Quebec still waiting patiently.

[cheswick]

brian burke said quebec is way too small of city and have no corporate support.......

It’s way too small a city but it’s pretty much the same size as Winnipeg. So that clearly makes no sense.

 

[ORRFForever]

It’s way too small a city but it’s pretty much the same size as Winnipeg. So that clearly makes no sense.

So...

Does that mean they have no chance?

 

[cheswick]

So...

Does that mean they have no chance?

It means that if they have no chance it’s not to do with the size of the market.

 

[ORRFForever]

It means that if they have no chance it’s not to do with the size of the market.

Help me understand what you mean, please.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Jacobs is super influential. You need two thirds of the owners to make a move - expansion or relocation.

Tell me frankly how successful are Florida, Carolina or even NJ or NYI in their own market ? It is already written in the sky that Arizona will eventually move to Houston.

I know that Bettan was crying his heart out when Atlanta Thrashers were relocated to Winnipeg, a small Canadian market with real hockey fans.

Why is it that these kind of people are always the ones that believe owners work for Bettman and not the other way around?

And as for Jeremy Jacobs, bruh, he cant tell other 30 billionaires what to do.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

Help me understand what you mean, please.

Quebec is not getting a team, $500m from Vegas and $650m from Seattle means no need for Quebec. The NHL is looking at increasing it's US tv deal and adding more small Canadian markets doesn't help. It might suck for Quebec but no one is entitled to a team.

 

[ORRFForever]

Quebec is not getting a team, $500m from Vegas and $650m from Seattle means no need for Quebec. The NHL is looking at increasing it's US tv deal and adding more small Canadian markets doesn't help. It might suck for Quebec but no one is entitled to a team.

That's too bad. Thanks for the answer.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I think eventually all big 4 leagues will expand to 38 to 40 teams tbh. I think then QC will have a team.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I think eventually all big 4 leagues will expand to 38 to 40 teams tbh. I think then QC will have a team.

YOU WANT THE AHL/ECHL to go to 38-40, BK? because it's already known that the AHL is going to 32, the ECHL is stuck at 27, and you want 38 to 40 in each league....

where are the 6-10 markets not already served by some form of hockey, whether it's the current existing leagues or not, then there's the leagues that feed into those leagues;NCDC, NA3EHL, to name 2 since Lewiston-Auburn now has one of each in those respected leagues.....not to mention arena dates for other ancillary events these arenas hold or other pro teams who happen to share current AHL/ECHL Arenas ....

then you get into markets that have either struggled with past franchises or simply told their arenas they needed a break from hockey.... Roanoke was one of those, Elmira is another

 

[CHIP72]

YOU WANT THE AHL/ECHL to go to 38-40, BK? because it's already known that the AHL is going to 32, the ECHL is stuck at 27, and you want 38 to 40 in each league....

where are the 6-10 markets not already served by some form of hockey, whether it's the current existing leagues or not, then there's the leagues that feed into those leagues;NCDC, NA3EHL, to name 2 since Lewiston-Auburn now has one of each in those respected leagues.....not to mention arena dates for other ancillary events these arenas hold or other pro teams who happen to share current AHL/ECHL Arenas ....

then you get into markets that have either struggled with past franchises or simply told their arenas they needed a break from hockey.... Roanoke was one of those, Elmira is another

If the NHL wants to expand to 34, 38, 40, or whatever number of teams beyond 32 teams, they will do so, and not care all that much about the impact that may have on the AHL or ECHL. That's a small item to be concerned with in the general scheme of things when a major league expands, and they'll worry about that primarily after the expansion is announced.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

If the NHL wants to expand to 34, 38, 40, or whatever number of teams beyond 32 teams, they will do so, and not care all that much about the impact that may have on the AHL or ECHL. That's a small item to be concerned with in the general scheme of things when a major league expands, and they'll worry about that primarily after the expansion is announced.

ok, bud, name the 6-10 markets in hockey not already served or who have said thanks but no thanks that also take in to account trade shows, and other pro teams in other leagues ie Ontario, CA has the Reign and the Agua Caliente Clippers of Ontario

 

[Albatros]

ok, bud, name the 6-10 markets in hockey not already served

36
Hamilton
Houston
Kansas City
Québec

40
Atlanta
Austin
Portland
San Diego

 

[gstommylee]

36
Hamilton
Houston
Kansas City
Québec

40
Atlanta
Austin
Portland
San Diego

That will never happen. None of those markets will actually pay 650m+. Houston gets one via relocation not expansion. I doubt the league can actually support 40 teams with out having a talent shortage. KC lack actual governmental support.

I think eventually all big 4 leagues will expand to 38 to 40 teams tbh. I think then QC will have a team.

