Q&A With Holland

[Bench]

Two reasons. 1) The reaction of those using such phrases is a culmination of dealing with the same posters posting the same comments in almost every thread. It gets wearing. 2) You don't see it because you largely agree. Not suggesting deliberate blindness on your part, rather that human nature happens, and we all are influenced by our biases....

I agree with the critics of the thread, yes. But I don't see "anger" at all. Where is it? What words were strung together that were angry or uppity?

Don't you think labeling the opposing viewpoint as those emotional tones completely cuts the knees out from discussion?

 

[lomekian]

OMG. The sky is falling again. Ken Holland went and said something.

It tells more about readers basic view if everything Kenny ever says is always turned somewhat negative message.

Negative people will see negative messages overall and vise versa.

This.

I think KH no longer has a free pass, but hasn't been as disastrous as others do. But that's because I think the streak is worth chasing, because if we pass the record, no-one's gonna catch it while there is a salary cap, and ultimately that will be as cherished as one more cup in the long run. That and they fact that unless you are bad enough to know you can't make a playoff run with a little bit of luck/form/timing that you might as well try as well as you can every season.

Others see things differently, and because they have already passed judgement on kH, everything possible can be re-interpreted to re-enforce that judgement.

The real trouble is with tweets like the one quoted which deliberately cherry pick things out of context to cause trouble.

 

[lomekian]

I agree with the critics of the thread, yes. But I don't see "anger" at all. Where is it? What words were strung together that were angry or uppity?

Don't you think labeling the opposing viewpoint as those emotional tones completely cuts the knees out from discussion?

The person who used those words already apologised for doing so. There was some emotive language used by the usual suspects - Suggesting the GM is 'Gutless' might be seen as uppity?. And as I already stated in the post you responded to, its a cumulative effect of so many other threads with endless complaints from the same people that meld into one after a while. If I see a poster that has been vociferous in partially unfounded or at least very selective criticism of KH in 85% of all topics on the board, it is perhaps possible that some of the memory of those recent criticisms bleeds into a response to a less hysterical critical post in any given thread, no?

 

[Winger98]

This.

I think KH no longer has a free pass, but hasn't been as disastrous as others do. But that's because I think the streak is worth chasing, because if we pass the record, no-one's gonna catch it while there is a salary cap, and ultimately that will be as cherished as one more cup in the long run. That and they fact that unless you are bad enough to know you can't make a playoff run with a little bit of luck/form/timing that you might as well try as well as you can every season.

Others see things differently, and because they have already passed judgement on kH, everything possible can be re-interpreted to re-enforce that judgement.

The real trouble is with tweets like the one quoted which deliberately cherry pick things out of context to cause trouble.

Ask Chicago and St. Louis fans how cherished their 28 and 25 year playoff streaks are and compared to a cup win. If we had missed the playoffs for a year or two but still had four cups, no one would care about making the playoffs X years in a row.

 

[Bench]

The person who used those words already apologised for doing so. There was some emotive language used by the usual suspects - Suggesting the GM is 'Gutless' might be seen as uppity?. And as I already stated in the post you responded to, its a cumulative effect of so many other threads with endless complaints from the same people that meld into one after a while. If I see a poster that has been vociferous in partially unfounded or at least very selective criticism of KH in 85% of all topics on the board, it is perhaps possible that some of the memory of those recent criticisms bleeds into a response to a less hysterical critical post in any given thread, no?

If you want to keep threads about their content, then I suggest you do that with your own actions. I say that as a fan of good discussion and a moderator. You don't like Ken Holland biases bleeding into every thread? Well, sure, that's fair I suppose. But he's hockey related. And this is also a Ken Holland thread. The behavior of forum members? It's not hockey related. And it's against the rules to comment on.

We don't moderate negative opinions unless they are off-topic. We don't moderate opinions at all. Unless those opinions are about the people posting here.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Ask Chicago and St. Louis fans how cherished their 28 and 25 year playoff streaks are and compared to a cup win. If we had missed the playoffs for a year or two but still had four cups, no one would care about making the playoffs X years in a row.

And? We have four cups and 25 years straight. Of course STL would think differently, they don't have a Cup. And wasn't Chicago's streak back closer to the O6 era? We are currently in the 25 year streak where we were a prohibitive favorite for 20 years, the league changed team building in a huge way, and the closest team to our streak in an era where half the teams make the playoffs is like 9.

But I don't understand why it's how cherished compared to a cup win. We have four of those. We easily could have had 5.

 

[njx9]

1) Holland never said he sucks. In fact, if you read that quote, he didn't use one single critical word towards Nyquist (or Tatar). I'll be clear, this actively pisses me off because its not the first time I have seen complete fabrications used to criticize Holland on this board. Stop twisting his ****ing words to push your personal vendetta.

And if you'd spent more than a third of a second diving for the submit button, and actually followed the discussion, you'd know that's not at all what I was arguing, and was a placeholder for a completely different discussion. But thanks for playing. I hope all that jerking didn't hurt your knee.

2) What's wrong with calling out an under-performing player for under-performing? These are grown ass man that don't need to be coddled. Everyone expected more from Nyquist, including Nyquist.

