QMJHL Announces League-Wide Retirement of Crosby's #87

[BenchBrawl]

Maybe, Crosby would have been almost a year younger and just as dominant offensively. Maybe you go with Mario's size i guess.

But how was he better than Wayne who had a great WJC as a highlight?

Mario Lemieux was the safest prospect that ever existed—with perhaps Jean Béliveau but that's another era. There was no serious doubt that he was going to be a superstar. Yes, his size mattered a lot.

But even strictly from a skills standpoint, Mario already had all his skills in junior. It doesn't matter what age they were. Crosby never had that level of raw talent. We saw it in the NHL. Why would it be different in junior?

Gretzky had tons of doubters.

 

[seventieslord]

Maybe, Crosby would have been almost a year younger and just as dominant offensively. Maybe you go with Mario's size i guess.

But how was he better than Wayne who had a great WJC as a highlight?

Do you have the numbers handy? I'd be curious how much closer to Lemieux's dominance Crosby gets after adjusting for scoring levels.

 

[JackSlater]

I don't think that Lemieux was much more dominant in junior than Crosby was, if at all. Crosby seems to have been much more impressive if you compare their 16 and 17 age seasons. I don't think that Lemieux was clearly better than Crosby until he was 22. He was always more talented, but talent and actual level of play don't always align. Relative to age, I would say that Crosby is clearly better than anyone in QMJHL history, though things aren't usually judged relative to age.

 

[sr edler]

Work ethic, drama free, acting like you've been there before, never resting on your laurels.

People like some drama though. Personally I respect players like Lidström or late career Crosby, but they are simultaneously very boring. Markus Näslund also "acted like he had been there before" (even if he hadn't been).

I don't want to watch robots play hockey, I want a flawed someone who bleeds out his feelings and acts like a vengeful baby. Not all the time, like a tiresome circus, but when it's appropriate.

 

[tony d]

I'm vs. retiring of numbers in general but will congratulate Crosby on the honor. The guy's such a good player.

 

[ImporterExporter]

People like some drama though. Personally I respect players like Lidström or late career Crosby, but they are simultaneously very boring. Markus Näslund also "acted like he had been there before" (even if he hadn't been).

I don't want to watch robots play hockey, I want a flawed someone who bleeds out his feelings and acts like a vengeful baby. Not all the time, like a tiresome circus, but when it's appropriate.

Hey I get it. I know folks personally who hold the same opinion and outlook. And i totally respect that.

But at the end of the day, hockey players in general are so different than NFL, NBA and even MLB pro's. We have more than enough drama from those sports, especially the first 2 that I don't want to watch more of that shit during hockey games. I don't care if a player snipes a game winner from 50 feet out in OT in October. Acting like you just won the SC in the regular season is ridiculous to me. I don't care about tweets or who has the hottest bimbo on their arm.

I was a rambunctious youth. A class clown, but when it came to sports (I was a decent athlete) I always admired the silent dominators. The guys who let their play do the talking. Sakic was probably my favorite non Penguins player of my teenage years. Yzerman was up there as well. Watching those guys play, or Crosby for that matter was/is never boring in the grand scheme. Sure they didn't celebrate like lunatics or get caught at alcohol rage-fests post Cup runs. They didn't seek out the cameras. Just a personal preference I guess.

There is so much drama in the world today outside of sports. I'd rather see as little of it as possible when I get some time to enjoy a sport.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I don't think that Lemieux was much more dominant in junior than Crosby was, if at all. Crosby seems to have been much more impressive if you compare their 16 and 17 age seasons. I don't think that Lemieux was clearly better than Crosby until he was 22. He was always more talented, but talent and actual level of play don't always align. Relative to age, I would say that Crosby is clearly better than anyone in QMJHL history, though things aren't usually judged relative to age.

Agreed.

Which is why it was nuts to have people throw out Crosby's Q stats, er, rather point totals and conclude he wasn't even scratching the surface of best ever in the league. Crosby played 2 years, at age 16 and 17. He didn't play a 3rd or 4th year so obviously his raw totals were going to be lower.