That will also never happen. The most you will see is 32 teams all 4 leagues. Nothing higher than that.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

36
Hamilton
Houston
Kansas City
Québec

40
Atlanta
Austin
Portland
San Diego

Hamilton no arena OHL;

Houston-no owner interested in expansion fee; then deal with Harris County and Fertitta similar to the Wild v Alexander scenario "handshake lease";

Kansas City, yea, unless that's changed since Sylvester James declared them a no; could threaten the Mavericks (ECHL);

Quebec, see Houston;

Atlanta, yea, right, see Houston, and Cobb seems to be the center now of their metro;

Austin-Dallas ring any bells with the Texas Stars in Cedar Park, which is covering that territory;

Portland, OR: NOT IF Seattle has that territory, and who would own the remaining assets including Moda Center still has not been determined after the transition from Paul Allen;

San Diego is essentially Anaheim's territory with the AHL Gulls existing

 

[MNNumbers]

The problem with all the markets is NOT interest in hockey, or 'niceness of market', however you want to quantify that. The problem is the same problem which has been exposed by the continuing saga in Glendale, Sunrise and Raleigh.....

Namely, the economics of the game are such that a few markets rake in so much $$ that the smallest markets in the league can't keep up, and the CBA requires those same small markets to pay a certain amount of that in players' salaries. The only solution to this issue is more central revenue.

Central revenue can be obtained 2 ways: Either nationwide contracts for sponsorships and media rights go up, or local monies are declared to be shared. These are the only 2 ways it can happen.

As it currently stands, about 6% of league wide HRR is redistributed from the big markets all across the league (this number excepts the nationwide contracts mentioned above), and this is not enough. Obviously, there is a limit to how much you can force the big markets to share.

In an environment like this one, the cost of a franchise in the first place is high, and then the new markets face years of difficulties catching up.

The lowest hanging fruit is always harvested first. So, Vegas (entertainment capital of the world) and Seattle (big US market in an underserved region of the continent) have already been harvested.

What's left? Atlanta (could work, potentially, but there is LOTS of competition there, and little hockey history. This could be overcome, but it's a big investment).
Hamilton.....Would work if you can get around the fee the Leafs would want. But aside from the expansion fee, doesn't help the bottom line of the other owners.
Quebec....Could work, too, because of the rabid fan base. But aside from the expansion fee, offers nothing to the other owners.
Any other place is not a large enough market to even THINK about getting started in the NHL economic picture.

 

[Albatros]

Hamilton no arena OHL;

Houston-no owner interested in expansion fee; then deal with Harris County and Fertitta similar to the Wild v Alexander scenario "handshake lease";

Kansas City, yea, unless that's changed since Sylvester James declared them a no; could threaten the Mavericks (ECHL);

Quebec, see Houston;

Atlanta, yea, right, see Houston, and Cobb seems to be the center now of their metro;

Austin-Dallas ring any bells with the Texas Stars in Cedar Park, which is covering that territory;

Portland, OR: NOT IF Seattle has that territory, and who would own the remaining assets including Moda Center still has not been determined after the transition from Paul Allen;

San Diego is essentially Anaheim's territory with the AHL Gulls existing

AHL and OHL franchises are not a factor, their competition is not a threat at all. Arenas can be built where such do not already exist, the number of people driving from Austin to Dallas to watch the Stars is negligible and will not affect Austin as a market. In San Diego or Portland it's the same. Expansion fees can be set according to league strategy, 650m+ is not set in stone should expansion be desired.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

AHL and OHL franchises are not a factor, their competition is not a threat at all. Arenas can be built where such do not already exist, the number of people driving from Austin to Dallas to watch the Stars is negligible and will not affect Austin as a market. In San Diego or Portland it's the same. Expansion fees can be set according to league strategy, 650m+ is not set in stone should expansion be desired.

see MNN'S POST, the AHL isn't walking away from San Diego, for one thing, if it took over a decade to negotiate how that Pacific division was set up at the expense of Worcester, Manchester, Norfolk, and then in 2015, Portland, ME, then having San Antonio and Texas in that alignment until Tucson, and Colorado filled those slots

 

[Albatros]

see MNN'S POST, the AHL isn't walking away from San Diego, for one thing, if it took over a decade to negotiate how that Pacific division was set up at the expense of Worcester, Manchester, Norfolk, and then in 2015, Portland, ME, then having San Antonio and Texas in that alignment until Tucson, and Colorado filled those slots

Who cares what the AHL does? If there's an NHL franchise in town there's no way an AHL one can compete.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Who cares what the AHL does? If there's an NHL franchise in town there's no way an AHL one can compete.

if Seattle's joining as did Vegas the AHL has followed suit, Vegas took over from who, Albatros, the LV Wranglers, so to say both the AHL/ECHL ARE invested is a non-starter, they are invested and why hasn't Quebec applied for the AHL or ECHL since the Canadiens bolted Quebec for HAMILTON, St. John's and Laval, in fact, the Canadiens 1st AHL Affiliate was where? MONTREAL

 

[Albatros]

The AHL and the ECHL have no say in NHL expansion. If they want to expand accordingly they can, if they prefer not to that's fine too. But if they try to compete with the NHL directly they'll lose ten times out of ten. For Québec AHL or ECHL hockey is not a sufficient alternative.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

The AHL and the ECHL have no say in NHL expansion. If they want to expand accordingly they can, if they prefer not to that's fine too. But if they try to compete with the NHL directly they'll lose ten times out of ten. For Québec AHL or ECHL hockey is not a sufficient alternative.

