World Cup: R16: France vs. Argentina. 6/30/2018

[Firsov99]

Different time....different circumstances...different teams...

Obviously. But how could do we make comparisons then? Soccer in the 80s was competitive. It's not like we are comparing soccer of the 50s to the 10s of this century.

 

[Stray Wasp]

You are just a Messi homer. Admit it. Messi can't do wrong in your opinion. I hate to break it to you, pal, but Messi, albeit one of the most talented soccer players ever, has charisma of an amoeba and doesn't rise to the occasion, and that's why he has ZERO World Cup trophies.

Does that mean that Germany won in 2014 because they have someone in their team who is very charismatic? If so, who was it? If not, why did they end up as World Champions?

Perhaps we should begin a 'players whose personal charisma inspired their team to win a major international trophy that they otherwise wouldn't have won thread' where we can compile a list of such individuals.

Obviously Ronaldo 2004 version wouldn't be in it. I suppose he only had burgeoning charisma then. But it'd be interesting to learn which Greek had the 100% proof stuff that gave them their edge.

 

[Firsov99]

Maybe skip the 1986 final, where Maradona didn't score but created goals for others.

At least Maradona has scored in the knockout stage, and his goals in the 1/4 and 1/2 were the ONLY goals scored by Argentina.

 

[Firsov99]

First wrong. Second take it in the right thread.

It's up to a moderator to decide where to take it. But thank you for your opinion.

 

[Stray Wasp]

At least Maradona has scored in the knockout stage, and his goals in the 1/4 and 1/2 were the ONLY goals scored by Argentina.

Quite so. But if they hadn't beaten Uruguay 1-0 with a goal from one of his teammates in the round of 16, he never would have reached that far.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

If your take from that game is that Olivier Giroud is bad, your take is bad.

 

[Evilo]

Insane how much a consistent letdown that nation is

I love this.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I love this.

Oh please. It's absolutely true. And lets not pretend like France played some flawless game today. They got by the skin of their teeth against a weak side. If France goes all the way I'll be happy - they're my team at this point - but the comment is justified.

 

[KJS14]

Just saw the extended highlights and it looked to be a great game. Some stunning goals for sure. Please put me down as one that doesn't understand how you could watch this game and come away saying Messi didn't show up.

If your take from that game is that Olivier Giroud is bad, your take is bad.

Giroud is great when surrounded by the right types of players. Mbappe and Griezmann really help to maximize his strengths.

 

[Firsov99]

Quite so. But if they hadn't beaten Uruguay 1-0 with a goal from one of his teammates in the round of 16, he never would have reached that far.

Certainly. It is a team sport after all. But if your teams loses, big players should always take the responsibility.

 

[Evilo]

Oh please. It's absolutely true. And lets not pretend like France played some flawless game today. They got by the skin of their teeth against a weak side. If France goes all the way I'll be happy - they're my team at this point - but the comment is justified.

No, it isn't, because you were proven wrong. Letdown lol.

As for skin of their teeth please. Argentina had no business being in this game. They scored a freak goal and a defelection lucky goal.
Fact is they were never in control and never created anything.
France certainly didn't have a perfect game and I'm still not convinced by plenty of things. But the 4-3 score doesn't reflect the match. France should have lead at halftime and Argentina never deserved to score 3 goals.
Then again, they're not a great team and France should progress round per round.

But you can take your "consistent letdown" to the loo where that comment belongs.

 

[les Habs]

You are just a Messi homer. Admit it. Messi can't do wrong in your opinion. I hate to break it to you, pal, but Messi, albeit one of the most talented soccer players ever, has charisma of an amoeba and doesn't rise to the occasion, and that's why he has ZERO World Cup trophies.

And there you have it folks. Ignorance at its finest. As Evilo was saying about this forum during a World Cup.

 

[Evilo]

Still it's quite symbolic that the current best player in the world was overshadowed by some 19 year old with potential to be the future #1.
Mbappe has better stats and more impact than either Messi or Ronaldo at the same age.

 

[S E P H]

The best player in the world was wearing #10 today, but he definitely wasn’t wearing white....

 

[Stray Wasp]

Certainly. It is a team sport after all. But if your teams loses, big players should always take the responsibility.

When your goalkeeper, central defence, central midfield and tactics are all a shambles they shouldn't. Particularly when you were playing a superior team in the first place.

Otherwise you've missed the fundamental way the sport works.

 

[S E P H]

And there you have it folks. Ignorance at its finest. As Evilo was saying about this forum during a World Cup.

