TSN: Quarter point grades by Craig Button

Discussion in 'Montreal Canadiens' started by Monctonscout, Nov 24, 2015.

  1. smirob

    smirob Registered User

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    Care to factor in TOI in your discussion? Or is that just a meaningless stat?
     
  2. smirob

    smirob Registered User

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    Do you want to respond on this MS?

    Or no....
     
  3. Dog

    Dog Guest

    I would probably give Petry an A, the guy has been absolutely solid.
     
  4. Captain Subban

    Captain Subban Registered User

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    ES Points, ES TOI

    October
    Eller: 3 goals, 1 assist, 4 points, 143 minutes
    Fleischmann: 2 goals, 5 assists, 7 points, 161 minutes
    Mitchell: 5 goals, 3 assists, 8 points, 121 minutes
    Flynn: 1 goal, 2 assists, 3 points, 129 minutes
    Smith-Pelly: 1 goal, 3 assists, 4 points, 128 minutes

    November
    Eller: 3 goals, 0 assists, 3 points, 115 minutes
    Fleischmann: 5 goals, 3 assists, 8 points, 135 minutes
    Mitchell: 0 goals, 2 assists, 2 points, 86 minutes
    Flynn: 1 goal, 1 assist, 2 points, 101 minutes
    Smith-Pelly: 0 goals, 2 assists, 2 points, 99 minutes

    Overall Differences
    Fleischmann: 15 points, 296 minutes
    Eller: 7 points, 258 minutes
    Flynn: 5 points, 230 minutes
    Smith-Pelly: 6 points, 227 minutes
    Mitchell: 10 points, 207 minutes

    Flash and Eller have an 8 point difference with Fleischmann playing 38 more minutes.

    Eller and Flynn have a two point difference with Eller playing 28 more minutes.

    Eller and Smith-Pelly have a one point difference with Eller playing 31 more minutes.

    The Eller/Mitchell comparison speaks for itself.

    If your point was that it wasn't a meaningless stat, you're right. It really magnifies Eller's failure to outscore the fourth line at even strength!
     
  5. smirob

    smirob Registered User

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    [NHL][/NHL]
    No it proves my point that Eller is a third line winger, and should be evaluated as such.

    I find it funny that many have a hate on for Eller, typically they call him our 2nd line winger (to support their argument), yet don't mention Galchenyuks struggles to date.

    I like both Eller and Galchenyuk, they will turn things around I am sure.
    But currently they are on our 3rd line, we should re-adjust our expectations accordingly.
     
  6. Monsieur Patate

    Monsieur Patate Rebuilding since '93

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    Yeah, but Flash is playing more like a 5.5-6M cap hit player right now. Effin' strong 2-way play. Not the regular 2M UFA guy, heck even 4M would be cheap money for his efficiency right now.

    Props on him he worked very hard to come back in force. I don't know what happened with him last year but this year he's rejuvenated.
     
  7. LaP

    LaP Registered User

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    But who really change their stats or anything?

    Many people like me always said Eller is a good 3rd liner and that's it. Really the % of people who really believe he is a bonafide top 6 guy is marginal.

    I don't even know where this DD versus Eller battle started. Probably because some people said anyone including Eller could do around 45 points playing with Patch and DD would do better in a lesser role with less ice time and pressure. I've said it but i've said it in a sarcastic way like even a 3rd liner would do points playing with Patch. Frankly imo we were right. Patch will do his goals/points no matter what and the center playing with him will do a bunch of assists no matter what. Patch is a very underrated regular season player around here imo. People are now using empty net to diminish him ... And honestly the last time DD looked as good as this season was when he played with Cole and Patch 4 years ago. He battles hard, he finally shoots the puck on the net and pass the puck both side of the ice. Being the best player of his line in a reduced role helped him a lot. He's doing great.

    Back on Eller he is doing okay. He is learning a new position he never played at the pro level. They carry a 4th line player on their line and despite all the rhetorics some around here use carrying a 4th line player on an offensive line does affect stats over a long period of time specially with a young inexperienced center like AG. Using a higher than usual productive 4th line to say it doesn't matter is kind of weird to say the least.

    Ideally Eller would play on the 3rd line as a center. But for now he can do the job on the 2½nd line as a winger. We don't have better anyway. As a winger i don't care much about the number of assist he gets. As long as he scores 20-25 goals it's fine. Let's solve the RW problem first and stop saying Chuckie needs to polish a turd cause he is a 3rd overall pick. Saying that is stupid. There's a reason other teams doesn't play 4th liner on their 2nd line. Let's also give Eller a minimum of 40 games to learn his new position and then if it still doesn't work MB can try to trade Eller for a real winger. But getting two top 6 wingers via trade the same year is kind of unrealistic.

    It's a problem that should have been solved last year imo. I've been saying for 2 years that DD and Eller should both be 3rd line center and MB should make a choice and trade one fore a winger. But since we need to get a RW first since Semin did not work it might be a little bit hard to also trade Eller for a real winger. But first thing first we need a RW for this line. It's not normal that an AHLer can come 20 games into the season and offer the best performance by a RW on what should be the 2nd line technically speaking. That's what Ghetto just did.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
  8. MXD

    MXD Original #4

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    I think Button factors in salary, as absolutely else nothing justifies Desharnais being a full letter below Fleischmann.
     
  9. Monsieur Patate

    Monsieur Patate Rebuilding since '93

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    lol

    We're talking about assists and you come up with shot metrics. Awesome.