Yup, that's a great motivator. Always works, in every sport. Or something. Really makes the player want to play harder for you, or stick around later. Great strategy.

How can the GM saying that a players production reduced due to a combination of a non contract year, reduced ice-time, a new coach and lower points all round be seen as bashing his player?

Jesus, some of you lot are obsessed!

"We already paid you, so you got lazy and played like piss. But I mean that in the nicest possible way." It's almost like you didn't actually want to think about what you were saying before accusing me of something.

But nothing said was controversial. The contract was a tiny, speculative part of a long answer. And output regression after a big new contract is one of the most widely seen and accepted probabilities in most careers, most sports and most NHL teams.

This is utterly non-responsive to my comment and I have no idea why you quoted me.

 

[Dotter]

People mad at Holland for calling a spade a spade. Lol.

Here's a fun fact. Last year Abdekader was worth his new contract more than Nqyist was worth his. But shhhhhh... let's not talk about that. Lets roast KH for being honest.

 

[Winger98]

And? We have four cups and 25 years straight. Of course STL would think differently, they don't have a Cup. And wasn't Chicago's streak back closer to the O6 era? We are currently in the 25 year streak where we were a prohibitive favorite for 20 years, the league changed team building in a huge way, and the closest team to our streak in an era where half the teams make the playoffs is like 9.

But I don't understand why it's how cherished compared to a cup win. We have four of those. We easily could have had 5.

That's my point. The only reason the streak matters is because we won the cups. The streak in and of itself is like a participation award for showing up for 25 years. The streak and a cup win should not be lumped together in any sort of equivalency.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Guys, Nyquist is a big boy, he doesn't need a bunch of forum-goers rushing to his defense. He's being paid millions of dollars a year to play a game alongside the best players in the world, I should hope he can handle his GM saying he needs to play better.

 

[Frk It]

sooooooooooooooooooo switching gears for a second.

-I liked the comments on Blashill. They were critical but also showed their is expected improvement this upcoming season. I wonder what his leash is like?

-I liked the comment on Holland saying he wants to see Z going from having to play 200 feet to 180 feet. That is an indication to me that they are having discussions about ways to conserve him, and that hopefully means they will not lean on him as heavily this year.

-I like the commitment to playing Larkin in the middle. Very important for his development, and they need to take the training wheels off.

 

[Frk It]

Guys, Nyquist is a big boy, he doesn't need a bunch of forum-goers rushing to his defense. He's being paid millions of dollars a year to play a game alongside the best players in the world, I should hope he can handle his GM saying he needs to play better.

Every single person on here thinks he needs to be better. That was not the issue.

 

[chances14]

so this 100% confirms what most of us already knew. playoff streak is #1 priority. stanley cup is secondary

 

[Dotter]

so this 100% confirms what most of us already knew. playoff streak is #1 priority. stanley cup is secondary

Under the circumstances, that's exactly the way it should be. Mr. I deserves more than to see his heart-and-soul hockey club being bottom dwellers before he passes. He deserves to see the best this team can be and enjoy ever minute of it. That is what the man deserves. It is inconsiderate and selfish to think otherwise.

 

[Claypool]

so this 100% confirms what most of us already knew. playoff streak is #1 priority. stanley cup is secondary

Holland has echoed these sentiments the past three seasons. The team is in a transition; Getting younger while remaining competitive and building through the draft. This isn't a new revelation. He's stated several times this team isn't going through a rebuild and tanking.

 

[Ezekial]

Yup, that's a great motivator. Always works, in every sport. Or something. Really makes the player want to play harder for you, or stick around later. Great strategy.

Yup, after Holland "bashed" Mantha he totally fizzed last AHL playoffs and was super sad about it. This isn't Pee-Wees.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Holland has echoed these sentiments the past three seasons. The team is in a transition; Getting younger while remaining competitive and building through the draft. This isn't a new revelation. He's stated several times this team isn't going through a rebuild and tanking.

Yeah the Wings new top line center is only 32, and they went out and signed a 32 year old winger, and a 34 year old 4th line grinder.

Bring on the youth movement baby!!!!!!!!

The master plan is almost complete.

2-3 years from now, Helm, Gator, Ericsson and Nielsen will all be in their primes and ready to contend for the cup again.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

Yeah the Wings new top line center is only 32, and they went out and signed a 32 year old winger, and a 34 year old 4th line grinder.

Bring on the youth movement baby!!!!!!!!

The master plan is almost complete.

2-3 years from now, Helm, Gator, Ericsson and Nielsen will all be in their primes and ready to contend for the cup again.

Maybe, but they need better prospects today for that to happen.

 

[lomekian]

Ask Chicago and St. Louis fans how cherished their 28 and 25 year playoff streaks are and compared to a cup win. If we had missed the playoffs for a year or two but still had four cups, no one would care about making the playoffs X years in a row.

Yeah...but we won the cup 4 times already in that streak....so a massive difference

And given that in the cap era the wings are the only team to have a major streak, I think the significance will rise.

Yup, that's a great motivator. Always works, in every sport. Or something. Really makes the player want to play harder for you, or stick around later. Great strategy.

