Race for the Rocket Richard 2021 - Part II

[harvestglen]

Matthews was born and raised in the states, American trained. He’s the real first American to win it, if he does, IMO.

What about Keith Tkachuk?

 

[NoName]

Wasn't Brett Hull born in Canada? And his father is Bobby Hull. He played for team America later in his career and went to college hockey in the states, but I'm not sure if he's really considered more American than Canadian?

Dual nationality and played internationally for the US, so I would guess he counts for “American” players in the record books. Not “American born” I suppose, since he was born in Ontario.

 

[Dust]

Current all time goals/game standings for centers:

1. Lemieux: .754
2. Gretzky: .610
3. Matthews: .597
4. Esposito: .559
5. Dionne: .542

Because he was such a beast right off the hop, he's really high up on the goals scoring list. Injuries and covid shutdowns hurting his overall totals more than anything long term.

The question is whether or not he can maintain his prime as a goal scorer a la Ovi and stay healthy but he certainly seems to have the tools and goal scoring IQ to keep this up for a very long time. Not a guy that relies on insane speed/agility. He's always gonna have that shot.

These are always interesting tidbits. They do favor the younger guys though, as just about everyone's play declines in the latter half of their career. Just like McDavid and his points per game will likely decline a little bit at some point just like Crosby.

 

[authentic]

These are always interesting tidbits. They do favor the younger guys though, as just about everyone's play declines in the latter half of their career. Just like McDavid and his points per game will likely decline a little bit at some point just like Crosby.

This is true but think of the era those guys played in, Matthews career goals per game will eventually go down but then adjust for era and I won't be surprised to see him stay around that 3rd spot.

 

[Zybalto]

These are always interesting tidbits. They do favor the younger guys though, as just about everyone's play declines in the latter half of their career. Just like McDavid and his points per game will likely decline a little bit at some point just like Crosby.

Yup, although Lemieux was just a beast almost his whole career. Came back at 35 years old after a 3-year retirement and put up 35 goals in 43 games? Jeez.

1. Lemieux: .754
2. Gretzky: .610
3. Matthews: .597
4. Esposito: .559
5. Dionne: .542
6. LaFontaine: .541
7. Stamkos: .522
8. Stewart: .498
9. Morentz: .493
10: Lindros: .489

Only 7 centers above .5 a game. Let's see if Stammer can keep above it. (although is he more a winger now?)

 

[DopeyFish]

Yup, although Lemieux was just a beast almost his whole career. Came back at 35 years old after a 3-year retirement and put up 35 goals in 43 games? Jeez.

1. Lemieux: .754
2. Gretzky: .610
3. Matthews: .597
4. Esposito: .559
5. Dionne: .542
6. LaFontaine: .541
7. Stamkos: .522
8. Stewart: .498
9. Morentz: .493
10: Lindros: .489

Only 7 centers above .5 a game. Let's see if Stammer can keep above it. (although is he more a winger now?)

Matthews is more like a Lemieux type, too. He's a very efficient player... a lot of the times he's scoring he's moving slow or standing still. Even when on a rush he's usually not scoring because of his speed... largely because he isn't very fast though he can take people by surprise with some of his bursts.

It bodes very well for his future scoring ability.

 

[Snipes45]

McDavid is ridiculous, but he's not a good enough goal scorer that he can just rip off hat tricks whenever he wants. Could he? Of course, any of the top players could end up finishing the season with a couple hat tricks, but it's not like he can pull it off just because he's determined to do it. Prime Ovechkin was perhaps the best at being truly unstoppable when he was determined, but he also had the luxury of cherry picking. McDavid plays far deeper in his own end than Ovi did/does.

Yeah, that's true. He only has 10 hat tricks in his career compared to Matthews who has 3 in his career..

Matthews has this won though

 

[Snipes45]

McDavid is a flat out better overall player than Ovechkin ever was, but Ovechkin was easily the better goal scorer. If McDavid wanted to he could score more goals (than he does currently, not more than Ovechkin), but his overall assist and point totals would go down. The way he plays utilizes his skillset perfectly, which goes without saying considering he's not only the most skilled but also the smartest player in the world.

