TSN: Quarter point grades by Craig Button

[smirob]

At ES...

Desharnais 22 GP 13pts
Fleischmann 22 GP 14pts
Weise 22 GP 11pts
Eller 22 GP 6pts
Mitchell 20 GP 10pts
DSP 21 GP 6pts

Eller is barely outproducing Flynn(5pts in 22 games) and Semin(4pts in 14 games) at ES.

Care to factor in TOI in your discussion? Or is that just a meaningless stat?

 

[smirob]

Again Monctonscout changes his viewpoint.

ALL OF LAST YEAR:

"Desharnais is not on our first line, he doesn't play more minutes than Plek" - despite playing with our best (or top line) winger, pacioretty.


NOW:

"Eller is on our 2nd line winger" - despite playing 3rd line minutes.

Which one is it 'scout'?

You didn't want DD evaluated as a 'Top line centre' due to icetime because it didn't support YOUR argument.

Now you want Eller evaluated as a '2nd line winger' while ignoring icetime to support YOUR argument. .


I don't expect a response, because each time I shine some light on this you just ignore it.

Do you want to respond on this MS?

Or no....

 

[Dog]

I would probably give Petry an A, the guy has been absolutely solid.

 

[Price is Wright]

Care to factor in TOI in your discussion? Or is that just a meaningless stat?

ES Points, ES TOI

October
Eller: 3 goals, 1 assist, 4 points, 143 minutes
Fleischmann: 2 goals, 5 assists, 7 points, 161 minutes
Mitchell: 5 goals, 3 assists, 8 points, 121 minutes
Flynn: 1 goal, 2 assists, 3 points, 129 minutes
Smith-Pelly: 1 goal, 3 assists, 4 points, 128 minutes

November
Eller: 3 goals, 0 assists, 3 points, 115 minutes
Fleischmann: 5 goals, 3 assists, 8 points, 135 minutes
Mitchell: 0 goals, 2 assists, 2 points, 86 minutes
Flynn: 1 goal, 1 assist, 2 points, 101 minutes
Smith-Pelly: 0 goals, 2 assists, 2 points, 99 minutes

Overall Differences
Fleischmann: 15 points, 296 minutes
Eller: 7 points, 258 minutes
Flynn: 5 points, 230 minutes
Smith-Pelly: 6 points, 227 minutes
Mitchell: 10 points, 207 minutes

Flash and Eller have an 8 point difference with Fleischmann playing 38 more minutes.

Eller and Flynn have a two point difference with Eller playing 28 more minutes.

Eller and Smith-Pelly have a one point difference with Eller playing 31 more minutes.

The Eller/Mitchell comparison speaks for itself.

If your point was that it wasn't a meaningless stat, you're right. It really magnifies Eller's failure to outscore the fourth line at even strength!

 

[smirob]

[NHL][/NHL]

ES Points, ES TOI

October
Eller: 3 goals, 1 assist, 4 points, 143 minutes
Fleischmann: 2 goals, 5 assists, 7 points, 161 minutes
Mitchell: 5 goals, 3 assists, 8 points, 121 minutes
Flynn: 1 goal, 2 assists, 3 points, 129 minutes
Smith-Pelly: 1 goal, 3 assists, 4 points, 128 minutes

November
Eller: 3 goals, 0 assists, 3 points, 115 minutes
Fleischmann: 5 goals, 3 assists, 8 points, 135 minutes
Mitchell: 0 goals, 2 assists, 2 points, 86 minutes
Flynn: 1 goal, 1 assist, 2 points, 101 minutes
Smith-Pelly: 0 goals, 2 assists, 2 points, 99 minutes

Overall Differences
Fleischmann: 15 points, 296 minutes
Eller: 7 points, 258 minutes
Flynn: 5 points, 230 minutes
Smith-Pelly: 6 points, 227 minutes
Mitchell: 10 points, 207 minutes

Flash and Eller have an 8 point difference with Fleischmann playing 38 more minutes.

