World Cup: R16: France vs. Argentina. 6/30/2018

[S E P H]

He was a top 2 player in the world this season, and the only one even debatable is Mo Salah.

Not sure I agree. If you put this season’s Salah, Ronaldo, or Harry Kane on Barca and remove Messi they still win La Liga and CL easily.

 

[Firsov99]

When your goalkeeper, central defence, central midfield and tactics are all a shambles they shouldn't. Particularly when you were playing a superior team in the first place.

Otherwise you've missed the fundamental way the sport works.

I see this as an excuse. There's an old Russian saying that refers to how blame is shifted from a person who is supposed to be responsible for something: "The Tzar is good, but the boyars (the aristocracy) are bad." Leaders should take responsibility and not shift the blame.

 

[Firsov99]

So says the guy who actually posted that Messi "doesn't rise to the occasion." Absolutely clueless post that's even worse than SEPH level.

Wonderful. All the best to you.

 

[KJS14]

Not sure I agree. If you put this season’s Salah, Ronaldo, or Harry Kane on Barca and remove Messi they still win La Liga and CL easily.

Ronaldo was awful in La Liga for half the season. His CL performance was impressive, but Messi had the better season. Harry Kane isn't even close tbh.

 

[Stray Wasp]

I see this as an excuse. There's an old Russian saying that refers to how blame is shifted from a person who is supposed to be responsible for something: "The Tzar is good, but the boyars (the aristocracy) are bad." Leaders should take responsibility and not shift the blame.

But the idea that a leader can succeed without gifted subordinates is usually utter nonsense.

Indeed, many a fine leader has undone themselves by believing the flatterers who tell them they can do everything alone and dispose of the talented lieutenants who helped them reach the peak of their powers.

The ability to delegate to the correct people is usually considered a measure of leadership skills.

 

[Havre]

I think it is fair to criticize Messi for his WC, but I don’t understand why it has to become a discussion about his overall “greatness” every single time/thread.

No excuse running less than 8km in a game unless you are a goalkeeper and maybe a defender standing in your own penalty box for a game defending. Messi did it at least twice in this WC.

Didn’t mind his game today though. One brilliant assist. The other was lucky, but came as a result of him involving himself. Not at his best - far from it, but he wasn’t the problem.

 

[S E P H]

I think it is fair to criticize Messi for his WC, but I don’t understand why it has to become a discussion about his overall “greatness” every single time/thread.

No excuse running less than 8km in a game unless you are a goalkeeper and maybe a defender standing in your own penalty box for a game defending. Messi did it at least twice in this WC.

Didn’t mind his game today though. One brilliant assist. The other was lucky, but came as a result of him involving himself. Not at his best - far from it, but he wasn’t the problem.

It absolutely is his fault because if he put in the work ethic during the group stage they wouldn’t have matched up with France. Losing second in the group was a pretty big mistake and today it showed.

 

[Firsov99]

I agree with you. But I don't think anything you say backs up the implication of your earlier post- that had Messi been more charismatic, and a greater leader, that on its own would have driven Argentina to ultimate victory in a World Cup.

One of the points often overlooked about 1986 is that the draw opened up for Argentina so they didn't at any stage have to play a team remotely as good as the one Messi faced in 2014 final. They beat Uruguay, England and Belgium- none of which was an elite outfit. Then in the final they played an average West Germany that had played the whole tournament without Bernd Schuster, and lacked a fully-fit Rummenigge. (Franz Beckenbauer actually broke out laughing in a press conference when he recalled that he'd somehow managed to reach the final with what he'd had at his disposal).

This is just my opinion. I truly think that Argentina could have won the World Cup (not this one, but at least the one in 2014), had Messi being more charismatic and had leaderships qualities. By talent alone Messi and Ronaldo (the Brazilian one) are the most talented soccer players ever in my opinion.

England and Belgium of 1986 were very, very good teams. Especially Belgium that dispatched an absolutely loaded USSR team and Spain.

 

[Stray Wasp]

This is just my opinion. I truly think that Argentina could have won the World Cup (not this one, but at least the one in 2014), had Messi being more charismatic and had leaderships qualities. By talent alone Messi and Ronaldo (the Brazilian one) are the most talented soccer players ever in my opinion.

England and Belgium of 1986 were very, very good teams. Especially Belgium that dispatched an absolutely loaded USSR team and Spain.

England in 1986 were not a very good team. The midfield and strike partnership were excellent, and Shilton was a great keeper. But the back four was not only average at best, but ill-suited to playing in the heat and altitude of Mexico.

I think that Belgium team was underrated, but still not elite.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Messi as a leader is a bad fit on Argentina. You know those guys admire him and want to do well for him, but he's not come up through Argentinian football, he doesn't have the mentality 99% of the other Argentinian players seem to have and he has a personality that is more pondering and introverted. When things went downhill quickly vs Croatia, he was doing his usual walk around with head down act. I'm not saying every leader needs to be a bit of a dick, but I have a firm suspicion that to lead the Argentinian team you need to be a bit of a dick.

