySlicker]

I don't understand how you think change comes about? I mean you say it starts at home....let's think about that critically for a moment.

If my father raises me to believe in prejudice, you are submitting that I then cannot have my views changed? If awareness and activism don't affect change, how would I then have my mind changed on what I was raised to believe in regards to prejudice?

And if that's the case, how would I ever instill something different into my children if my mind cannot be changed by awareness/activism?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but I feel like your stance doesn't make any sense?

Change can come from anywhere, at any time. It starts with being open minded....it continues with awareness.....activism furthers the cause.

To think that a person's mind cannot be changed through thoughtful and meaningful dialogue is a scary proposition for me. It also flies in the face of history.

 

[youngblood10]

I don't understand how you think change comes about? I mean you say it starts at home....let's think about that critically for a moment.

If my father raises me to believe in prejudice, you are submitting that I then cannot have my views changed? If awareness and activism don't affect change, how would I then have my mind changed on what I was raised to believe in regards to prejudice?

And if that's the case, how would I ever instill something different into my children if my mind cannot be changed by awareness/activism?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but I feel like your stance doesn't make any sense?

Change can come from anywhere, at any time. It starts with being open minded....it continues with awareness.....activism furthers the cause.

To think that a person's mind cannot be changed through thoughtful and meaningful dialogue is a scary proposition for me. It also flies in the face of history.

Look at it from another angle.
Isis is very dedicated to their cause & beliefs. They are willing to die for them, kill for them. They have social media, Billions of dollars behind them.
I'm going to guess even with all that they are not changing your views or beliefs to their's.
The reason is you have a different value system. Same applies here.

I'm not saying activism isn't good or a part of it. But without conncting to the core values of the masses. It doesn't progress.

 

[bobber]

Look at it from another angle.
Isis is very dedicated to their cause & beliefs. They are willing to die for them, kill for them. They have social media, Billions of dollars behind them.
I'm going to guess even with all that they are not changing your views or beliefs to their's.
The reason is you have a different value system. Same applies here.

I'm not saying activism isn't good or a part of it. But without conncting to the core values of the masses. It doesn't progress.

I think it's great we are all having this conversation but we are getting away from the original point of the thread that being racism in hockey don't you think.

 

[youngblood10]

I think it's great we are all having this conversation but we are getting away from the original point of the thread that being racism in hockey don't you think.

100%

 

[Mach85]

Look at it from another angle.
Isis is very dedicated to their cause & beliefs. They are willing to die for them, kill for them. They have social media, Billions of dollars behind them.
I'm going to guess even with all that they are not changing your views or beliefs to their's.
The reason is you have a different value system. Same applies here.

I'm not saying activism isn't good or a part of it. But without conncting to the core values of the masses. It doesn't progress.

I don't think ISIS extremists are a fair representation of the average racist at a hockey game.

 

[RayzorIsDull]

Look at it from another angle.
Isis is very dedicated to their cause & beliefs. They are willing to die for them, kill for them. They have social media, Billions of dollars behind them.
I'm going to guess even with all that they are not changing your views or beliefs to their's.
The reason is you have a different value system. Same applies here.

I'm not saying activism isn't good or a part of it. But without conncting to the core values of the masses. It doesn't progress.

This is a terrific post.

 

[bobber]

This is a terrific post.

Good post but nothing to do with hockey racism.

 

[RoyalCitySlicker]

Look at it from another angle.
Isis is very dedicated to their cause & beliefs. They are willing to die for them, kill for them. They have social media, Billions of dollars behind them.
I'm going to guess even with all that they are not changing your views or beliefs to their's.
The reason is you have a different value system. Same applies here.

I'm not saying activism isn't good or a part of it. But without conncting to the core values of the masses. It doesn't progress.

I don't agree with your opinion or that the example you used is at all relevant.

That said, I agree the discussion has morphed from it's original purpose so I'll not address this any further.

Cheers.