Eller and Flynn have a two point difference with Eller playing 28 more minutes.

Eller and Smith-Pelly have a one point difference with Eller playing 31 more minutes.

The Eller/Mitchell comparison speaks for itself.

If your point was that it wasn't a meaningless stat, you're right. It really magnifies Eller's failure to outscore the fourth line at even strength!

No it proves my point that Eller is a third line winger, and should be evaluated as such.

I find it funny that many have a hate on for Eller, typically they call him our 2nd line winger (to support their argument), yet don't mention Galchenyuks struggles to date.

I like both Eller and Galchenyuk, they will turn things around I am sure.
But currently they are on our 3rd line, we should re-adjust our expectations accordingly.

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

I find people make too big a deal of the PTO thing. There were a ton of PTO's this year in large part because of less money in the system so it squeezed hard on the non elite UFA's. A pile of them would have normally gotten 2-3-4 year deals at 2-4 mil AAV in other years where the cap would be rising a lot and smaller markets would have gotten more revenue sharing...all goes back to the Canadian $$.

Yeah, but Flash is playing more like a 5.5-6M cap hit player right now. Effin' strong 2-way play. Not the regular 2M UFA guy, heck even 4M would be cheap money for his efficiency right now.

Props on him he worked very hard to come back in force. I don't know what happened with him last year but this year he's rejuvenated.

 

[LaP]

I have no issue with his grade.

I have issue with people who have the memory of a goldfish and change their viewpoint on actual stats on a daily basis to support their boy.

But who really change their stats or anything?

Many people like me always said Eller is a good 3rd liner and that's it. Really the % of people who really believe he is a bonafide top 6 guy is marginal.

I don't even know where this DD versus Eller battle started. Probably because some people said anyone including Eller could do around 45 points playing with Patch and DD would do better in a lesser role with less ice time and pressure. I've said it but i've said it in a sarcastic way like even a 3rd liner would do points playing with Patch. Frankly imo we were right. Patch will do his goals/points no matter what and the center playing with him will do a bunch of assists no matter what. Patch is a very underrated regular season player around here imo. People are now using empty net to diminish him ... And honestly the last time DD looked as good as this season was when he played with Cole and Patch 4 years ago. He battles hard, he finally shoots the puck on the net and pass the puck both side of the ice. Being the best player of his line in a reduced role helped him a lot. He's doing great.

Back on Eller he is doing okay. He is learning a new position he never played at the pro level. They carry a 4th line player on their line and despite all the rhetorics some around here use carrying a 4th line player on an offensive line does affect stats over a long period of time specially with a young inexperienced center like AG. Using a higher than usual productive 4th line to say it doesn't matter is kind of weird to say the least.

Ideally Eller would play on the 3rd line as a center. But for now he can do the job on the 2½nd line as a winger. We don't have better anyway. As a winger i don't care much about the number of assist he gets. As long as he scores 20-25 goals it's fine. Let's solve the RW problem first and stop saying Chuckie needs to polish a turd cause he is a 3rd overall pick. Saying that is stupid. There's a reason other teams doesn't play 4th liner on their 2nd line. Let's also give Eller a minimum of 40 games to learn his new position and then if it still doesn't work MB can try to trade Eller for a real winger. But getting two top 6 wingers via trade the same year is kind of unrealistic.

It's a problem that should have been solved last year imo. I've been saying for 2 years that DD and Eller should both be 3rd line center and MB should make a choice and trade one fore a winger. But since we need to get a RW first since Semin did not work it might be a little bit hard to also trade Eller for a real winger. But first thing first we need a RW for this line. It's not normal that an AHLer can come 20 games into the season and offer the best performance by a RW on what should be the 2nd line technically speaking. That's what Ghetto just did.

 

[MXD]

I think Button factors in salary, as absolutely else nothing justifies Desharnais being a full letter below Fleischmann.

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

The assist....