Entirely depends on the individual in any context. In this context in particularly its regarding a player who the organisation wants to take on more of a leadership role, while the player is increasingly deferring to team-mates. Some people respond more to constructive criticism than praise. In any context. I do, for the most part, and I'm not exactly hard boiled.

"We already paid you, so you got lazy and played like piss. But I mean that in the nicest possible way." It's almost like you didn't actually want to think about what you were saying before accusing me of something.

If only he had said that, eh? And if only the bit you've chosen to be interpreted as such was in isolation rather than a minority part in a much wider range of contributing factors outlined by the interviewee. Can you not even acknowledge that you are focusing on what is at best one of 4 or 5 factors outlined by the GM?

This is utterly non-responsive to my comment and I have no idea why you quoted me.

You described it as a foot in mouth moment. I was pointing out why, in my opinion, it wasn't.

 

[lomekian]

That's my point. The only reason the streak matters is because we won the cups. The streak in and of itself is like a participation award for showing up for 25 years. The streak and a cup win should not be lumped together in any sort of equivalency.

Perhaps, but that depends on your perspective. On the whole evidence shows that maintaining a 20 year + streak is on balance a lot harder than winning a cup, even before the cap era. Of course, the Wings streak is much more important for the cup wins, but that makes the streak we are currently on all the more special and worthy of attempting to regenerate the roster while maintaining.

Of course, it is less likely, on balance that the wings will win another cup without missing the playoffs than it is that they will do so with a bit of a tank. But the probability to my mind is not so much greater as to invalidate the attempts to build on the current streak, avec cups, as to win another without dropping the streak would be the greater and more historic achievement. And although harder, it is certainly not impossible.

Though I'll concede the contract balance at present isn't great and may ultimately cause the streak to end in the not too distant future.

 

[lomekian]

sooooooooooooooooooo switching gears for a second.

-I liked the comments on Blashill. They were critical but also showed their is expected improvement this upcoming season. I wonder what his leash is like?

-I liked the comment on Holland saying he wants to see Z going from having to play 200 feet to 180 feet. That is an indication to me that they are having discussions about ways to conserve him, and that hopefully means they will not lean on him as heavily this year.

-I like the commitment to playing Larkin in the middle. Very important for his development, and they need to take the training wheels off.

You and I are on the same page on all three of these, which is principally why I thought it was a worthwhile interview.

 

[Claypool]

Yeah the Wings new top line center is only 32, and they went out and signed a 32 year old winger, and a 34 year old 4th line grinder.

Bring on the youth movement baby!!!!!!!!

The master plan is almost complete.

2-3 years from now, Helm, Gator, Ericsson and Nielsen will all be in their primes and ready to contend for the cup again.

Dylan Larkin (20), Anthony Mantha (21), Andreas Athanasiou (22), Riley Sheahan (24), Alexey Marchenko (24), Petr Mrazek (24), Tomas Tatar (25), Gustav Nyquist (26) Danny DeKeyser (26).

 

[jkutswings]

Dylan Larkin (20), Anthony Mantha (21), Andreas Athanasiou (22), Riley Sheahan (24), Alexey Marchenko (24), Petr Mrazek (24), Tomas Tatar (25), Gustav Nyquist (26) Danny DeKeyser (26).

Two of the first three names you listed likely won't even start the season on the roster, and let's not pretend that Detroit suddenly has all its assets tied up in players in their prime and younger, with flexibility to continue to build on said youth movement.

Yes, there are some younger players, but the Wings are still very much tied to several overpaid and overextended veterans, and this offseason has been dominated by veteran additions.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

This is my rough take on what they are thinking for the top 6

Tatar/Vanek-Larkin-Nyquist/Abby
Zetterberg-Nielsen-Nyquist/Abby

So if it was configured like this:

Tatar-Larkin-Abby
Zetterberg-Nielsen-Nyquist

That would have both Tatar and Nyquist in the top 6, and I actually kid of personally like those lines.

I would flip Nyquist and Tatar in that bottom setup. Allows Nyquist to be the playmaker while Larkin grows at center and keeps his shooting mindset. Also puts Tatar in the money spot of being the big shooter on a line with our best two playmakers. I think it balances those lines better when you put both guys in their more preferred roles.

Not a huge fan of Holland discussing internal business as often as he has lately. Maybe he really is preparing for Jimmy D's spot. I mean we all know that last season was a disappointment, but that is a discussion better left behind closed doors or in the other points he was at first addressing. Even with the question asked he doesn't need to bring up the money and contract status. He has avoided it on tough questions about Cleary, Ericsson, Sammy and Kindl recently... Heck he didn't really open up on his disappointment in Weiss until he was no longer in he organization. Then again Holland is constantly ripped on for his bland interview answers that seem read off a prepared piece of paper... We ask for honestly a lot and here is an example of why you don't need to give it all the time if it really serves no purpose and I don't think this really did serve a large enough person to take that dig. Their is a lot of substance here in the rest of the article, but Ken Holland knows better than to put that out there in the Nyquist discussion. Hope he apologizes to him at the beginning of camp.