Question about Conditional pick

[Filthy Dangles]

Figured I post this here for a quick answer.

So the Sharks got Evander Kane for a 2nd that becomes a 1st if he re-signs as a Free Agent this summer. My question is, if the Sharks trade his rights to someone wanting his negotiating leverage for a 5th 6th round pick before July 1st like we often see....but that team doesn't sign him and he signs back with SJS on July 1st, what happens?

Do SJS still owe Buffalo a 1st instead of a 2nd? Could the league retroactively nix the trade on grounds of 'pick circumvention'? Has there been a situation similar to this one could point to for comparison?

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[MtoD]

You're overthinking it. The terms of a conditional pick are pretty simply laid out. There's nothing at all wrong for SJS waiting until July 1st to sign Kane if they wish to avoid giving the additional pick (if that's the terms of the pick, it may be signing with SJS in general, I'm not sure). There's risks in doing that for SJS but that's by no means 'pick circumvention'.. that's perfectly following the terms of the pick.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

You're overthinking it. The terms of a conditional pick are pretty simply laid out. There's nothing at all wrong for SJS waiting until July 1st to sign Kane if they wish to avoid giving the additional pick (if that's the terms of the pick, it may be signing with SJS in general, I'm not sure). There's risks in doing that for SJS but that's by no means 'pick circumvention'.. that's perfectly following the terms of the pick.

That's a good point. I don't actually know what the exact conditions are.

Let's assume it's in general and not before July 1st. Does another team owning his rights since SJS originally acquired him, impact that all?

 

[CuriousGeorge]

Figured I post this here for a quick answer.

So the Sharks got Evander Kane for a 2nd that becomes a 1st if he re-signs as a Free Agent this summer. My question is, if the Sharks trade his rights to someone wanting his negotiating leverage for a 5th 6th round pick before July 1st like we often see....but that team doesn't sign him and he signs back with SJS on July 1st, what happens?

Do SJS still owe Buffalo a 1st instead of a 2nd? Could the league retroactively nix the trade on grounds of 'pick circumvention'? Has there been a situation similar to this one could point to for comparison?

It is all written in the CBA. I suggest you read it in there and your question will be answered.

 

[Ciao]

Too many "if's".

 

[MtoD]

That's a good point. I don't actually know what the exact conditions are.

Let's assume it's in general and not before July 1st. Does another team owning his rights since SJS originally acquired him, impact that all?

That depends on the specific terms of the condition. Is the pick upgraded if he signs before July 1st (in which case, it would be impacted) or only if SJS signs him before July 1st (in which case, it wouldn't)?

It is all written in the CBA. I suggest you read it in there and your question will be answered.

Is it? I'm not sure it is. Maybe there's something in the NHL by-laws but I don't believe conditional picks are referenced in the CBA.

 

[tarheelhockey]

That's a good point. I don't actually know what the exact conditions are.

Let's assume it's in general and not before July 1st. Does another team owning his rights since SJS originally acquired him, impact that all?

The bottom line is the way it's written. Unfortunately we can't see the actual language of the trade condition so there's no way for anyone here to answer.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

The bottom line is the way it's written. Unfortunately we can't see the actual language of the trade condition so there's no way for anyone here to answer.

True, you can lock.

 

[boredmale]

on the subject of hypotheticals. Could a team make a trade of their first round pick with the condition that if it's a top 10 pick, they can trade it down to the 11th position?

So in this scenario say I was picking 6th. I turn around trade the 6th for the 8th and a 2nd rounder, then 8th for the 10th and a 2nd rounder. Then traded the 10th pick for the 11th and a 7th rounder.

Would the league allow this scenario?

 

[tarheelhockey]

True, you can lock.

Let's just leave it open for follow-on thoughts (like boredmale's).

 

[tarheelhockey]

on the subject of hypotheticals. Could a team make a trade of their first round pick with the condition that if it's a top 10 pick, they can trade it down to the 11th position?

So in this scenario say I was picking 6th. I turn around trade the 6th for the 8th and a 2nd rounder, then 8th for the 10th and a 2nd rounder. Then traded the 10th pick for the 11th and a 7th rounder.

Would the league allow this scenario?

From what I've seen, the league will allow all kinds of zany conditions as long as they're not breaking any rules. I don't think anyone outside the league offices gets to see exactly how these decisions are made, but they don't seem to shoot very many of them down.

But TBH, your example above is a bit confusing to me. Is the condition on the pick forcing you to make all these trades with different teams, or are you trading with the same team over and over?

 

[boredmale]

But TBH, your example above is a bit confusing to me. Is the condition on the pick forcing you to make all these trades with different teams, or are you trading with the same team over and over?

