World Cup: QF: Uruguay vs. France, 7/6/2018

[le_sean]

Well Giroud sucks period, Griezman seems off this tournament (but he still has three goals to show for it) and while Mbappé has been the best of the three he clearly still is a work in progress.

I disagree about Giroud, he’s doing his job of winning balls in the air and holding as the centre forward. I agree about Griezmann, he’s been off.

 

[Eisen]

I'm a DDR-born 3rd generation Union Berlin fan who has long ago accepted that if we ever get even 1 season in the top flight, I will need to marry an american woman so that I can move back to Berlin for a full year without losing my greencard because it'll probably never happen again in my lifetime

But I enjoy Gladbach most of all BuLi1 clubs...as a kid, my uncle had many tapes from the 70s that he started collecting obsessively after reunification, watching those, I fell in love with Netzer & the BMG of his day...while Favre turned me onto the modern iteration & the immense respect I have for Eberl has kept me hooked. It also doesn't hurt that some of my friends who are working in the industry have passed through BMG in their careers or worked closely with them on certain projects & gushed about their experiences.

I think Hecking actually understands these gripes I have & if the three of us sat down over some beers in the offseason he might be the first to point out how these are things he wants to change in the club for next season...but in the heat of the moment those conservative-instincts will kick in & I dunno how much any of us can really consciously suppress instincts that are buried so deep in our psyches. As Hecking has been coaching for ages with the "protect the result" mindset...that goes hand in hand with trusting more experienced players who are less error prone & less spectacular...rather than the "secure the result" mindset that fits more with trusting youth & creativity to play proactively.

And I see the exact same thing happening with Tabarez wanting to play a more proactive & youth-oriented style, as they showed before the tourney, but then when the pressure kicked in & instincts took over he reverted to the "tried & tested" & made the "safe" decision; which ultimately prevented his team from having a real chance to play with France...like they had the talent to potentially do, if he had trusted himself & those kids to stick with the "less Uruguayan" style of play that they showed in the build-up to the tourney.

Getting a green card, you lucky, lucky bastard.
I see it, too. I just can't believe that a coach is deep down like that. It's strange. They have staff, they have millions of opinions to fall back on. They often work all their life in the sport. It's just so hard to believe they are ignorant of what everyone tells them. Let's see if Jogi can do it.

 

[Turtleneck Plek]

I disagree about Giroud, he’s doing his job of winning balls in the air and holding as the centre forward. I agree about Griezmann, he’s been off.

Giroud wasn't nearly as effective today as he was against Argentina tho. He's great as a pivot for one-two's when France play a fast build-up game on the counter like they did against Argentina. However, when playing possession football, I think France would be better suited with a creative player like Fekir instead, someone who can combine and thread through the final third.

Plus, Giroud has always been great as a supersub, he comes on around the 65th minute when the defense has had to deal with the fast, creative players all game and brings a different element that they cannot handle. Great when you need to switch things up for a goal.

 

[gary69]

I disagree about Giroud, he’s doing his job of winning balls in the air and holding as the centre forward. I agree about Griezmann, he’s been off.

Giroud didn't win almost any balls in the air today and couldn't hold on to ball much. Even when he did, it didn't lead to anything. Since he's so slow and not a good passer and therefore can't get to those won balls himself, he would have to win the header almost perfectly for it to land at his teammate in a useful position.

That said, it's still somewhat useful strategy because he nevertheless ties defenders to him and thus opens room for other French players. No point changing the system at this late stage of the tournament.

 

[cgf]

Back in Euro 92 when Graham Taylor replaced Lineker with Alam Smith against Sweden, I heard for the first time the proposition that when under pressure, coaches will always fall back on their true beliefs.

While that notion hasn't held true on certain occasions it mostly does.

I also think that once a coach fears for their job they expend so much energy defending themselves they tend to lose their ability to see the woods for the trees.

I haven't heard that said before, but it just makes too much sense for me & I've noticed that pattern far too often. Watching Hecking at BMG is just the most clear example of it that springs to mind for me because I felt like I was watching the exact same struggle between the Gladbach style that Hecking was trying to adopt & his own conservative instincts play out in match after match.

BMG would start off playing beautiful...as though Favre had never left...and then if they'd go ahead, suddenly they'd fall deep & stop trying to string passes together, in favor of a much more direct style that gave the ball (& the initiative) away immediately. Forcing BMG into the (unaccustomed to them) position of being the team parking the bus & hoping to connect on a long ball counters to secure the result. Which time after time led to equalizers after gladbach had already ceded all momentum & any hopes of victory without rare late match heroics from their stars.

It was like watching a greek tragedy about a man's inability to let go of his past dooming him to never get to embrace his beautiful new future.

