Provorov - what's wrong?

[SolidSnakeUS]

I'd still take Provorov over Werenski, although it's really close. They're both great.

Werenski I think has a better defined offensive game, but I think Provy is much better all around.

 

[Curufinwe]

If Werenski's minutes were too different to be a fair comparison, maybe compare him to the guy who played on the same pairing as Provorov for most of last season (on his off-side no less).

 

[Striiker]

Sanheim outscored Provorov by 30 ESP to 24 in 223 fewer ES minutes.

And outscored him 5 PPP to 2 in 43 fewer PP minutes.

Sanheim got 2 years at $3.25m.

Feel free to use these talking points in negotiations, Chuck.

Good points.

On top of that, as I said in another thread recently, if you give Provorov the same cap percentage of what Couturier and Ghost got on their 6 year deals, it would be almost exactly $5m.

I see no way that someone could argue that he's worth more than they were.

 

[Magua]

Ivan is worth more because they propped him up in #1 minutes and implicitly told him he's worth more. I'm all for more evenhanded takes, but he has all the leverage he needs, even if that leverage dwindles in the coming years as usage (hopefully!) gets more evenly spread.

Couturier was also 1 year short of breaking out as our best ES center when he signed. Ghost was coming off a putrid year, and we know he wasn't (isn't) viewed as a top pair player. Hell, he was a scratch.

 

[Striiker]

Ivan is worth more because they propped him up in #1 minutes and implicitly told him he's worth more. I'm all for more evenhanded takes, but he has all the leverage he needs, even if that leverage dwindles in the coming years as usage (hopefully!) gets more evenly spread.

Couturier was also 1 year short of breaking out as our best ES center when he signed. Ghost was coming off a putrid year, and we know he wasn't (isn't) viewed as a top pair player. Hell, he was a scratch.

Leverage for what? This isn't arbitration where each side needs to make an argument. Fletcher can just tell him what he's actually worth based on how he plays, not the incorrect perception of two coaches Fletcher decided weren't good enough to run this team.

Also, what Couturier was about to do has nothing to do with what he got in that contract and the Ghost contract situation is a PERFECT comparison for Provorov. It shows that having a great year and then bad year in a contract year, as both of them did, makes a massive impact on what you get.

 

[Magua]

Leverage for what? This isn't arbitration where each side needs to make an argument. Fletcher can just tell him what he's actually worth based on how he plays, not the incorrect perception of two coaches Fletcher decided weren't good enough to run this team.

Also, what Couturier was about to do has nothing to do with what he got in that contract and the Ghost contract situation is a PERFECT comparison for Provorov. It shows that having a great year and then bad year in a contract year, as both of them did, makes a massive impact on what you get.

They don't make their arguments to a neutral 3rd party, but they certainly make it to one another. I really doubt Fletcher is coming from the angle of Provorov not being a top pair player. And I really doubt AV won't use him in similar fashion. We can make a distinction between "inflated" and "incorrect."

Couturier signed a bridge deal first. Then he signed -- in a master stroke by Ronald -- his 3rd contract 1 year before his 2nd expired. To that point, he was firmly entrenched behind at least Giroux on the depth chart and hadn't even paced for 40 points yet. We're talking the dark days of the 3Couturier War.

I am a Ghost fan. You won't see me disagree with saying Provorov only truly performed like a #1 in the half season paired with Ghost, who was the one who garnered Norris votes. But they have never been held in the same regard by the organization. Provorov's down year saw a career high in minutes, not multiple healthy scratches; if anything, his value mostly self-corrected from the absurdity of last summer. Being used like a #1 is a negotiating standpoint. Especially when Ghost was already signed 3 months earlier in his contract year. And in a different RFA climate.

 

[renberg]

Sam chimes in.

I'm not interested in an RFA holding out; especially with a new coach and system being put into play. If he's going to pull this stuff after the season that he had last year, I'd call Toronto to see what the Flyers would have to add in order to get Marner or chat with the Bruins about McAvoy since he's holding out as well. The intent of the CBA was for the big contracts to be doled out to players once they hit UFA.
If the CBA was negotiated with the intent that RFAs were going to get money like Matthews got and Marner wants, the entire CBA would have been written differently. If Provorov and his agent want Trouba money and term, they can wait until they're going towards UFA like Trouba did.
This entire situation smells like agents blowing smoke into the ears of their clients. Fletcher is being tested here. He should hold firm on a deal similar to Werenski and advertise what he has done to the press. If that doesn't get it done, do nothing.
Provorov getting to being a holdout would end his time here. If he goes that route, when he returned, every mistake that he would make would cause the fans to come down on him. Philly fans don't take well to this type of stuff. The Flyers have always been overly fair with their contracts.

 

[Striiker]

They don't make their arguments to a neutral 3rd party, but they certainly make it to one another. I really doubt Fletcher is coming from the angle of Provorov not being a top pair player. And I really doubt AV won't use him in similar fashion. We can make a distinction between "inflated" and "incorrect."

Couturier signed a bridge deal first. Then he signed -- in a master stroke by Ronald -- his 3rd contract 1 year before his 2nd expired. To that point, he was firmly entrenched behind at least Giroux on the depth chart and hadn't even paced for 40 points yet. We're talking the dark days of the 3Couturier War.

I am a Ghost fan. You won't see me disagree with saying Provorov only truly performed like a #1 in the half season paired with Ghost, who was the one who garnered Norris votes. But they have never been held in the same regard by the organization. Provorov's down year saw a career high in minutes, not multiple healthy scratches. Being used like a #1 is a negotiating standpoint.

I think we're talking about two different things right now... unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you're saying how you believe Fletcher will debate Provorov's value, while I'm instead talking about how I believe Provorov's actual value should be determined.

When I said "I see no way that someone could argue that he's worth more than they were" I meant nobody on here could say that Provorov is worth more, not that nobody in actual contact negotiations would try to.