5on5 SAT = Shot attempts at 5on5
Shots Attempts at 5on5 = Offensive and possession of the puck

Best Forwards so far:
Pacioretty = 326
Gallagher = 320
Plekanec = 311
Galchenyuk = 255
Eller = 252
Fleishmann = 244
Desharnais = 239
Weise = 233

Eller is the one getting the LESS 5on5 ice-time in that group.

Okay, this doesn't mean Eller is a good player offensively.
It doesn't mean that Eller don'T lack of vision or his prone to brain farts.
It doesn't mean a whole lot like most stats.......

But it does say this: Eller isn't preventing shots from being taken by his linesmates when he's on the ice, in fact there's more shots when he is on the ice

Is every shots missed, stopped, hit the post or blocked is all on Eller?

There getting their chances, they don't finished them (Eller is still the best finisher on that line and he shouldn't be IMO).

Many takes his lack of assists as actual prove that he doesn't create offense.....SAT says totally the contrary.

lol

We're talking about assists and you come up with shot metrics. Awesome.

But from these stats what you could point at isn't that Eller isn't getting assists because his linemates can't bury their chances, because technically an assist isn't coming from a shot attempt maybe half the time, right ? So what is the % of shot attempts that end up giving up assists compared to say, a PASS, which dosen't count on shot metrics (and therefore skews the balance in Eller's favor and not a guy like DD, who's more prone at not being the guy taking the shots on net).

Another point you could make would be the absence in those stats of their RW (Semin, Byron, DSP), because y'know, having a good RWer with them would help them tremendously. Or perhaps their meaningless contribution is due in part in playing with Eller, which is more likely to shoot pucks at net from bad angles because he's simply lacking vision.

I'd be curious to see pass attempts / pass completion ratios and mix them with shot metrics and points.

 

[Bryson]

http://www.tsn.ca/montreal-habs-firing-on-all-cylinders-in-strong-start-1.398522

I find Eller at C+ is pretty charitable, he hasn't really produced much on offense given top 6 minutes.

Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Shame on you. You're like a little six year old always crying for attention and constantly needs to be corrected.

Plekanec 18:06
Desharnais 15:53
Flynn 13:33
Galchenyuk 12:13
Eller 11:52

On pace for 24 goals while playing 4th line minutes. Yup. Top six minutes my ass.

Eller did nothing on that play, Flesischmann took a loose puck and went in and sniped it home.

If you didn't have rose colored glasses on you'd realize that having Eller in on that rush forced the Goalie to respect the pass and cheat just enough to create an opening for Flash. Get a clue.

And how many goals has DD benefited from Flash and Weise taking loose pucks and going in and scoring? All this talk about Desharnais turning Fleischmann's career around is laughable. Fleischmann didn't improve because of DD. Fleischmann improved because of Fleischmann.

 

[Milhouse40]

lol

We're talking about assists and you come up with shot metrics. Awesome.

But from these stats what you could point at isn't that Eller isn't getting assists because his linemates can't bury their chances, because technically an assist isn't coming from a shot attempt maybe half the time, right ? So what is the % of shot attempts that end up giving up assists compared to say, a PASS, which dosen't count on shot metrics (and therefore skews the balance in Eller's favor and not a guy like DD, who's more prone at not being the guy taking the shots on net).

Another point you could make would be the absence in those stats of their RW (Semin, Byron, DSP), because y'know, having a good RWer with them would help them tremendously. Or perhaps their meaningless contribution is due in part in playing with Eller, which is more likely to shoot pucks at net from bad angles because he's simply lacking vision.

I'd be curious to see pass attempts / pass completion ratios and mix them with shot metrics and points.

SAT
Calculation = (5 on 5): Team shots on goal + team missed shots + opponent blocked shots (excluding empty net). Also called Corsi for

Assists come on a goal, goal comes from a shot attemps.
SAT are those from all the player on the ice.

When Eller is on the ice, there was 252 shot attempts toward the net from him and his linesmates. So even if DD doesn't shot and make a pass, that pass might results in a SAT....