 

[Suiteness]

How are these people so damn fast?

 

[Eisen]

Back in Euro 92 when Graham Taylor replaced Lineker with Alam Smith against Sweden, I heard for the first time the proposition that when under pressure, coaches will always fall back on their true beliefs.

While that notion hasn't held true on certain occasions it mostly does.

I also think that once a coach fears for their job they expend so much energy defending themselves they tend to lose their ability to see the woods for the trees.

Still seems strange. Most fans I know have developed their understanding of the game since the 70s (my peer group, that's who I mostly talk to personally).
I think a big part plays that it's hard to say no to a guy that has been with you for years and was to a degree successful with you. Can't explain it all, though.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Glad that diving Latin Mpabbe got carded. Shameful stuff from the South American

 

[cgf]

Unlike many I actually see the unspectacular way France dispatches its opponent these days as one of their strengths. I know that people will moan about how they're not playing beautifully and too defensive, but the most attractive side almost never wins a tournament. Organization always beats creativity in this sport.

I'm curious about how true this still is as I don't think this "truism" actually holds up anymore. We saw the teams who played the most attractive football winning every WC & Euro from 2008-2014, and the French at the turn of the century where one of the more attractive teams at the time...albeit I have to admit through gritted teeth that I enjoyed the way the f***ing dutch played a lot more in 98 & there were other teams I would argue were more attractive than those french as well.

Yes, 2002 was hideous all around, what happened in 2004 was a travesty for football, Italy 2006 inspired little romance, and 2016 saw France defeat us by parking the bus only to be defeated by Portugal's parked bus. But I feel like this has been less true since the rule changes & bosman ruling started the trend at club level towards the top players playing on more cohesive ball-dominating sides than the destroy & trust our starpower strategem of the great AC Milan sides of the late 80s/early 90s.

So if this tourney is won by Croatia, France, Brazil or Belgium, then again I think we'll have to admit that one of the most attractive & skillful sides claimed this tourney rather than one of the sides that seeks to destroy their way to glory like Italy or Greece have.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

France dominated but how much was that on Uruguay playing poorly?

Also dat save by the French goalie 0_0

 

[le_sean]

This French team works as a unit. The three attackers work well as a unit and so does the midfield. This isn’t like 2006 where Zidane did everything offensively.

Also impressed by Pavard, first time really watching him is this tournament.

 

[cgf]

Getting a green card, you lucky, lucky bastard.
I see it, too. I just can't believe that a coach is deep down like that. It's strange. They have staff, they have millions of opinions to fall back on. They often work all their life in the sport. It's just so hard to believe they are ignorant of what everyone tells them. Let's see if Jogi can do it.

lol I've been in the US since I was a kid and always spent 2/3rds of the year stateside growing up. If not for two arrests for marijuana possession (less than a gram each time) when I was younger I would have gotten dual citizenship long ago, but alas here I am relying upon an eventual american wife (or child) for my citizenship whenever cheeto gets so upset with Angie that he tries to deport me to

And they do, which is why I'm confident that Hecking truly believes this is something he wants to change in the team, but in the match, when the pressure takes over, he is ultimately the head coach. Who's going to tell him that he's making the wrong substitution or that he said the wrong things during his halftime talk?

...just going to ignore that Jogi bit because I am still way too mad that he still has his job...

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I'm curious about how true this still is as I don't think this "truism" actually holds up anymore. We saw the teams who played the most attractive football winning every WC & Euro from 2008-2014, and the French at the turn of the century where one of the most attractive teams at the time...albeit I have to admit through gritted teeth that I enjoyed the way the ****ing dutch played more in 98. Yes 2002 was hideous all around, what happened in 2004 was a travesty for football, Italy 2006 inspired little romance, and 2016 saw France defeat us by parking the bus only to be defeated by Portugal's parked bus.

But I feel like this has been less true since the rule changes & bosman ruling started the trend at club level towards the top players playing on more cohesive ball-dominating sides than the destroy & trust our starpower strategem of the great AC Milan sides of the late 80s/early 90s. So if this tourney is won by Croatia, France, Brazil or Belgium, then again I think we'll have to admit that one of the most attractive & skillful sides claimed this tourney rather than one of the sides that seeks to destroy their way to glory like Italy or Greece have.

We wouldn't have won in 2014 if we hadn't ground out the wins vs France and vs Argentina (games where we didn't really have many chances to score from open play). This France side are the perfect example of a team that prioritizes defensive solidity - in spite of the 4-3 vs Argentina which was more accident than planned - but has enough firepower to generate offense when needed. Defense alone isn't enough, but you won't win the World Cup without the ability to play a compact defensive game and win close, tight matches.