He isn’t entirely wrong though. Messi had a pretty awful season and got overshadowed by Harry Kane and Moh Salah during the season, Ronaldo in the CL, and now an effin 19 year old kid from France in the WC. He’s still the best player in the world, however Ronaldo is in the same realm as him and had a season where he looks slower than usual.

 

[KJS14]

He isn’t entirely wrong though. Messi had a pretty awful season and got overshadowed by Harry Kane and Moh Salah during the season, Ronaldo in the CL, and now an effin 19 year old kid from France in the WC. He’s still the best player in the world, however Ronaldo is in the same realm as him and had a season where he looks slower than usual.

 

[les Habs]

He isn’t entirely wrong though. Messi had a pretty awful season and got overshadowed by Harry Kane and Moh Salah during the season, Ronaldo in the CL, and now an effin 19 year old kid from France in the WC. He’s still the best player in the world, however Ronaldo is in the same realm as him and had a season where he looks slower than usual.

He is wrong in that he said that Messi doesn't rise to the occasion. Of course why I'm wasting my time trying to tell you that when a whole lotta Sephin' goin' on with that really ridiculous "pretty awful season" comment Lord only knows.

 

[S E P H]

Awful is probably an over exaggeration on my part. He had an okay season where other players were better. He definitely wasn’t bad.

 

[Firsov99]

Does that mean that Germany won in 2014 because they have someone in their team who is very charismatic? If so, who was it? If not, why did they end up as World Champions?

Perhaps we should begin a 'players whose personal charisma inspired their team to win a major international trophy that they otherwise wouldn't have won thread' where we can compile a list of such individuals.

Obviously Ronaldo 2004 version wouldn't be in it. I suppose he only had burgeoning charisma then. But it'd be interesting to learn which Greek had the 100% proof stuff that gave them their edge.

With Greece, it's easier to explain. While I think that Zagorakis was a great captain, Otto Rehhagel takes the spoils of the most charismatic character on that team. He could build great teams without much talent, and his players were playing hearts out for him. Although winning Euro is easier than winning the World Cup.

The German 2014 team was stacked at every position and was coached well. Every person was pitching in, so they didn't need someone to score goals like Maradona 1986. But it does't mean that the team didn't have leaders.

I think that while Messi is an immensely talented player, he is not a leader by nature. He should not have accepted captaincy. He might have even performed better with less pressure on him.

 

[les Habs]

Awful is probably an over exaggeration on my part. He had an okay season where other players were better. He definitely wasn’t bad.

 

[Firsov99]

And there you have it folks. Ignorance at its finest. As Evilo was saying about this forum during a World Cup.

I think that it's easier for Messi to go through the eye of a needle, then for you to enter the kingdom of non-ignorance.

 

[KJS14]

Awful is probably an over exaggeration on my part. He had an okay season where other players were better. He definitely wasn’t bad.

He was a top 2 player in the world this season, and the only one even debatable is Mo Salah.

 

[les Habs]

I think that it's easier for Messi to go through the eye of a needle, then for you to enter the kingdom of non-ignorance.

So says the guy who actually posted that Messi "doesn't rise to the occasion." Absolutely clueless post that's even worse than SEPH level.

 

[Stray Wasp]

With Greece, it's easier to explain. While I think that Zagorakis was a great captain, Otto Rehhagel takes the spoils of the most charismatic character on that team. He could build great teams without much talent, and his players were playing hearts out for him. Although winning Euro is easier than winning the World Cup.

The German 2014 team was stacked at every position and was coached well. Every person was pitching in, so they didn't need someone to score goals like Maradona 1986. But it does't mean that the team didn't have leaders.

I think that while Messi is an immensely talented player, he is not a leader by nature. He should not have accepted captaincy. He might have even performed better with less pressure on him.

I agree with you. But I don't think anything you say backs up the implication of your earlier post- that had Messi been more charismatic, and a greater leader, that on its own would have driven Argentina to ultimate victory in a World Cup.

One of the points often overlooked about 1986 is that the draw opened up for Argentina so they didn't at any stage have to play a team remotely as good as the one Messi faced in 2014 final. They beat Uruguay, England and Belgium- none of which was an elite outfit. Then in the final they played an average West Germany that had played the whole tournament without Bernd Schuster, and lacked a fully-fit Rummenigge. (Franz Beckenbauer actually broke out laughing in a press conference when he recalled that he'd somehow managed to reach the final with what he'd had at his disposal).