That's the funny thing with McDavid. He was on pace this year for 50sh. He is more of a playmaker, but has a lethal shot. He just makes plays more. That's how he will always be. A 40 goal year is easy for McDavid to hit, but he will always have a ton of assists on top of that. He might win a rocket or two when things go more his way or he starts passing less, but that isn't his game.

 

[Snipes45]

Matthews is more like a Lemieux type, too. He's a very efficient player... a lot of the times he's scoring he's moving slow or standing still. Even when on a rush he's usually not scoring because of his speed... largely because he isn't very fast though he can take people by surprise with some of his bursts.

It bodes very well for his future scoring ability.

He is very very good at getting into lanes and he doesn't need a lot of time either with his lethal shot. I don't see him ever losing that for a loooong time, unless he injures his wrist a lot.

 

[shaner82]

Yeah, that's true. He only has 10 hat tricks in his career compared to Matthews who has 3 in his career..

Matthews has this won though

Yeah, McDavid can score, I don't deny that at all, but if you read the post I responded to, it's not like he can just rip off a few hattricks just because he wants to. Nobody can do that. It doesn't matter what he's chasing, he can't just suddenly decide to score 3 goals per game several games in a row

 

[DopeyFish]

He is very very good at getting into lanes and he doesn't need a lot of time either with his lethal shot. I don't see him ever losing that for a loooong time, unless he injures his wrist a lot.

and even then i don't think he relies on stick whip like some other players do. there is some but it's not like insane like kessel. most of the terror comes from him shifting the position on the ice before his release that it completely changes the angle of the shot or how he just sneaks around the zone like a ninja. and the way he holds the stick... he basically never moves his hands unless he's stickhandling in front of himself... so he's always in resting position. so even with messed up wrists he'd still be dangerous even though he'd have more difficulty aiming or getting peak velocity, he'd still likely be a 30G scorer the way he plays.

 

[Holymakinaw]

I see McDavid went scoreless last night. Pathetic.

 

[HarryLime]

Honestly after years of hating the Oilers and being mad they got a million draft picks, including McDavid and Drai I think I'm rdy to just enjoy them all. It's a waste to look at them as rivals. All 3 of those guys are top 5 players imo. I don't care about advanced stats. McDavid, Mack, Drai, Matthews are all top 5 for me. Must watch hockey. The 5th guy is up for debate.

 

[Cotton]

Except that hes half Mexican.

In the same way Brady and Matthew Tkachuk are half Canadian, or what about Jakob Cychrun, who is a born and raised Floridian (and proud of it) with two Canadian parents - who has said he feels like a Canadian and decided to represent them internationally.. Explain that one.

Either way, it’s an apples to oranges comparison to Brett Hull, who literally spent something like 20 of his first 22 years of life in Canada and switched sides only when he was snubbed by Hockey Canada. Which is why people tend to state “American born” to differentiate from somebody like Hull.

 

[Cotton]

What about Keith Tkachuk?

There was no award when he led the league in goals.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

In the same way Brady and Matthew Tkachuk are half Canadian, or what about Jakob Cychrun, who is a born and raised Floridian (and proud of it) with two Canadian parents - who has said he feels like a Canadian and decided to represent them internationally.. Explain that one.

Either way, it’s an apples to oranges comparison to Brett Hull, who literally spent something like 20 of his first 22 years of life in Canada and switched sides only when he was snubbed by Hockey Canada. Which is why people tend to state “American born” to differentiate from somebody like Hull.

You missed the point. He's not "Pure 'Merican", hes half mexican and very proud of it.

He is american born, yes but you cant just throw away his Mexican culture and heritage for an argument. Thats insulting.

 

[harvestglen]

There was no award when he led the league in goals.

No arguments there. It's just that this quote stemmed directly from a discussion of whether or not Hull's citizenship counted and Matthews by contrast being raised and trained there. If we want to discount all goals leaders pre-Rocket that's fine, but then Hull's status is irrelevant regardless.