So you saying that Eller is shooting fomr everywhere and have more SAT than DD because Eller shoot more or have lack of vision is not true.

Don't laugh at post who don't really get...

 

[Monctonscout]

Care to factor in TOI in your discussion? Or is that just a meaningless stat?

I didn't have those numbers, but I doubt those guys play more than Eller at ES. If they do it's not my a lot.

 

[FuzzyWuzzy]

ES Points, ES TOI

October
Eller: 3 goals, 1 assist, 4 points, 143 minutes
Fleischmann: 2 goals, 5 assists, 7 points, 161 minutes
Mitchell: 5 goals, 3 assists, 8 points, 121 minutes
Flynn: 1 goal, 2 assists, 3 points, 129 minutes
Smith-Pelly: 1 goal, 3 assists, 4 points, 128 minutes

November
Eller: 3 goals, 0 assists, 3 points, 115 minutes
Fleischmann: 5 goals, 3 assists, 8 points, 135 minutes
Mitchell: 0 goals, 2 assists, 2 points, 86 minutes
Flynn: 1 goal, 1 assist, 2 points, 101 minutes
Smith-Pelly: 0 goals, 2 assists, 2 points, 99 minutes

Overall Differences
Fleischmann: 15 points, 296 minutes
Eller: 7 points, 258 minutes
Flynn: 5 points, 230 minutes
Smith-Pelly: 6 points, 227 minutes
Mitchell: 10 points, 207 minutes

Flash and Eller have an 8 point difference with Fleischmann playing 38 more minutes.

Eller and Flynn have a two point difference with Eller playing 28 more minutes.

Eller and Smith-Pelly have a one point difference with Eller playing 31 more minutes.

The Eller/Mitchell comparison speaks for itself.

If your point was that it wasn't a meaningless stat, you're right. It really magnifies Eller's failure to outscore the fourth line at even strength!

To me this post is indisputable. Eller is stinking it up. Cant even outproduce Torrey Mitchell while playing wing to Galchenyuk.

 

[Monctonscout]

Do you want to respond on this MS?

Or no....

The Galchenyuk line started the year as #2 and that was the plan, but the Desharnais line has outplayed them pretty clearly and forced the coaching staff to give them more minutes. That's how hockey works at most levels...

Plekanec was the top center last year and again this year, the only difference is he has Pcaioretty on his wing every game, last year it was only about 10-15%.

 

[smirob]

The Galchenyuk line started the year as #2 and that was the plan, but the Desharnais line has outplayed them pretty clearly and forced the coaching staff to give them more minutes. That's how hockey works at most levels...

Plekanec was the top center last year and again this year, the only difference is he has Pcaioretty on his wing every game, last year it was only about 10-15%.

Ok so Eller is our 3rd line winger at this point?

He's on pace for 24 goals, not good enough for a 3rd line winger?

 

[Monctonscout]

Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Shame on you. You're like a little six year old always crying for attention and constantly needs to be corrected.

Plekanec 18:06
Desharnais 15:53
Flynn 13:33
Galchenyuk 12:13
Eller 11:52

On pace for 24 goals while playing 4th line minutes. Yup. Top six minutes my ass.



If you didn't have rose colored glasses on you'd realize that having Eller in on that rush forced the Goalie to respect the pass and cheat just enough to create an opening for Flash. Get a clue.

And how many goals has DD benefited from Flash and Weise taking loose pucks and going in and scoring? All this talk about Desharnais turning Fleischmann's career around is laughable. Fleischmann didn't improve because of DD. Fleischmann improved because of Fleischmann.

Your numbers are wrong, Desharnais doesn't even have 15 minutes a game TOTAL let alone 15:53 at ES.

Not sure how playing with Galchenyuk equates to 4th line minutes.

They started the year as the 2nd line and got outplayed by the Desharnais line.

It's rather quite funny to hear you not give Desharnais any credit for anything...Weise goes from a 4th liner to a guy on pace for 34 goals and Fleischmann goes from 27 points last year to a 56 point pace...yet their center deserves no credit for it...comical.