At 16:

Crosby had 135 in 59
Mario had 96 in 64
-Tell me who was more impressive?

At 17:

Crosby had 168 in 62
Mario had 184 in 66
-Mario is marginally ahead of Sid based on per game average.

Now to be fair, I don't think for one second Sid was coming anywhere close to Mario's age 18 totals had Sid not been able to go pro, but acting like Sid is some distant memory among Q players all time is asinine. Do you really think Sid would have had lesser stats at 18/19 than Lafleur put up? Had Sid been able to play in the Q another 2 years he would have scored north of 400 points as an 18/19 year old. Easily.

 

[daver]

Agreed.

Which is why it was nuts to have people throw out Crosby's Q stats, er, rather point totals and conclude he wasn't even scratching the surface of best ever in the league. Crosby played 2 years, at age 16 and 17. He didn't play a 3rd or 4th year so obviously his raw totals were going to be lower.

At 16:

Crosby had 135 in 59
Mario had 96 in 64
-Tell me who was more impressive?

At 17:

Crosby had 168 in 62
Mario had 184 in 66
-Mario is marginally ahead of Sid based on per game average.

Now to be fair, I don't think for one second Sid was coming anywhere close to Mario's age 18 totals had Sid not been able to go pro, but acting like Sid is some distant memory among Q players all time is asinine. Do you really think Sid would have had lesser stats at 18/19 than Lafleur put up? Had Sid been able to play in the Q another 2 years he would have scored north of 400 points as an 18/19 year old. Easily.

Scoring was dramatically higher in the Q during Mario's time there. That being said, I would compare their draft seasons straight up with consideration for how far ahead of their respective peers they were. It is very comparable.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Scoring was dramatically higher in the Q during Mario's time there. That being said, I would compare their draft seasons straight up with consideration for how far ahead of their respective peers they were. It is very comparable.

Absolutely. Context matters.

 

[Staniowski]

Mario Lemieux was the safest prospect that ever existed—with perhaps Jean Béliveau but that's another era. There was no serious doubt that he was going to be a superstar. Yes, his size mattered a lot.

But even strictly from a skills standpoint, Mario already had all his skills in junior. It doesn't matter what age they were. Crosby never had that level of raw talent. We saw it in the NHL. Why would it be different in junior?

Gretzky had tons of doubters.

Gretzky was just as safe as Lemieux, maybe even more so. It's true that Gretzky had doubters, but the doubters didn't know what they were talking about.

----------------------------

Regarding Lemieux and Crosby - yes, Lemieux had talents that Crosby didn't; but Crosby also made up for it in other areas, like his work ethic.

 

[MadLuke]

Mario Lemieux scored 282 points in a Q league season, Crosby not even top 35 (has had less than half that many points), etc...

I feel like that quite the spin considering how much scoring moved in the Q over time.

Has any of those name had a more impressive 16-17 year's old season? Has a player get near 20 the less and less impressive those numbers get or at least not comparing apple to apple.

Mario Lemieux first season in the Q, he was not in the top 10 while Crosby was winning the scoring title

Lemieux first season:

Points
Rank	Player	Team	Points
1	Claude Verret	Trois-Rivieres	162
2	Pierre Rioux	Shawinigan	152
3	John Chabot	Sherbrooke	143
4	Claude Drouin	Trois-Rivieres	130
5	Jacques Sylvestre	Granby	120
6	Norman Lefrancois	Trois-Rivieres	116
7	Luc Dufour	Chicoutimi	115
8	Jean Gauthier	Hull	114
9	Eric Bernier	Chicoutimi	109
10	Daniel Campeau	Sherbrooke	108
10	Pierre Sevigny	Trois-Rivieres	108

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Second season, #3:

1	Pat LaFontaine	Verdun	234
2	Claude Verret	Trois-Rivieres	188
3	Mario Lemieux	Laval	184
4	Sylvain Turgeon	Hull	163
5	Paul Adey	Hull	162
6	Jean-Maurice Cool	Verdun	149
7	Roberto Lavoie	Chicoutimi	136
7	Benoit Doucet	Hull	136
9	Guy Pigeon	2 teams	133
10	Gerard Gallant	2 teams	128

