Prospect Thread XXVIII

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CanaFan

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No, I agree, he didn't actually have a tonne of chances. He had about 30 games one season and then around 25 the next - playing with no one who was spectacular. I think a kid needs a bit more time and trust to break into the league. Imagine if the Sedins were given that ice time in their first few seasons and were then traded?
They didn't really show too much their first couple of seasons.

Having said that, he never really was a difference maker at the AHL level, and he just may not have the grit to make it for his size in the NHL. He's not a buzz saw, and he may not have enough skill to finesse his way through...will be interesting to see what happens in Minnesota for him. Hope he makes it, but if I were a betting man, I wouldn't go all in.

Your second point rings true. While his chances at the NHL were moderate - I wouldn't say he was given *no* chance - he had 3 AHL seasons where he demonstrated the same decent but not terribly impressive play. People can't assume that his NHL games are the only way in which he can impress the Canucks brass. Heck Michael Grabner did more in his 2 AHL seasons and 21 NHL games than JS ever did in 3 AHL seasons and 50+ NHL games - and he still got dumped to Florida over waivers fears.

JS got more of a look than his play truly warranted in part because he was a former 1st round pick. The failing lies far more with what he did in his 4 years in the org than due to any decisions or impatience of the team.
 

Shareefruck

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Schroeder's still with us, right? Is he going to have problems moving up and down from the AHL waiver-wise?

I still like him alot as an Andrew-Ebbett like 13th forward, personally, and do think that he can still develop into a barely serviceable NHL role.
 

Nuckles

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Schroeder's still with us, right? Is he going to have problems moving up and down from the AHL waiver-wise?

I still like him alot as an Andrew-Ebbett like 13th forward, personally, and do think that he can still develop into a barely serviceable NHL role.

We didn't qualify him so he became a UFA and signed with Minnesota.
 

biturbo19

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Jul 13, 2010
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Yeah, all the best to a guy like him, I was super excited when we drafted him, but it really didnt work out.

Yeah. It was a good pick at the time, worth the risk. It didn't work out here. All the best to him, but he had opportunities and didn't do much of anything with them. That's the nature of boom/bust prospects that often gets overlooked here...sometimes they "bust". :dunno:
 

MS

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I still think Schroeder has a chance to become a Desharnais type player in the league. His biggest problem with us is that he would get injured right when a spot opened up for him. He had some truly awful luck here. I think with a more stable AHL environment he could have done a bit better for us at that level as well. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he have an alright first-stint with the Moose way back when?

He didn't have a ton of chances really

No, I agree, he didn't actually have a tonne of chances. He had about 30 games one season and then around 25 the next - playing with no one who was spectacular. I think a kid needs a bit more time and trust to break into the league. Imagine if the Sedins were given that ice time in their first few seasons and were then traded?
They didn't really show too much their first couple of seasons.

Having said that, he never really was a difference maker at the AHL level, and he just may not have the grit to make it for his size in the NHL. He's not a buzz saw, and he may not have enough skill to finesse his way through...will be interesting to see what happens in Minnesota for him. Hope he makes it, but if I were a betting man, I wouldn't go all in.

He had plenty of chances.

He had 3 full years in the AHL to show himself to be the sort of elite player at that level worth of an NHL opportunity. He didn't deliver.

Despite his incredibly underwhelming AHL play, he was still gifted the #2 center position on a contending team for most of the 2012-13 season. And failed utterly.

Most players only get one big chance like that. If you blow it, there's someone else better coming up behind you.

Yeah. It was a good pick at the time, worth the risk. It didn't work out here. All the best to him, but he had opportunities and didn't do much of anything with them. That's the nature of boom/bust prospects that often gets overlooked here...sometimes they "bust". :dunno:

Absolutely. It was the right pick but he simply didn't develop. Or rather, didn't have the heart to translate his skills to NHL production. It happens but I have no problem with the selection. Plus you have to go 11 picks further down the draft to find a player that it's actually bothersome we missed out on, so it isn't like the risk on his upside cost us much.
 

ihaveyuidonttouchme

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He had plenty of chances.

He had 3 full years in the AHL to show himself to be the sort of elite player at that level worth of an NHL opportunity. He didn't deliver.

Despite his incredibly underwhelming AHL play, he was still gifted the #2 center position on a contending team for most of the 2012-13 season. And failed utterly.

Most players only get one big chance like that. If you blow it, there's someone else better coming up behind you.