 

[ScoresFromCentre]

Honestly, it's the more casual racism of Fischhaber's "suggesting less than 1% of the Soo's fanbase is racist is a bigger problem than racism in hockey" argument that bothers me more than Storm Surge's incoherent post. Everyone can see that that post is racist (except the mods, apparently). But Fischhaber's racism is the kind of insidious, systemic racism that we need to call out every damn time.

There's just no cause for any of the "yeah, but"s or the whataboutism. A few vague suggestions that some Soo players were racist is nothing. No one's career is getting destroyed. The movement to get this discussion out of the Soo topic because they wanted to focus on hockey is a huge part of the problem. As long as racism persists, people of colour can't just focus on hockey. That's the point.

I think what a lot of people are failing to understand is that attacks don't have to be explicitly racist to be racist. If an attack is racially motivated, that's enough. When Smith takes twice the abuse online from fans or draws half the penalties of a player with a similar playing style, it's entirely possible (and I would venture probable) that that's racism. And when you advance specious arguments in defense of this point, or you retreat to nose-thumbing cries of "you can't prove it," you're helping propagate the racism.

Here's a tip: if someone suggests your behaviour is racist, try to fight the reaction to defend yourself. Consider their words and reflect on your actions. No one is doing this to score "points," or embarrass you, or prove that racism exists. They're doing this so that we can all learn and grow and be better people and citizens. It's not easy work, but it's worth it.

 

[BeliveauFan4ever]

Honestly, it's the more casual racism of Fischhaber's "suggesting less than 1% of the Soo's fanbase is racist is a bigger problem than racism in hockey" argument that bothers me more than Storm Surge's incoherent post. Everyone can see that that post is racist (except the mods, apparently). But Fischhaber's racism is the kind of insidious, systemic racism that we need to call out every damn time.

There's just no cause for any of the "yeah, but"s or the whataboutism. A few vague suggestions that some Soo players were racist is nothing. No one's career is getting destroyed. The movement to get this discussion out of the Soo topic because they wanted to focus on hockey is a huge part of the problem. As long as racism persists, people of colour can't just focus on hockey. That's the point.

I think what a lot of people are failing to understand is that attacks don't have to be explicitly racist to be racist. If an attack is racially motivated, that's enough. When Smith takes twice the abuse online from fans or draws half the penalties of a player with a similar playing style, it's entirely possible (and I would venture probable) that that's racism. And when you advance specious arguments in defense of this point, or you retreat to nose-thumbing cries of "you can't prove it," you're helping propagate the racism.

Here's a tip: if someone suggests your behaviour is racist, try to fight the reaction to defend yourself. Consider their words and reflect on your actions. No one is doing this to score "points," or embarrass you, or prove that racism exists. They're doing this so that we can all learn and grow and be better people and citizens. It's not easy work, but it's worth it.

Racism covers a broad spectrum of the public, like, the entire spectrum.

It shouldn't be buried in any one team's thread, as it exists in every single corner of the OHL.

Moving the topic to its own thread was exactly the right move and the number of quality responses generated by this very thread bears this out.

 

[ScoresFromCentre]

Racism covers a broad spectrum of the public, like, the entire spectrum.

It shouldn't be buried in any one team's thread, as it exists in every single corner of the OHL.

Moving the topic to its own thread was exactly the right move and the number of quality responses generated by this very thread bears this out.

No disagreement here. But the sentiment that the discussion was getting in the way of the discussion of the Greyhounds' playoff run was disgusting.

 

[BeliveauFan4ever]

No disagreement here. But the sentiment that the discussion was getting in the way of the discussion of the Greyhounds' playoff run was disgusting.

It's a fact. People at the various boards are here to talk hockey as it pertains to their team.

There's a capacity at HF to facilitate discussions on broader topics and that should be employed, and was.

Nothing "disgusting" about it.

 

[bobber]

Honestly, it's the more casual racism of Fischhaber's "suggesting less than 1% of the Soo's fanbase is racist is a bigger problem than racism in hockey" argument that bothers me more than Storm Surge's incoherent post. Everyone can see that that post is racist (except the mods, apparently). But Fischhaber's racism is the kind of insidious, systemic racism that we need to call out every damn time.