YES THEY DO, sorry to burst your bubble, but how many AHL Teams are outright owned by the NHL Franchise, Albatros or have major control over the AHL Affiliate as Vegas does in Chicago, the trend doesn't lie, the ECHL, IS TRENDING THAT WAY as well especially with Toronto involved and both New York teams are in New England within the last 3 years....

that sentiment YOU ARE ESPOUSING is why Quebec will never see the NHL anytime soon, if ever

 

[Cellee]

Why is it that these kind of people are always the ones that believe owners work for Bettman and not the other way around?

And as for Jeremy Jacobs, bruh, he cant tell other 30 billionaires what to do.

It is pretty remarkable.

As a Jets fan I also do not think Bettman has it out for us c

 

[MNNumbers]

Hutch,

I appreciate your zeal for minor league hockey. I really do.

And, I appreciate the idea that the AHL itself cares about what happens in these markets.

However, if the NHL decided to go to San Diego, or Portland, or Portland, ME, or wherever......let's look at the numbers....

AHL team costs what, 10M (I think the Tucson affiliate of the Yotes was purchased for 5M).
New NHL team costs 500M+.
Arena costs 500M+
Current project in Seattle has seen its cost creep upward by 50M because of material costs.

Basically, the value of an AHL team is small enough compared to the numbers involved in the NHL, that the NHL owners, and any prospective NHL expansion or relocation owner, isn't going to be bothered about what to do with the AHL.

Where the NHL goes is purely a numbers game.
Cost of franchise
Cost of arena, as applicable - be it lease or building one
Size of market.
Perceived value of market to the owners already in the league.

These are the only things that matter.

Quebec waits, and waits, because of the perceived value of their market to other owners.
If some team suffers too many losses and can't remain in their present location, then Quebec may become more valuable to the other owners.

It's that simple.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Bryan Burke is totally disconnected.

You have to take about half of what Burke says with a mine of salt, but he's more plugged into the league than people want to give him credit for.

The only way QC can get a NHL team is IF Carolina, OR Florida OR Ottawa are in deep ****... and Bettman is not Commisionner anymore.

Is this like how Winnipeg would never get a team with Bettman as Commissioner?

If Thrashers stayed, Coyotes would have move back to Winnipeg.

I think there's a pretty decent chance even with the Thrashers staying in Atlanta, the Coyotes are still in Phoenix right now with virtually all signs pointing to "they're leaving after '19-20."

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Hutch,

I appreciate your zeal for minor league hockey. I really do.

And, I appreciate the idea that the AHL itself cares about what happens in these markets.

However, if the NHL decided to go to San Diego, or Portland, or Portland, ME, or wherever......let's look at the numbers....

AHL team costs what, 10M (I think the Tucson affiliate of the Yotes was purchased for 5M).
New NHL team costs 500M+.
Arena costs 500M+
Current project in Seattle has seen its cost creep upward by 50M because of material costs.

Basically, the value of an AHL team is small enough compared to the numbers involved in the NHL, that the NHL owners, and any prospective NHL expansion or relocation owner, isn't going to be bothered about what to do with the AHL.

Where the NHL goes is purely a numbers game.
Cost of franchise
Cost of arena, as applicable - be it lease or building one
Size of market.
Perceived value of market to the owners already in the league.

These are the only things that matter.

Quebec waits, and waits, because of the perceived value of their market to other owners.
If some team suffers too many losses and can't remain in their present location, then Quebec may become more valuable to the other owners.

It's that simple.

the AHL has left, Manchester, Worcester, and Portland, Maine as a result of the Pacific Division, MNN, and it is now doubtful that Portland will ever see the AHL Again now that the ECHL is here, it is a much more sustainable financial enterprise and that is why Ron Cain, unfortunately, came to that conclusion, from what we know internally here in Portland, how successful this version of the Mariners will be long-term as compared to both the AHL Versions and how the AHL now views smaller markets in the last decade or so has shifted.....

I'M not sure you are aware, but Manchester is back up for sale and its long standing run as a Kings affiliate is likely in jeopardy since it was transitioned into private ownership in 2015/16.....

Wilkes-Barre/Scranton has been there for 18 years and that franchise is in jeopardy if it doesn't get a lease extension, something Portland suffered through in 2013/14 which is well documented

it is highly doubtful the three New England markets would want to return to the AHL, Portland likely will not be one of them, and that's based off how the AHL has handled the creation of the Pacific Division, which began in 2006, ironically in Portland.... the AHL Pacific would've happened by this October if it hadn't been implemented back in 2014/15....

Always appreciate the posts you make, MNN.....