 

[CN8]

Honestly after years of hating the Oilers and being mad they got a million draft picks, including McDavid and Drai I think I'm rdy to just enjoy them all. It's a waste to look at them as rivals. All 3 of those guys are top 5 players imo. I don't care about advanced stats. McDavid, Mack, Drai, Matthews are all top 5 for me. Must watch hockey. The 5th guy is up for debate.

Same here
I’ll admit I first cheered against Matthews then I realized it’s ridiculous. Praising him takes nothing away from McDavid. The guy is a scoring machine and I’m more impressed that it’s just a goal every single night

 

[Cotton]

You missed the point. He's not "Pure 'Merican", hes half mexican and very proud of it.

He is american born, yes but you cant just throw away his Mexican culture and heritage for an argument. Thats insulting.

Who is throwing away his Mexican culture and heritage? Does having a Mother born in Mexico and him being half Latino makes him less American to you? Before you start talking about insulting you should think about what you’re actually saying and the assumptions you’re making.

The actual point was to differentiate from Brett Hull - and the comment was meant as in he is “pure” as in US born, raised and trained - again, to contrast Hull.

 

[Cotton]

No arguments there. It's just that this quote stemmed directly from a discussion of whether or not Hull's citizenship counted and Matthews by contrast being raised and trained there. If we want to discount all goals leaders pre-Rocket that's fine, but then Hull's status is irrelevant regardless.

My original post was “If Matthews wins the Rocket Richard he will be the first American to have done so.

I didn’t bring up Hull or Tkachuk.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

He is a US citizen and when he was cut from Canada’s World JR team he only ever played for the states on the world stage. Born in Canada but raised in the States. He is considered to be an American by most people.

In a sports context, if someone has dual citizenship, I think all that matters is where they were raised and most importantly, where they were developed as an athlete. If Hull was developed in the 'States, then I say he's an American from a sports point of view.

Edit: Another poster just said he was trained and developed in Canada so that would change mind mind if true. Dunno myself.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

In the same way Brady and Matthew Tkachuk are half Canadian, or what about Jakob Cychrun, who is a born and raised Floridian (and proud of it) with two Canadian parents - who has said he feels like a Canadian and decided to represent them internationally.. Explain that one.

Either way, it’s an apples to oranges comparison to Brett Hull, who literally spent something like 20 of his first 22 years of life in Canada and switched sides only when he was snubbed by Hockey Canada. Which is why people tend to state “American born” to differentiate from somebody like Hull.

These discussions always make me think of Steve Nash. Born in South Africa, raised and developed (mostly) as an athlete in Canada but clearly honed as an athlete in the NCAA system. Who gets to claim him?

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Same here
I’ll admit I first cheered against Matthews then I realized it’s ridiculous. Praising him takes nothing away from McDavid. The guy is a scoring machine and I’m more impressed that it’s just a goal every single night

I just like hockey. Love 'em all.

 

[harvestglen]

My original post was “If Matthews wins the Rocket Richard he will be the first American to have done so.

I didn’t bring up Hull or Tkachuk.

Right, and I should specify I don't take issue with the original point. It's just the conversation ended up shifting into discussion about Hull and whether or not his status counts, and I guess I'm saying it doesn't really matter if he does because if we're opening the door to leaders prior to '99, another inarguable American fits the bill anyway.

I guess then we can agree that Matthews should he win would be the first US-born player to win the award, given it didn't exist prior to a certain year, and at the same time he wouldn't be the first with the achievement regardless of how one deals with Hull.

 

[sxvnert]

Same here
I’ll admit I first cheered against Matthews then I realized it’s ridiculous. Praising him takes nothing away from McDavid. The guy is a scoring machine and I’m more impressed that it’s just a goal every single night

Even with the 8 goal cushion I'm still feeling uneasy about calling it a lock for Matthews.
Too many Oilers-Canucks games still left.