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Third season, do 20% better than Lafontaine the year before, 54% lead over number 2

1	Mario Lemieux	Laval	282
2	Jacques Goyette	Laval	170
3	Claude Gosselin	Quebec	140
4	Claude Lefebvre	Quebec	135
5	Guy Rouleau	Longueuil	133
6	Sergio Momesso	Shawinigan	130
6	Francois Sills	Laval	130
8	Santino Pellegrino	Longueuil	124
8	Paul Gagne	Chicoutimi	124
10	Yves Courteau	Laval	120

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Crosby did lead the league in point is first year:

Points
Rank	Player	Team	Points
1	Sidney Crosby	Rimouski	135
2	Dany Roussin	Rimouski	117
3	Maxime Talbot	Gatineau	98
4	Jean-Michel Daoust	Gatineau	96
5	Benoit Mondou	Shawinigan	95
6	Pascal Pelletier	Shawinigan	91
7	Yannick Tifu	Rouyn-Noranda	90
8	Guillaume Fournier	2 teams	88
9	Francois-Pierre Guenette	Cape Breton	85
10	Michael Lambert	P.E.I.	84
10	Karl Gagne	Moncton	84

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

And is second year, 45% lead over number 2:

1	Sidney Crosby	Rimouski	168
2	Dany Roussin	Rimouski	116
3	Marc-Antoine Pouliot	Rimouski	114
4	Maxime Boisclair	Chicoutimi	108
5	David Desharnais	Chicoutimi	97
6	Stanislav Lascek	Chicoutimi	90
7	Alex Bourret	Lewiston	86
8	Alexandre Picard	Lewiston	85
8	Josh Hennessy	Quebec	85
10	Brent Aubin	Rouyn-Noranda	84
10	Philippe Dupuis	Rouyn-Noranda	84

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Same with Lafleur, only at 19 and last season did he won the league scoring title:

1967-68	16	Quebec Aces	QJHL	43	30	19	49
1968-69	17	Quebec Aces	QJHL	49	50	60	110		83
1969-70	18	Quebec Remparts	QMJHL	56	103	67	170		105
1970-71	19	Quebec Remparts	QMJHL	62	130	79	209		135

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

That said I would imagine that retirement is a combination of Crosby accepting to go and the Tanguay/Oceanic being more powerfull in the league than teams that do not exist anymore than purely legendary/merit/iconic base.

 

[sr edler]

I always admired the silent dominators.

Then I guess you just must have loved Annika Sörenstam. We've had arguably the best female golf player of all time here where I come from, but she's already largely forgotten (not technically of course) in the collective mind, in a local "greatest athletes of all time" sense, and it's partly because she was just infuriatingly robotic. Sure golf isn't the biggest sport ever, and certainly not the most grassroots sports ever, and it was female sports too which is smaller in scope, but still.

Sure Björn Borg was a robot too, but at least you could see in his eyes the crazy guy (he was in junior).

On the other hand we had a character in alpine skiing (Anja Pärson) who was thoroughly outgoing and she became very loved by the general public (I was not a big fan personally though). We also had a character in cross country skiing (Wassberg) who was almost a caricature/parody of the grumpy woodsman/outdoorsman with an accompanying big brown beard, and he also became a favorite on the other side of the spectrum.

I don't want to watch pre mission HAL 9000 play golf, I want to watch him arrive to the 18th hole on the verge of a nervous breakdown doubting his own capabilities because his ship is closing in on Jupiter and the monolith and he can't handle it.

Imagine watching 2001 but instead of HAL you have Sörenstam, and the ship is just sailing along through space . . . calm . . . as . . . a . . . cucumber. Who would want to watch that.

 

[daver]

I don't think that Lemieux was much more dominant in junior than Crosby was, if at all. Crosby seems to have been much more impressive if you compare their 16 and 17 age seasons. I don't think that Lemieux was clearly better than Crosby until he was 22. He was always more talented, but talent and actual level of play don't always align. Relative to age, I would say that Crosby is clearly better than anyone in QMJHL history, though things aren't usually judged relative to age.

