Question: 1991 NHL draft order

[vadim sharifijanov]

vancouver finished fifth last. why did they pick 7th?

quebec was last. got the lindros pick, then picked second in every other round.

san jose was new, got the second overall pick, then picked first in every other round.

toronto was second last. traded their first rounder to new jersey but would have picked third. got the third pick in all the other rounds.

islanders were third last, picked fourth.

winnipeg was fourth last, picked fifth.

philadelphia finished eighth last but picked sixth.

then came vancouver, fifth last, seventh.

minny was sixth last, picked eighth.

hartford was seventh last, picked ninth.

then back to normal, detroit was ninth last, picked tenth.

philly got the sixth pick in all the other rounds too.

wtf happened here to let philly jump up three spots in the draft?

(not that the canucks would have made the same pick but philly got forsberg with the sixth pick of course.)

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[frisco]

quebec was last. got the lindros pick, then picked second in every other round.

san jose was new, got the second overall pick, then picked first in every other round.

I don't know about the other stuff but the owners made a big deal about San Jose not getting the 1st pick (Lindros) so it was decided they'd pick second overall and then first for every round after the initial one.

My Best-Carey

 

[KMart27]

I can't say for sure but I think the reason Philadelphia picked ahead of Vancouver despite having the better record was Vancouver made the playoffs.

 

[seventieslord]

I can't say for sure but I think the reason Philadelphia picked ahead of Vancouver despite having the better record was Vancouver made the playoffs.

I had to do some digging, but you're absolutely right. I couldn't find any language in the NHL official guide and record book 1991 that explicitly said so, plus the 1990 and 1989 drafts saw the exact five worst teams in the NHL miss the playoffs (which, logically, in a league where 16 of 21 teams make the playoffs and one division has six while the others have five, should be uncommon). But in 1988 the same thing happens. The Leafs, who famously were only a point out of last overall, were nonetheless a playoff team ahead of last-overall Minnesota, and therefore picked 6th overall. The teams that picked ahead of them were all non-playoff teams, including the 82-point Rangers and the 81-point Penguins, who picked just ahead of 52-point Toronto, 68 point Los Angeles and 69 point Chicago. It's hard to catch this unless you know that the 5th overall selection, made by Quebec, was the Rangers' pick originally (which the Official Guide luckily makes note of)

 

[seventieslord]

The Rangers and Penguins, by goal differential and strength of schedule (hockey reference's simple rating system) were actually the 8th and 9th best teams in the NHL, and got to draft as though they were 17th and 18th. It's easy to say that a bad team like the leafs, who really needed help, got screwed by not picking in 2nd where they actually belonged, but let's face it, they were gonna take Scott Pearson 2nd if they had that pick.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

you guys are amazing

 

[Jets4Life]

I don't know about the other stuff but the owners made a big deal about San Jose not getting the 1st pick (Lindros) so it was decided they'd pick second overall and then first for every round after the initial one.

My Best-Carey

The NHL really screwed over San Jose in the draft. Imagine the Sharks with Lindros? He would have definitely reported, and by the late 90s, the Sharks would have been Stanley Cup contenders. I'll go further, and say that Lindros career may have lasted longer, as the Flyers were notoriously bad for handling injured players.

 

[Hobnobs]

The NHL really screwed over San Jose in the draft. Imagine the Sharks with Lindros? He would have definitely reported, and by the late 90s, the Sharks would have been Stanley Cup contenders. I'll go further, and say that Lindros career may have lasted longer, as the Flyers were notoriously bad for handling injured players.

No matter how good you are at handling injuries you can't "fix" concussions.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

No matter how good you are at handling injuries you can't "fix" concussions.

He would of played less games against Stevens if he was in San Jose.

 

[Hobnobs]

He would of played less games against Stevens if he was in San Jose.

He would play more games against Konstantinov, Foote, Pronger, Chelios, Lapointe, Shanahan, Marchment, McSorley, Blake, Hatcher, Norström, Karpa, Jason Smith, Dallas Drake etc etc etc etc

 

[Jets4Life]

No matter how good you are at handling injuries you can't "fix" concussions.

I never said anything about concussions. You do realize Lindros nearly died in 1998, after being misdiagnosed, and suffering a collapsed lung. If he would have listened to the Flyers medical staff, and flown back to Philadelphia, rahter than being treated in a local hospital, he would have died. Dave Babych also sued Flyers medical staff, and won, after they misdiagnosed a career ending injury.

I am doubling down. Lindros probably would have had a longer career, if he played for San Jose for the duration of the 90s. The Flyers were notorious pressuring players to push through injuries back then. Even if Lindros did have a concussion, the Sharks may have diagnosed it quicker, and not cleared Lindros to play as early, which would have prevented additional concussions that he suffered with the Flyers.