The condition says if I pick top 10, I have the right to trade my pick down as low as 11th. So in my example scenario I make 3 separate trades with 3 separate teams(6th for 8th, 8th for 10th and 10th for 11th). I just as easily could have traded 6th for 11th or 6th for 9th, then 9th for 11th, etc.

it basically would be a safeguard built into a trade to make sure you don't trade a top 10 pick

 

[tarheelhockey]

The condition says if I pick top 10, I have the right to trade my pick down as low as 11th. So in my example scenario I make 3 separate trades with 3 separate teams(6th for 8th, 8th for 10th and 10th for 11th). I just as easily could have traded 6th for 11th or 6th for 9th, then 9th for 11th, etc.

it basically would be a safeguard built into a trade to make sure you don't trade a top 10 pick

So just to clarify -- it's something like this:

Team A trades their 1st round pick to Team B, on the condition that if it's a top-10 pick they can trade it down as low as 11th
Team A ends up top-10
Team A trades 6th for 8th, 8th for 10th, 10th for 11th... with different teams
Team B finally gets the 11th pick and selects a player with it

Is that right?

 

[boredmale]

So just to clarify -- it's something like this:

Team A trades their 1st round pick to Team B, on the condition that if it's a top-10 pick they can trade it down as low as 11th
Team A ends up top-10 (they finish 6th last)
Team A trades 6th for 8th, 8th for 10th, 10th for 11th... with different teams
Team B finally gets the 11th pick and selects a player with it

Is that right?

Yes

 

[Jumptheshark]

Figured I post this here for a quick answer.

So the Sharks got Evander Kane for a 2nd that becomes a 1st if he re-signs as a Free Agent this summer. My question is, if the Sharks trade his rights to someone wanting his negotiating leverage for a 5th 6th round pick before July 1st like we often see....but that team doesn't sign him and he signs back with SJS on July 1st, what happens?

Do SJS still owe Buffalo a 1st instead of a 2nd? Could the league retroactively nix the trade on grounds of 'pick circumvention'? Has there been a situation similar to this one could point to for comparison?

you are over thinking

My understanding in the Kane case is if he signs with them at any point in time or is on their roster to start the next season it becomes a first

 

[tarheelhockey]

Yes

Ok, got it.

I think this one would fail to go through in its current format, because it's impossible to trade a pick you don't have. Once you make that first trade, Team B has your 1st round draft pick. You can't turn around and trade it again after that.

What you could do would be to arrange something similar to a "lottery protected" pick trade.

With lottery protection, it works something like this:
Team A trades [whatever player] to Team B for a) 2018 first round pick OR b) 2019 first round pick (if the 2018 pick is top-10)

Or likewise:
Team A trades [whatever player] to Team B for the lowest 2018 1st round pick that they possess
(i.e., Team B could acquire another pick and substitute it for their own)

Or if you want to get really creative and do something close to your original idea;
Team A trades [whatever player] to Team B for future considerations
The future considerations are that Team B receives Team A's 1st round draft pick one day prior to the 2018 draft, and that if Team B decides to trade that pick beforehand the trade must return a top-11 1st round draft pick that would then be given to Team A.

^ That last one sounds crazy, but it's the kind of format that future considerations trades can follow. Basically you can swap the picks around, but you can't trade a pick and then trade it again after the fact. So you have to set it up in a way that Team A is being promised possession of a specific thing that Team B actually has in their possession.

 

[boredmale]

With lottery protection, it works something like this:
Team A trades [whatever player] to Team B for a) 2018 first round pick OR b) 2019 first round pick (if the 2018 pick is top-10)

I would suggest asking Ottawa how this idea is working out for them. lol

 

[tarheelhockey]

I would suggest asking Ottawa how this idea is working out for them. lol

As I understand it, the Sens actually set it up so that they have the option to make the traded pick top-10 protected or not. I assume they'll choose to defer to 2019 if they end up top-3.

Making the protection optional is probably a smart move, in case you end up with the 10th pick and an expectation of a tank job next season.

 

[boredmale]

As I understand it, the Sens actually set it up so that they have the option to make the traded pick top-10 protected or not. I assume they'll choose to defer to 2019 if they end up top-3.

Making the protection optional is probably a smart move, in case you end up with the 10th pick and an expectation of a tank job next season.

Thing is even in a worst case scenario for the 2018 draft lottery, Ottawa will pick 5th. it's hard to give up that pick not knowing how good or bad you will be next season. I have to have a feeling Ottawa is keeping the pick no matter what.

Only thing I can really see them try and do is offer whatever pick they have to the Avs and hope to get something back of much lesser value(say like we will defer the 5th pick to you but you give us a 2nd rounder)

 

[tarheelhockey]

Thing is even in a worst case scenario for the 2018 draft lottery, Ottawa will pick 5th. it's hard to give up that pick not knowing how good or bad you will be next season. I have to have a feeling Ottawa is keeping the pick no matter what

Yeah that’s rough for a team that *might* be worse next year and get an elite prospect, but *might* be better and pick 12th or something. It’s a total guess.

 

[rent free]

Yes