 

[smirob]

I didn't have those numbers, but I doubt those guys play more than Eller at ES. If they do it's not my a lot.

The DD line plays more than the Galchenyuk line at ES.

You were the one who said Eller is getting top 6 minutes, which is false.
It's a pretty easy stat to find.

 

[Monctonscout]

Ok so Eller is our 3rd line winger at this point?

He's on pace for 24 goals, not good enough for a 3rd line winger?

First of all his pace is 22 goals, second of all, there is more to playing in the top 6 than just goals. Eller has poor vision which affects Galchenyuk's ability to score, he only has 2 ES goals in 22 games.

I'd bet my house he won't score 20 as he always dips in Jan-March every year.

 

[Monctonscout]

The DD line plays more than the Galchenyuk line at ES.

You were the one who said Eller is getting top 6 minutes, which is false.
It's a pretty easy stat to find.

He did to start the year. Desharnais played 13:52 a game in October and that includes PP time which is around 2 minutes/game. I would estimate about 12/game at ES.

 

[Capitaine Subban*]

Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Shame on you. You're like a little six year old always crying for attention and constantly needs to be corrected.

Plekanec 18:06
Desharnais 15:53
Flynn 13:33
Galchenyuk 12:13
Eller 11:52

On pace for 24 goals while playing 4th line minutes. Yup. Top six minutes my ass.



If you didn't have rose colored glasses on you'd realize that having Eller in on that rush forced the Goalie to respect the pass and cheat just enough to create an opening for Flash. Get a clue.

And how many goals has DD benefited from Flash and Weise taking loose pucks and going in and scoring? All this talk about Desharnais turning Fleischmann's career around is laughable. Fleischmann didn't improve because of DD. Fleischmann improved because of Fleischmann.

Plekanec 18:52
Desharnais 14:59
Flynn 12:07
Galchenyuk 14:12
Eller 13:34

via NHL.com

#Irony

 

[smirob]

He did to start the year.

Very good.....

 

[smirob]

Plekanec 18:52 - 1st
Desharnais 14:59 - 2nd
Flynn 12:07 -4th
Galchenyuk 14:12 -3rd
Eller 13:34 -3rd

via NHL.com

#Irony

Perfect now we're all on the same page.

 

[Capitaine Subban*]

Ok so Eller is our 3rd line winger at this point?

He's on pace for 24 goals, not good enough for a 3rd line winger?

24g & 3 assist would be odd but respectable for a 3rd liner but I still think he is a problem for Galchenyuk (who by himself is underperforming) since he rarely do anything creative or smart in the offensive zone.

 

[smirob]

24g & 3 assist would be odd but respectable for a 3rd liner but I still think he is a problem for Galchenyuk (who by himself is underperforming) since he rarely do anything creative or smart in the offensive zone.

Well what are our options....

Do you want Flash on Chuckys wing?

 

[Milhouse40]

Your numbers are wrong, Desharnais doesn't even have 15 minutes a game TOTAL let alone 15:53 at ES.

Not sure how playing with Galchenyuk equates to 4th line minutes.

They started the year as the 2nd line and got outplayed by the Desharnais line.

It's rather quite funny to hear you not give Desharnais any credit for anything...Weise goes from a 4th liner to a guy on pace for 34 goals and Fleischmann goes from 27 points last year to a 56 point pace...yet their center deserves no credit for it...comical.

Desharnais deserve credit for Desharnais' points. End of story.
Just like Flash deserve credit for his own. But again, you guys ALWAYS think that Desharnais is the catalyst of everything, just like he was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO important to Pacioretty's success.

Well, Pacioretty is on pace for 41 goals/ 74 points, career high away from Desharnais AND NOT playing in a sheltered offensive way. Yet, i heard you and thousand of Habs Fans saying for 3 years that Plekanec wouldn't be able to make Pacioretty produce like DD and that he and Desharnais had that "craaaaaazy chemistry" that couldn't be broken.