    But from these stats what you could point at isn't that Eller isn't getting assists because his linemates can't bury their chances, because technically an assist isn't coming from a shot attempt maybe half the time, right ? So what is the % of shot attempts that end up giving up assists compared to say, a PASS, which dosen't count on shot metrics (and therefore skews the balance in Eller's favor and not a guy like DD, who's more prone at not being the guy taking the shots on net).

    Another point you could make would be the absence in those stats of their RW (Semin, Byron, DSP), because y'know, having a good RWer with them would help them tremendously. Or perhaps their meaningless contribution is due in part in playing with Eller, which is more likely to shoot pucks at net from bad angles because he's simply lacking vision.

    I'd be curious to see pass attempts / pass completion ratios and mix them with shot metrics and points.
     
  10. Bryson

    Bryson #EugeneMolson

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    Terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Shame on you. You're like a little six year old always crying for attention and constantly needs to be corrected.

    Plekanec 18:06
    Desharnais 15:53
    Flynn 13:33
    Galchenyuk 12:13
    Eller 11:52

    On pace for 24 goals while playing 4th line minutes. Yup. Top six minutes my ass.

    If you didn't have rose colored glasses on you'd realize that having Eller in on that rush forced the Goalie to respect the pass and cheat just enough to create an opening for Flash. Get a clue.

    And how many goals has DD benefited from Flash and Weise taking loose pucks and going in and scoring? All this talk about Desharnais turning Fleischmann's career around is laughable. Fleischmann didn't improve because of DD. Fleischmann improved because of Fleischmann.
     
  11. Milhouse40

    Milhouse40 Registered User

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    SAT
    Calculation = (5 on 5): Team shots on goal + team missed shots + opponent blocked shots (excluding empty net). Also called Corsi for

    Assists come on a goal, goal comes from a shot attemps.
    SAT are those from all the player on the ice.

    When Eller is on the ice, there was 252 shot attempts toward the net from him and his linesmates. So even if DD doesn't shot and make a pass, that pass might results in a SAT....

    So you saying that Eller is shooting fomr everywhere and have more SAT than DD because Eller shoot more or have lack of vision is not true.

    Don't laugh at post who don't really get...
     
  12. Monctonscout

    Monctonscout Monctonscout

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    I didn't have those numbers, but I doubt those guys play more than Eller at ES. If they do it's not my a lot.
     
  13. FuzzyWuzzy

    FuzzyWuzzy I'm still alive

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    To me this post is indisputable. Eller is stinking it up. Cant even outproduce Torrey Mitchell while playing wing to Galchenyuk.
     
  14. Monctonscout

    Monctonscout Monctonscout

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    The Galchenyuk line started the year as #2 and that was the plan, but the Desharnais line has outplayed them pretty clearly and forced the coaching staff to give them more minutes. That's how hockey works at most levels...

    Plekanec was the top center last year and again this year, the only difference is he has Pcaioretty on his wing every game, last year it was only about 10-15%.
     
  15. smirob

    smirob Registered User

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    Ok so Eller is our 3rd line winger at this point?

    He's on pace for 24 goals, not good enough for a 3rd line winger?
     
  16. Monctonscout

    Monctonscout Monctonscout

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    Your numbers are wrong, Desharnais doesn't even have 15 minutes a game TOTAL let alone 15:53 at ES.

    Not sure how playing with Galchenyuk equates to 4th line minutes.

    They started the year as the 2nd line and got outplayed by the Desharnais line.

    It's rather quite funny to hear you not give Desharnais any credit for anything...Weise goes from a 4th liner to a guy on pace for 34 goals and Fleischmann goes from 27 points last year to a 56 point pace...yet their center deserves no credit for it...comical.
     
  17. smirob

    smirob Registered User

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    The DD line plays more than the Galchenyuk line at ES.

    You were the one who said Eller is getting top 6 minutes, which is false.
    It's a pretty easy stat to find.
     
  18. Monctonscout

    Monctonscout Monctonscout

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    First of all his pace is 22 goals, second of all, there is more to playing in the top 6 than just goals. Eller has poor vision which affects Galchenyuk's ability to score, he only has 2 ES goals in 22 games.

    I'd bet my house he won't score 20 as he always dips in Jan-March every year.
     
  19. Monctonscout

    Monctonscout Monctonscout

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    He did to start the year. Desharnais played 13:52 a game in October and that includes PP time which is around 2 minutes/game. I would estimate about 12/game at ES.
     
  20. :laugh:

    Plekanec 18:52
    Desharnais 14:59
    Flynn 12:07
    Galchenyuk 14:12
    Eller 13:34

    via NHL.com

    #Irony
     
  21. smirob

    smirob Registered User

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    Very good.....:handclap:
     
  22. smirob

    smirob Registered User

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    Perfect now we're all on the same page.
     
  23. 24g & 3 assist would be odd but respectable for a 3rd liner but I still think he is a problem for Galchenyuk (who by himself is underperforming) since he rarely do anything creative or smart in the offensive zone.
     
  24. smirob

    smirob Registered User

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    Well what are our options....

    Do you want Flash on Chuckys wing?
     
  25. Milhouse40

    Milhouse40 Registered User

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    Desharnais deserve credit for Desharnais' points. End of story.
    Just like Flash deserve credit for his own. But again, you guys ALWAYS think that Desharnais is the catalyst of everything, just like he was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO important to Pacioretty's success.

    Well, Pacioretty is on pace for 41 goals/ 74 points, career high away from Desharnais AND NOT playing in a sheltered offensive way. Yet, i heard you and thousand of Habs Fans saying for 3 years that Plekanec wouldn't be able to make Pacioretty produce like DD and that he and Desharnais had that "craaaaaazy chemistry" that couldn't be broken.
     

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