 

[Eisen]

lol I've been in the US since I was a kid and always spent 2/3rds of the year stateside growing up. If not for two arrests for marijuana possession (less than a gram each time) when I was younger I would have gotten dual citizenship long ago, but alas here I am relying upon an eventual american wife (or child) for my citizenship whenever cheeto gets so upset with Angie that he tries to deport me to

And they do, which is why I'm confident that Hecking truly believes this is something he wants to change in the team, but in the match, when the pressure takes over, he is ultimately the head coach. Who's going to tell him that he's making the wrong substitution or that he said the wrong things during his halftime talk?

...just going to ignore that Jogi bit because I am still way too mad that he still has his job...

Please help Obi Wan Jogi, you're my only hope.
A basically American (for all intents and purposes regarding watching Bundesliga) Union fan. That's a strange combination. Can you follow the club? I hardly get to see any games.

 

[cgf]

We wouldn't have won in 2014 if we hadn't ground out the wins vs France and vs Argentina (games where we didn't really have many chances to score from open play). This France side are the perfect example of a team that prioritizes defensive solidity - in spite of the 4-3 vs Argentina which was more accident than planned - but has enough firepower to generate offense when needed. Defense alone isn't enough, but you won't win the World Cup without the ability to play a compact defensive game and win close, tight matches.

Well sure. Not even Pep...who, if I remember your comments during his time with Bayern correctly, is the worst...would argue with the need for a strong defensive base to build out from; thus all of the money he has spent on defenders & keepers. But it's a lot harder to stumble your way to a title nowadays just by defending than it is by trying to build something on top of that defensive foundation.

So I'm not really sure how this affects the truism about organization & solidity beating creativity & skill...especially when the teams who have won lately have done so with both, but more of them have been defined by their creativity rather than their solidity

 

[Turtleneck Plek]

This French team works as a unit. The three attackers work well as a unit and so does the midfield. This isn’t like 2006 where Zidane did everything offensively.

Also impressed by Pavard, first time really watching him is this tournament.

Changing one player does not mean the team cannot function as a unit, even if the profile is different.

Anyhow, yes Pavard has been good. He got caught flatfooted by Laxalt a few times early in the game, but his age hasn't been showing at all, he's been calm and steady, especially for a player used to play CB.

 

[Evilo]

Little bummed so I'll keep it short. Great win by France. I wish them luck. Griezmann is now Uruguayan so maybe I'll root for France to win it all. Not our best game but not our worst. Cavani would have made a difference but not sure the outcome would have been different. Congratz Evilo!

Yeah, thanks, but I don't feel like I played a role

 

[Evilo]

Giroud didn't win almost any balls in the air today and couldn't hold on to ball much. Even when he did, it didn't lead to anything. Since he's so slow and not a good passer and therefore can't get to those won balls himself, he would have to win the header almost perfectly for it to land at his teammate in a useful position.

That said, it's still somewhat useful strategy because he nevertheless ties defenders to him and thus opens room for other French players. No point changing the system at this late stage of the tournament.

Giroud should have had an assist for his header to an all alone Mbappe.

 

[CharlesPuck]

Giroud should have had an assist for his header to an all alone Mbappe.

Mbappe didnt realize how much space he had. Tried to force a header when he had time to bring it down and knock it in.

 

[CharlesPuck]

And for everyone that says Giroud sucks and what not, they clearly don't understand what he gives France.

A large target upfront, who can pass the ball well and forces defenders to mark him. His presence allows for more space for Mbappe and Griezman and he can shoot pretty well with his left foot. No, he isnt the fastest and can't take on defenders the best, but he is wonderful in the role France needs him to be.

 

[illpucks]

Such bs that Cavani didn't play. Uruguay win and advance to face Belgium if he plays. Very easily best player on Uruguay.

 

[Harry22]

Such bs that Cavani didn't play. Uruguay win and advance to face Belgium if he plays. Very easily best player on Uruguay.

Lol.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Such bs that Cavani didn't play. Uruguay win and advance to face Belgium if he plays. Very easily best player on Uruguay.

What's BS? He was hurt it's not like Brazil injured him or Fifa banned him. Plus there's no guarantee and he's definitely not their best player much less easily.

 

[Harry22]

What's BS? He was hurt it's not like Brazil injured him or Fifa banned him. Plus there's no guarantee and he's definitely not their best player much less easily.

Plus to say they would have beaten France with Cavani is a big statement. France as a whole is the better side even with Cavani playing. Would the outcome been different? Maybe but we won’t know. The better side won today.

 

[Hadoop]

I can't believe in Belgium until I see them beat a big team. They've just been eliminated by such unimpressive sides at their previous tourneys and have done nothing so far dissuade me from my pessimism about them at this tourney. So I have to have Croatia ahead of them in the top 3 with France & Brazil.

How about now?