 

[seventieslord]

The NHL really screwed over San Jose in the draft. Imagine the Sharks with Lindros? He would have definitely reported, and by the late 90s, the Sharks would have been Stanley Cup contenders. I'll go further, and say that Lindros career may have lasted longer, as the Flyers were notoriously bad for handling injured players.

I think the way that the league has slotted expansion teams into the entry draft has been fair. San Jose, for example, didn't "deserve" 1st overall just by being an expansion team.

 

[Staniowski]

I think the way that the league has slotted expansion teams into the entry draft has been fair. San Jose, for example, didn't "deserve" 1st overall just by being an expansion team.

But it was only because of Lindros that San Jose got the 2nd pick rather than the 1st, correct?

 

[seventieslord]

But it was only because of Lindros that San Jose got the 2nd pick rather than the 1st, correct?

I'm not actually sure. It seems they did things on the fly. San Jose was 2nd, then Ottawa/TB were #1 and 2, then Florida and Anaheim were #4 and 5. Nashville got 3rd, Atlanta got 2nd, and the Wild and Jackets got 3rd and 4th. I have no idea if the 1991 draft in particular was done that way because of Lindros. Maybe it was, but that does little to explain why the 9 expansion teams picked in spots 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, and 5 in a 10-year period.

 

[Staniowski]

I'm not actually sure. It seems they did things on the fly. San Jose was 2nd, then Ottawa/TB were #1 and 2, then Florida and Anaheim were #4 and 5. Nashville got 3rd, Atlanta got 2nd, and the Wild and Jackets got 3rd and 4th. I have no idea if the 1991 draft in particular was done that way because of Lindros. Maybe it was, but that does little to explain why the 9 expansion teams picked in spots 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, and 5 in a 10-year period.

Well, without looking things up, expansion teams generally picked 1st in the '70s, Perreault, Potvin, etc. Then the WHA teams were a different situation, plus the special Gretzky deal. Then San Jose was also a special case because of the weird deal with Minnesota. As part of the deal, I think the owners (or possibly some of the owners) didn't want to give Lindros to San Jose, so this is the deal they made. That's what I remember, anyway. Remember Lindros was arguably the biggest prospect in NHL history, and at least the biggest since Lemieux, everybody in the hockey world had been familiar with Lindros since 1987 and 1988, so the bad teams really wanted a chance to get him, and then this expansion team comes along. This was much discussed at the time.

Edit: Correction, Billy Harris was the expansion pick, not Potvin.

 

[seventieslord]

Well, without looking things up, expansion teams generally picked 1st in the '70s, Perreault, Potvin, etc. Then the WHA teams were a different situation, plus the special Gretzky deal. Then San Jose was also a special case because of the weird deal with Minnesota. As part of the deal, I think the owners (or possibly some of the owners) didn't want to give Lindros to San Jose, so this is the deal they made. That's what I remember, anyway. Remember Lindros was arguably the biggest prospect in NHL history, and at least the biggest since Lemieux, everybody in the hockey world had been familiar with Lindros since 1987 and 1988, so the bad teams really wanted a chance to get him, and then this expansion team comes along. This was much discussed at the time.

It makes sense. I think it's wise of a league to protect a generational talent from being thrown to an expansion team that may never become competitive. I think generally, you'd prefer they go to an established team that was at the bottom of its success cycle. Better for everyone, really (except San Jose, of course).

So, do you think that after that, they set the precedent that you don't get #1 just by being an expansion team? And if so, why the exception in 1992?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

It makes sense. I think it's wise of a league to protect a generational talent from being thrown to an expansion team that may never become competitive. I think generally, you'd prefer they go to an established team that was at the bottom of its success cycle. Better for everyone, really (except San Jose, of course).

So, do you think that after that, they set the precedent that you don't get #1 just by being an expansion team? And if so, why the exception in 1992?

honestly, i think it was more ad hoc than that. i do remember distinctly reading at the time about how sj didn't get the #1 pick because lindros was too good. that's why they got the first pick in every other round. i've always assumed without even thinking about it that it was because it wasn't "fair" that a new team started off with a generational talent. but i don't think i've ever read or heard anyone officially saying that. it could theoretically be what you're describing, to protect the generational talent from being wasted.

but i don't think '92 was an exception. '91 and '93 were the exceptions. '92 was following, as staniowski points out above, buffalo/vancouver in 1970, islanders/atlanta in '72, washington/kc in '74, and the '67 draft (the only difference being that tb got the first pick in the first round, ottawa got the first pick in the second round, and they kept alternating after that). the question should be why '93?

and my speculation is it wasn't because those guys at the top were generational talents, which none of them were. it's that interest in hockey was exploding, hence expansion in the first place of course, and in particular interest in the draft was exploding, because of lindros, and interest in prospects and young players was also exploding, not only because of lindros but also because you had the novelty of young european players which people were really interested in as well as the hockey card industry, which was a rookie-driven industry, also becoming gigantic. and all this meant that alexandre daigle, while not a generational talent, got generational hype. so there was the decision that anaheim and florida weren't going to get the top pick, not because he would have given a first year team too much of an advantage on the ice, but because that team would have gotten too much of an advantage at the box office.