Along with having a Top 10 skillset to go along with a rep for working on his game, Crosby may have been one of the most NHL ready prospects both physically and development-wise. The latter can be a big difference in explaining why he was as dominant as Mario in the Q but ultimately not as dominant in the NHL. He was being groomed for an NHL career from a very young age and was part of a development system that was a lot different than it was in Mario's time. I think McDavid also was ready to hit his prime from the get go too.

 

[JackSlater]

Along with having a Top 10 skillset to go along with a rep for working on his game, Crosby may have been one of the most NHL ready prospects both physically and development-wise. The latter can be a big difference in explaining why he was as dominant as Mario in the Q but ultimately not as dominant in the NHL. He was being groomed for an NHL career from a very young age and was part of a development system that was a lot different than it was in Mario's time. I think McDavid also was ready to hit his prime from the get go too.

I think that it was mostly about drive and work ethic. I don't think that anyone can question Crosby's work ethic, but it's pretty easy to do so regarding young Lemieux. It wouldn't surprise me if Crosby was just a lot closer to fulfilling his talent at that point.

 

[Voight]

Q has always been the weakest league

Anyhow this was clearly a marketing gimmick and I almost guarantee you if he had a more common number like 7, 10, 19 etc it would not have been retired. Unlikely anyone is going to wear 87 just because he did.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

when the 2087 birth years start entering the q, they’ll be sorry they did this.

 

[bobbyking]

Ridiculous.

Mario Lemieux scored 282 points in a Q league season, Crosby not even top 35 (has had less than half that many points).

Lafontaine (opps American - don't honor him), Lafleur, Robitaille, Hawerchuk, ... all have had more impressive seasons.

Careerwise in the Q...
HHOFers...

Mario Lemieux 562 points
Mike Bossy 532 points
Guy Carbonneau 435 points
Luc Robitaille 424 points
.
.
.
Sidney Crosby 293 points (not top 90).

The point: Crosby did not have one of the greatest seasons nor one of the greatest junior careers in the Q, but he had skill and projected greatness which he delivered on post-juniors. ARE JUNIORS TEAMS RETIRING POPULAR NHL SUPERSTARS OR... THE JUNIORS BEST?

Exactly what I thought. Except I'm not sure that he didnt have some of the best season s

 

[Big Phil]

For starters, it is a very unique number. Who else will wear #87 anyways? It isn't like it is number 3 or some low number that someone wears on every team. Not to mention this is an all-time great NHLer too who also had a splendid QMJHL career. I can distinctly remember the 2004-'05 season. The NHL is locked out and the London Knights' dominant season was the storyline, as well as what Crosby did. Plus, the way the schedule was worked that year he only missed 3 games for the World Juniors. Visiting teams ensured that he didn't miss coming to their barn because he was THE story of hockey that year.

I remember the year prior in 2004 when he did that wrap around lacrosse style goal behind the net in a blow out game. I liked it, even if it may have been running up the score. Heck, he was 16, so whatever. But the fact it was a story in the NHL tells you something.

I think Alex Lafreniere is going to be a fine talent in the NHL but as good of a year as he'll have they won't be watching him left right and centre in his draft year the way they did Crosby.

He had two unreal seasons in the QMJHL, has a unique number, is a unique and very high on the all-time list of players ever in the NHL. How is it bad that of all players it is him they pick?

 

[MS]

This is just really silly, and I imagine a class act like Crosby is a bit embarrassed by it.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Do you have the numbers handy? I'd be curious how much closer to Lemieux's dominance Crosby gets after adjusting for scoring levels.

QMJHL gpg in 83-84: 10.02
QMJHL gpg in 03-04: 6.72

Lemieux had 282 points in 70 games. Adjust the scoring levels and pro-rate Crosby's season to 70 games and he has 283 points.

Mario obviously became the better player ultimately, but it's hard to not say that Crosby's season was more impressive, especially since he was a year younger. This also seems to indicate Crosby had the best pre-draft juniors career ever.

EDIT: I used the wrong year for Crosby. Scoring in 04-05 appears to be 6.38 gpg. Which would make Crosby's adjusted total 298.