 

[Savi]

Belgium wasn't "very, very good" either. It was a decent, experienced squad but only 2 played abroad and both were well into their 30's (JM Pfaff at Bayern, Eric Gerets at PSV) and the top prospect (Enzo Scifo) was still a kid. That win over the Soviets was a HUGE upset.

 

[Havre]

It absolutely is his fault because if he put in the work ethic during the group stage they wouldn’t have matched up with France. Losing second in the group was a pretty big mistake and today it showed.

That is too easy of course. Argentina do not by default beat Croatia just because Messi puts in a better effort.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

That said, no shame in losing to France who may have the best roster in this competition and as I said during the group stage look like the team most likely to win it due to their overall solidity coupled with the talent to provide exceptional moments.

 

[Havre]

The depth France got is ridiculous. No other team is close.

Depth doesn’t necessarily win you a tournament though.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Not sure I agree. If you put this season’s Salah, Ronaldo, or Harry Kane on Barca and remove Messi they still win La Liga and CL easily.

Good one

 

[Spring in Fialta]

No, it isn't, because you were proven wrong. Letdown lol.

As for skin of their teeth please. Argentina had no business being in this game. They scored a freak goal and a defelection lucky goal.
Fact is they were never in control and never created anything.
France certainly didn't have a perfect game and I'm still not convinced by plenty of things. But the 4-3 score doesn't reflect the match. France should have lead at halftime and Argentina never deserved to score 3 goals.
Then again, they're not a great team and France should progress round per round.

But you can take your "consistent letdown" to the loo where that comment belongs.

No, it isn't, because you were proven wrong. Letdown lol.

As for skin of their teeth please. Argentina had no business being in this game. They scored a freak goal and a defelection lucky goal.
Fact is they were never in control and never created anything.
France certainly didn't have a perfect game and I'm still not convinced by plenty of things. But the 4-3 score doesn't reflect the match. France should have lead at halftime and Argentina never deserved to score 3 goals.
Then again, they're not a great team and France should progress round per round.

But you can take your "consistent letdown" to the loo where that comment belongs.

Argentina took it to the France quite a few times during the match. France deserved to win, but the 4-3 score isn't some odd score considering the play on the pitch. And lol at the idea that the 2nd Argentina goal was a fluke. Again, if France can win it all - they certainly have the talent to - then good on them, but they've let fans down a lot since 2006 (and 2002 lol) considering their consistent level of natural talent and only bitterness appears to drive you here. If not, why only wait until the end of the game to take umbrage with my post?

 

[c9777666]

Great, now we get to see ANOTHER game of Uruguay and their SAVE US SUAREZ strategy.

Cannot stand this guy.

 

[c9777666]

When Suarez wins, soccer loses.

I hope France wins like 6-0

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

Not sure I agree. If you put this season’s Salah, Ronaldo, or Harry Kane on Barca and remove Messi they still win La Liga and CL easily.

Good lord...

 

[Evilo]

Argentina took it to the France quite a few times during the match. France deserved to win, but the 4-3 score isn't some odd score considering the play on the pitch. And lol at the idea that the 2nd Argentina goal was a fluke. Again, if France can win it all - they certainly have the talent to - then good on them, but they've let fans down a lot since 2006 (and 2002 lol) considering their consistent level of natural talent and only bitterness appears to drive you here. If not, why only wait until the end of the game to take umbrage with my post?

If you can look at the thread, you'll see I commented rarely because I didn't have much internet access.
And I don't feel let down to have won 2 tournaments and been to 2 finals in the last 10 international tournaments. Only one bitter (if you understand the word that is) is you really.
Yes, Argentinas second goal is a total fluke. Lucky deflection. Di Maria wouldn't be able to strike another one like this in 100 attempts.
So yes, Argentina scoring those two goals is complete luck.

Can't remember Argentina having a single other good chance.

 

[John Pedro]

Messi as a leader is a bad fit on Argentina. You know those guys admire him and want to do well for him, but he's not come up through Argentinian football, he doesn't have the mentality 99% of the other Argentinian players seem to have and he has a personality that is more pondering and introverted. When things went downhill quickly vs Croatia, he was doing his usual walk around with head down act. I'm not saying every leader needs to be a bit of a dick, but I have a firm suspicion that to lead the Argentinian team you need to be a bit of a dick.

Icardi as their captain would be hilarious.

 

[JaymzB]

I'm a Dutch fan, so take this for what its worth. But am I crazy to think that Mbappe is right now where Kluivert was in 95/96? An unbeliveable physical talent, who can take over games. But he still needs to prove it isn't just physical ability that makes him so good? Of course Kluivert never took that next step.

Or has Mbappe already passed that? I'm not sure yet.

 

[S E P H]

Wrong thread*

 

[JaymzB]

I also want to say at this point Mbappe is my favourite non-Dutch player in the world. He is such a electric player to watch. I just want to know if my thinking makes sense.

 

[Suiteness]

.

Can't remember Argentina having a single other good chance.

Messi on his right foot.