There's just no cause for any of the "yeah, but"s or the whataboutism. A few vague suggestions that some Soo players were racist is nothing. No one's career is getting destroyed. The movement to get this discussion out of the Soo topic because they wanted to focus on hockey is a huge part of the problem. As long as racism persists, people of colour can't just focus on hockey. That's the point.

I think what a lot of people are failing to understand is that attacks don't have to be explicitly racist to be racist. If an attack is racially motivated, that's enough. When Smith takes twice the abuse online from fans or draws half the penalties of a player with a similar playing style, it's entirely possible (and I would venture probable) that that's racism. And when you advance specious arguments in defense of this point, or you retreat to nose-thumbing cries of "you can't prove it," you're helping propagate the racism.

Here's a tip: if someone suggests your behaviour is racist, try to fight the reaction to defend yourself. Consider their words and reflect on your actions. No one is doing this to score "points," or embarrass you, or prove that racism exists. They're doing this so that we can all learn and grow and be better people and citizens. It's not easy work, but it's worth it.

I think one point of contention that really sticks out like a sore thumb in this discussion is the fact that a player of colour had to have police protection in the Soo barn. This is an issue that has not happened in recent history in the OHL.
What was said by certain fans that he had to have such protection? Smith is a hockey player. There was no crime committed yet he was he treated like a common criminal by some people? I really can't imagine how this young man felt in this situation. Probably fear. Can you imagine having that fear hanging over you as you proceed with your pro career thinking it could raise it's ugly head again in another venue? As said many times these incidents continue to happen in hockey at all levels. It is not going to go away any time soon but has to be called out in every hockey arena when it happens. There is no defending racism no matter what form it takes.

 

[rangersblues]

I think one point of contention that really sticks out like a sore thumb in this discussion is the fact that a player of colour had to have police protection in the Soo barn. This is an issue that has not happened in recent history in the OHL.
What was said by certain fans that he had to have such protection? Smith is a hockey player. There was no crime committed yet he was he treated like a common criminal by some people? I really can't imagine how this young man felt in this situation. Probably fear. Can you imagine having that fear hanging over you as you proceed with your pro career thinking it could raise it's ugly head again in another venue? As said many times these incidents continue to happen in hockey at all levels. It is not going to go away any time soon but has to be called out in every hockey arena when it happens. There is no defending racism no matter what form it takes.

Bobber I was just thinking the exact same thing about the police protection . I hope the investigation is not being swept under the carpet and at the very least a code of conduct is released by the league that says racism in any form is unacceptable and anyone found in violation (player, management or fan) would be barred from participating in the league for a very long time. We aren't going to fix racism with one swipe of the pen but at least we can drive racists back under the rocks they have climbed out from.

 

[rangersblues]

It's a fact. People at the various boards are here to talk hockey as it pertains to their team.

There's a capacity at HF to facilitate discussions on broader topics and that should be employed, and was.

Nothing "disgusting" about it.

I agreed with your post that the discussion did deserve its own topic to carry on. But to say racism did not deserve to be part of the discussion about that playoff series is absurd when you consider the role it played. I don't think anyone is saying anything more than a few Soo fans are racist. Every fan base has them unfortunately. But to deny the problem exists, only adds to the dilemma as witnessed by the tiki March south of the border last year.

 

[BeliveauFan4ever]

Not a hard concept to grasp.

The topic is broad, and broad and important enough to dwarf the games themselves.

That's exactly why a thread dedicated to the topic was the way to go. That's what the topic deserved.

No one is denying the problem exists. Not sure where you're seeing that.

 

[BeliveauFan4ever]

The issue, serious as it is, rightfully has its own thread.
My central point was to have an exclusive thread, and the reasons I outlined were perfectly logical and perfectly clear.
That you're still shouting and spouting and pointing fingers at others isn't a good look, but then, that's what most of your comments surrounding this issue are all about, sadly enough.

As I mentioned to SebJHockey in a PM, I had no idea he was a black man.
He accepted that truth, maybe you can't. Not my problem, or concern.