why pronger and gratton too? my guess is once you've already established the two new teams aren't getting #1, they got cut out of the top three because of the symmetry with the three previous expansion teams in the last two years. they were the three worst teams and so had "earned" the top three picks (sj traded the #2 pick to hartford for #6 and sergei makarov). again totally just a guess but my feeling is because florida and anaheim got such a more advantageous expansion draft than the three previous teams (most notably, teams were only allowed to protect one goalie, so they started with beezer and guy hebert instead of peter sidorkiewicz and wendel young), and because the 1993 draft was thought to run five deep (that would be daigle, pronger, gratton, kozlov, niedermayer—not kariya), sj, ottawa, and tb should get the first shots at improving.

 

[Hobnobs]

I never said anything about concussions. You do realize Lindros nearly died in 1998, after being misdiagnosed, and suffering a collapsed lung. If he would have listened to the Flyers medical staff, and flown back to Philadelphia, rahter than being treated in a local hospital, he would have died. Dave Babych also sued Flyers medical staff, and won, after they misdiagnosed a career ending injury.

I am doubling down. Lindros probably would have had a longer career, if he played for San Jose for the duration of the 90s. The Flyers were notorious pressuring players to push through injuries back then. Even if Lindros did have a concussion, the Sharks may have diagnosed it quicker, and not cleared Lindros to play as early, which would have prevented additional concussions that he suffered with the Flyers.

Yea Lindros retired because of concussions which would be caused and shortened his career no matter where he played. Also resting from concussions does very little for not getting another.

 

[Staniowski]

It makes sense. I think it's wise of a league to protect a generational talent from being thrown to an expansion team that may never become competitive. I think generally, you'd prefer they go to an established team that was at the bottom of its success cycle. Better for everyone, really (except San Jose, of course).

So, do you think that after that, they set the precedent that you don't get #1 just by being an expansion team? And if so, why the exception in 1992?

I don't know. Florida and Anaheim, picked 4th and 5th in '93, then 1st and 2nd in '94. I can't remember the details of why.

 

[Hobnobs]

I don't know. Florida and Anaheim, picked 4th and 5th in '93, then 1st and 2nd in '94. I can't remember the details of why.

I mean. 93 was the year of Stein. Nothing made sense when he was around. “We will now have an initial toss of the coin to determine which team will get to call the toss of the coin”.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I don't know. Florida and Anaheim, picked 4th and 5th in '93, then 1st and 2nd in '94. I can't remember the details of why.

oh right i totally forgot about florida and anaheim jumping so many spots to the top of the 94 draft

 

[tony d]

Interesting thread. ? becomes does Lindros report to San Jose if they pick #1 overall? I'm not sure that he would.

 

[Brodeur]

I don't know. Florida and Anaheim, picked 4th and 5th in '93, then 1st and 2nd in '94. I can't remember the details of why.

I think somebody posted a video of the 1993 Draft on YouTube which featured the Anaheim/Florida coin toss which was just part of their expansion agreement with the league. Winner of the coin toss had the choice of:

A) 5th overall pick in 1993 and 1st overall in 1994
B) 4th overall pick in 1993 and 2nd overall in 1994

Florida won and opted for option A. In an amusing 'after the fact' moment, the TSN reporter asked Florida GM Bobby Clarke whether they were eyeing Jason Bonsignore with the #1 pick in 1994.

Also an unrelated fun story with the 5th overall pick: San Jose traded the #2 pick to Hartford for #6 plus Sergei Makarov and other picks. San Jose wanted Viktor Kozlov and only agreed to the deal if Hartford included a conditional 1994 1st round pick if Kozlov was off the board. Hartford GM Brian Burke claimed that the conditional pick was only known between them, San Jose, and the NHL. But somehow Bobby Clarke caught wind of it and told Burke that Florida would take Kozlov at #5 unless they gave him a 1994 2nd round pick. Burke didn't want to call Clarke's bluff and forked over another pick. To this day Burke is still bitter about that.

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As for the Sharks 1991 pick, I vaguely remember something about the original plan being San Jose to enter the league in 1992-93 with Tampa Bay and Ottawa. But their owner forced his way into the league a year early with some thought that it was purely to try to get Lindros? The league gave them the #2 pick because other teams weren't happy that the idea of an expansion team getting a presumed generational guy.

 

[seventieslord]

Interesting thread. ? becomes does Lindros report to San Jose if they pick #1 overall? I'm not sure that he would.

I really don't think so.

 

[Hobnobs]

I really don't think so.

Its hard to speculate but I mean he reported to Philly so why not San Jose? It would be a media frenzy and lots of money for his parents.