Absolutely. It was the right pick but he simply didn't develop. Or rather, didn't have the heart to translate his skills to NHL production. It happens but I have no problem with the selection. Plus you have to go 11 picks further down the draft to find a player that it's actually bothersome we missed out on, so it isn't like the risk on his upside cost us much.

guys like Schroeder who were picked at those ranges (20+) usually spends a yr or two in the AHL to develop and improve their weakness and holes in their games. (unless ur ROR ;P)

At the same time, while he was in his first two yrs as a pro, the Canucks were at the height of their game which gave virtually no room to compete and AV wasnt really a fan of giving a rookie a chance unless they had exceptional two way game

He sure did get a chance but again, this was the time where the entire team really had struggled to score and expecting a rookie to give them a push was eh..whats the word...

Last yr he injured himself by blocking a shot in the pre-season where he missed a lot of time
when he came back, that was (imo) when he was actually given a "full time" chance to make a name for himself
but again, injuries, entire team playing like crap wasnt just the right time for a rookie to mesh into...
 
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CanaFan

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guys like Schroeder who were picked at those ranges (20+) usually spends a yr or two in the AHL to develop and improve their weakness and holes in their games. (unless ur ROR ;P)

At the same time, while he was in his first two yrs as a pro, the Canucks were at the height of their game which gave virtually no room to compete and AV wasnt really a fan of giving a rookie a chance unless they had exceptional two way game

He sure did get a chance but again, this was the time where the entire team really had struggled to score and expecting a rookie to give them a push was eh..whats the word...

Last yr he injured himself by blocking a shot in the pre-season where he missed a lot of time
when he came back, that was (imo) when he was actually given a "full time" chance to make a name for himself
but again, injuries, entire team playing like crap wasnt just the right time for a rookie to mesh into...

But which is it then? Unfair when the team is dominant and no chance to get minutes? Or unfair when the team is struggling and you get minutes with struggling linemates?

Good players find ways to contribute in either situation. Given that this team has run the gamut from good play to terrible play and still there was no sign of Schroeder making an impact, I'd look less at the environment and start focussing more on the player.
 

ihaveyuidonttouchme

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But which is it then? Unfair when the team is dominant and no chance to get minutes? Or unfair when the team is struggling and you get minutes with struggling linemates?

Good players find ways to contribute in either situation. Given that this team has run the gamut from good play to terrible play and still there was no sign of Schroeder making an impact, I'd look less at the environment and start focussing more on the player.

probably more so on getting ice time while the team is struggling since thats when he actually got his first chance

agreed on good players find ways
my only lame excuse was i thought they handled him poorly.
u want ur prospects grow much confidence as possible by putting them at the right situation at the right time and i thought he was given his chance wrong situation at the wrong time thus, his low confidence (remember one time last yr when JS was discouraging himself at the bench, Pelletier went over and gave him a good chuckle...)

but hey these r lame excuses and like u said, good players find ways to be successful
i dont want to derail more discussion on JS here so i'll just leave this at....ex canucks discussion
 

ChilliBilly

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interesting ... sorry it didn't work out ... i had hopes he might be Morrison on the WCE ... with a number of possible partners, but mainly Jensen and Kassian.

The other end of the scale - tryamkin

1. not drafted vs drafted but lower than expected.
2. undersized vs massive
3. dominated in U18 vs playing with men at 19

Sorry JS didn't make ... possibly to not have an NHL career vs Grabner ...who couldn't make the Canucks, waived by Fla then went on to a ???auspicious ??? career with the NYI.

With 4 1st round picks in 2 years really wonder what other Soap Operas we have coming?
 

Bankerguy

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I wonder if the Canucks will ever ice a line of:
Shinkaruk Horvat Virtanen
I think that could be a very good line.

also,
Jensen McCann Kassian could be good in 3 or 4 years once Kassian and Jensen are regulars and McCann is in his sophomore year
 

MS

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guys like Schroeder who were picked at those ranges (20+) usually spends a yr or two in the AHL to develop and improve their weakness and holes in their games. (unless ur ROR ;P)

At the same time, while he was in his first two yrs as a pro, the Canucks were at the height of their game which gave virtually no room to compete and AV wasnt really a fan of giving a rookie a chance unless they had exceptional two way game

He sure did get a chance but again, this was the time where the entire team really had struggled to score and expecting a rookie to give them a push was eh..whats the word...

Last yr he injured himself by blocking a shot in the pre-season where he missed a lot of time
when he came back, that was (imo) when he was actually given a "full time" chance to make a name for himself
but again, injuries, entire team playing like crap wasnt just the right time for a rookie to mesh into...

Like I said in the other thread, guys that make the NHL dominate in the AHL and blow through it in less than 2 seasons/100 games. Schroeder (especially as a small skill player) should have walked into the AHL as a point-per-game player and ripped that league apart in his first two seasons if he was going to make it. As, say, Tyler Ennis did.