If you're upset with racism, welcome to the club, but neither you nor anyone else dictates what is fit and proper for discussion on another team's board.
That's a fact you seem to be really, really, struggling with.

 

[staubitz]

(staubitz, don't think I don't see you liking Beliveau's posts, either--you're better than that.)

I think very highly of you and respect your opinion on all matters, hockey as well as more important topics such as racism. However, with all due respect, I will continue to like posts that I agree with even if they don't meet your approval.

I didn't really appreciate Rangers' fans posting on our board accusing our coaches, players, and fans of being racist, based on an article that seemed to consist of unfounded accusations.

I agree that racism has no place in hockey or anywhere in our society. But I don't agree that the Hounds' board was the appropriate location for Rangers' fans (and indeed Hounds' fans, along with fans of any team or league) to host the discussion.

EDIT - not necessary.

 

[ScoresFromCentre]

Your hyper-emotional response has no place when confronted by logic.
The issue, serious as it is, rightfully has its own thread.
My central point was to have an exclusive thread, and the reasons I outlined were perfectly logical and perfectly clear.
That you're still shouting and spouting and pointing fingers at others isn't a good look, but then, that's what most of your comments surrounding this issue are all about, sadly enough.

As I mentioned to SebJHockey in a PM, I had no idea he was a black man.
He accepted that truth, maybe you can't. Not my problem, or concern.

If you're upset with racism, welcome to the club, but neither you nor anyone else dictates what is fit and proper for discussion on another team's board.
That's a fact you seem to be really, really, struggling with.

With all due respect, that's not what you said in the Greyhounds topic.

Your lack of circumspection does you little credit. All best in your future endeavours.

I think very highly of you and respect your opinion on all matters, hockey as well as more important topics such as racism. However, with all due respect, I will continue to like posts that I agree with even if they don't meet your approval.

I didn't really appreciate Rangers' fans posting on our board accusing our coaches, players, and fans of being racist, based on an article that seemed to consist of unfounded accusations.

I agree that racism has no place in hockey or anywhere in our society. But I don't agree that the Hounds' board was the appropriate location for Rangers' fans (and indeed Hounds' fans, along with fans of any team or league) to host the discussion.

I'm a fan of yours too, staubitz. Likewise, all the best going forward. Of course you're free to like what you will, just as I am to call you out on it.

EDIT: You're worth responding to, so I'll leave this final note here. Obviously I don't like calling people out. I'd love to talk hockey, not racism. I'd love to see the Greyhounds and the Soo win a championship. But I can't. It's 2018 and racism is still a problem. What happened to Smith is not OK. And for us to say "they should go after those idiots on social media" doesn't cut it. That's the easy way out that doesn't take responsibility for our actions.

It sucks being called out for racism. I got called out for homophobia by a friend a few weeks ago and I was furious. How dare she say that about me! That wasn't my point at all! I'm a smart, thoughtful, generous person, and I've never treated an LGBTQ person disrespectfully, at least as far as I can recall.

That wasn't the point. The point was that what I said didn't show empathy towards a group of people that have had a pretty shitty time. The point is that I, as a cisgendered white man, need to better educate myself about what (in this case) trans people experience every day. The fact that I'm generally a good person is irrelevant.

When we stand up and say "Racism is a problem, but I'd rather discuss hockey here," or "Racism is a problem, but most Soo fans aren't racist," we miss the point. It's fair to think those things. (Goodness knows I did.) But we have to swallow our pride, and our discomfort, and deal with this stuff. We can't change other people (look how readily people here dismissed my well-reasoned arguments as hysterics--a classic logical fallacy). But we can damn well change ourselves.

I started volunteering at a local pro-diversity charity, but I'm sure there are similar groups in Sault Ste. Marie, Sarnia, and all across Ontario, Michigan, and Pennsylvania that we OHL fans can work with. I challenge others to do the same, whatever you think of me, or Dave Branch, or Givani Smith, or whoever. Because we all deserve better.

Good luck and godspeed.