The fact that our NHL team was very good in those seasons is irrelevant as Schroeder was nowhere on the planet of playing for the NHL club based on his AHL performances.

Schroeder was gifted the #2 center job and regular PP time for the majority of the season until the trade deadline, when his poor performances forced the Derek Roy traded. And hell yeah you expect a rookie to deliver when given prime minutes at age 23. This was his big chance. He was getting identical minutes to what a guy like Brendan Gallagher was getting in Montreal - difference is that one seized their chance and the other didn't.
 

Wisp

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Nov 14, 2010
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If people are still down about Schroeder they must be near hysterical about Jensen's prospects/
Nah. Last season I went and examined Jensen's shots per a game in the AHL vs when he wasn't productive + and coming off injury vs when he was productive. It was such a stark contrast before and after that I'm pretty confident he's turned a corner.

Jensen also has two years left on his ELC. There's a lot of paranoia with him and it's mostly unwarranted IMO.
 

ihaveyuidonttouchme

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Like I said in the other thread, guys that make the NHL dominate in the AHL and blow through it in less than 2 seasons/100 games. Schroeder (especially as a small skill player) should have walked into the AHL as a point-per-game player and ripped that league apart in his first two seasons if he was going to make it. As, say, Tyler Ennis did.

The fact that our NHL team was very good in those seasons is irrelevant as Schroeder was nowhere on the planet of playing for the NHL club based on his AHL performances.

Schroeder was gifted the #2 center job and regular PP time for the majority of the season until the trade deadline, when his poor performances forced the Derek Roy traded. And hell yeah you expect a rookie to deliver when given prime minutes at age 23. This was his big chance. He was getting identical minutes to what a guy like Brendan Gallagher was getting in Montreal - difference is that one seized their chance and the other didn't.

yeah like i said too, good players find ways to take these chances/opportunities
im just trying to point out some lame excuses ;)

but at the same time, u said JS shouldve had PPG in the AHL if JS should make it to NHL but he didnt and we saw the result of that in NHL (didnt lit up). maybe he's just not that elite guy u were expecting him to be but became just average AHL player who just didnt work out perhaps with another team
 

IComeInPeace

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Jimson Hogarth*

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Nah. Last season I went and examined Jensen's shots per a game in the AHL vs when he wasn't productive + and coming off injury vs when he was productive. It was such a stark contrast before and after that I'm pretty confident he's turned a corner.

Jensen also has two years left on his ELC. There's a lot of paranoia with him and it's mostly unwarranted IMO.

His production is similar in terms of points to Schroeder. I think its a leap to consider either full time NHL'rs in the near future.
 

B-rock

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I really wish the HF prospect rankings didn't even exist.
Every year it sends everyone into an uproar due it's clueless inaccuracies.

It should be taken for what it is - a puff piece written by a volunteer "journalist" with next to no knowledge or time spent researching the subject of prospects and rankings.
 

Shareefruck

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I really wish the HF prospect rankings didn't even exist.
Every year it sends everyone into an uproar due it's clueless inaccuracies.

It should be taken for what it is - a puff piece written by a volunteer "journalist" with next to no knowledge or time spent researching the subject of prospects and rankings.
I'm fine with that, but when it gets advertised as thread on these boards, as if they think people will be interested, it's pretty much inviting a trashing. :laugh:
 

biturbo19

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His production is similar in terms of points to Schroeder. I think its a leap to consider either full time NHL'rs in the near future.

You're completely disregarding the sort of trajectory Jensen was on with a "production is similar" argument. Doesn't really do justice to Schroeder vs Jensen's NHL potential.

Trajectory is key with prospects. Jensen was a guy whose overall "production" looks disappointing in a sweeping surface level analysis, but it doesn't at all reflect the way it seemed a switch flipped for him in the latter part of the AHL season where the vast majority of his production occurred. Be that as a result of finally being healthy, or just "getting it", you can't just ignore the stark contrast in early/later season production from Jensen.
 

Jimson Hogarth*

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You're completely disregarding the sort of trajectory Jensen was on with a "production is similar" argument. Doesn't really do justice to Schroeder vs Jensen's NHL potential.

Trajectory is key with prospects. Jensen was a guy whose overall "production" looks disappointing in a sweeping surface level analysis, but it doesn't at all reflect the way it seemed a switch flipped for him in the latter part of the AHL season where the vast majority of his production occurred. Be that as a result of finally being healthy, or just "getting it", you can't just ignore the stark contrast in early/later season production from Jensen.

Then it should carry through to this season? One can only hope. Jensen's development hasn't been the source of much faith, imo
 
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