Pronman Ranks Detroit 13th in Organizational Prospect Rankings

[MBH]

13th sounds low. But he does count Rasmussen, Cholowski and Hronek as graduated.
2019 NHL farm system rankings: No. 13 Detroit Red Wings
1. Zadina 2. Seider 3. Veleno 4. Berggren 5. Kaski 6. Mastrosimone. 7. McIsaac 8. Regula 9. Grewe 10. Larsson
Others:
Svech (11th)
Hirose (12th)
Outside the top 22:
Lindstrom, Saarijarvi, Kotkansalo.

If Pronman's opinion matters (and that's iffy, to say the least), he ranks players in teirs.
Special prospects (true stars)
Elite prospects (impact player, top 10 or 15 percent at their position)
High-end (first line forward, top pairing)
Very good (top six forward, top four defense)
Legit (full time NHLer)
Has a chance - can make it with improvements.

No Red Wings in the first two categories.

Click to read more...

 

[Hammettf2b]

Surprised Hirose is so low. He's at least shown sparks of great play in the show.

 

[Frk It]

I think we have somewhere around the 6th-8th best group of prospects in the league.

So 13th seems a bit low to me. He still is trying to convince himself Veleno isn’t good, and it’s not very convincing IMO.

Actually agree with the tiers he has guys in for the most part, but I think he underrates Veleno, McIsaac, and Larsson.

He really does not like Tuomisto, will be intrigued to see how that kid progresses. Most of the people I look at for the draft did not like that kid much.

 

[MBH]

I think we have somewhere around the 6th-8th best group of prospects in the league.

So 13th seems a bit low to me. He still is trying to convince himself Veleno isn’t good, and it’s not very convincing IMO.

Actually agree with the tiers he has guys in for the most part, but I think he underrates Veleno, McIsaac, and Larsson.

He really does not like Tuomisto, will be intrigued to see how that kid progresses. Most of the people I look at for the draft did not like that kid much.

I've seen his criticism of Veleno before. At times I get it. There are times when he doesn't "pop." Seems to blend into the game.
He's a very good skater. Good enough to be an NHL center. But he doesn't have that extra gear of Larkin, I think. Nor does he have Larkin's hustle.
I do think he's got more of the playmaker's patience you often expect in a center.

 

[ShippinItDaily]

I've seen his criticism of Veleno before. At times I get it. There are times when he doesn't "pop." Seems to blend into the game.
He's a very good skater. Good enough to be an NHL center. But he doesn't have that extra gear of Larkin, I think. Nor does he have Larkin's hustle.
I do think he's got more of the playmaker's patience you often expect in a center.

I agree with this take. I think him holding Veleno down because he was in his 4th season of QMJHL hockey has validity as well.

 

[Henkka]

This Pronman's style of rank with too fast graduates just feels many times silly for me.

I like to read those analyzes but won't much care about the order of teams.

We are 10th in Kourniaos rank and 9th in HF Boards rank. I'm gonna build an average of these three, when Pronman's rank is ready. It should give clearer picture.

 

[Frk It]

I've seen his criticism of Veleno before. At times I get it. There are times when he doesn't "pop." Seems to blend into the game.
He's a very good skater. Good enough to be an NHL center. But he doesn't have that extra gear of Larkin, I think. Nor does he have Larkin's hustle.
I do think he's got more of the playmaker's patience you often expect in a center.

Good plamaker. Good hands. Great skater.

I mean, I think he proved last year he should have been drafted much higher. Not sure what more he could have done.

 

[MBH]

Good plamaker. Good hands. Great skater.

I mean, I think he proved last year he should have been drafted much higher. Not sure what more he could have done.

I agree. In a draft where Centers moved up on draft day, Veleno's fall made no sense.

 

[Hen Kolland]

So 13th seems a bit low to me. He still is trying to convince himself Veleno isn’t good, and it’s not very convincing IMO.

What I found EXTRA curious was when he listed the top-10 23 and under, last summer he had Zadina followed by Veleno at 1 and 2. This year, Veleno was jumped by Rasmussen, Cholowski, and Hronek; and while I won't raise any questions about Hronek at this stage, it's an awfully interesting take to move Ras and Cholowski up.

 

[SCD]

What I found EXTRA curious was when he listed the top-10 23 and under, last summer he had Zadina followed by Veleno at 1 and 2. This year, Veleno was jumped by Rasmussen, Cholowski, and Hronek; and while I won't raise any questions about Hronek at this stage, it's an awfully interesting take to move Ras and Cholowski up.

I think NHL readiness factors heavily into this ranking. With the three of them playing significant number of games last season, that resulted in Veleno's drop.

Personally, I would prefer a prospect list based solely on ultimate potential.

 

[Ezekial]

So 13th seems a bit low to me. He still is trying to convince himself Veleno isn’t good, and it’s not very convincing IMO.

EP is a much better player but he did the same for Pettersson, waited until he looked like a fool to move him up in his rankings.
E: wrong quote

 

[MBH]

What I found EXTRA curious was when he listed the top-10 23 and under, last summer he had Zadina followed by Veleno at 1 and 2. This year, Veleno was jumped by Rasmussen, Cholowski, and Hronek; and while I won't raise any questions about Hronek at this stage, it's an awfully interesting take to move Ras and Cholowski up.

I know Cholo, Hronek and Rasmussen played a lot of NHL games. But I still view them as prospects who may or may not be NHL ready.
Hronek is the closest to being an NHL-ready guy.
But if he's allowing 3 goals/60 at 5 on 5 after 30 games, I might change my tune.

 

[Hen Kolland]

I think NHL readiness factors heavily into this ranking. With the three of them playing significant number of games last season, that resulted in Veleno's drop.

Personally, I would prefer a prospect list based solely on ultimate potential.

I could argue that based on what I saw last year and what I've seen to this point in various camps, Veleno is probably more NHL ready than Rasmussen or Cholowski. It's not like he's physically behind the curve. He skates at a high level, he plays 200 feet, he doesn't appear to be a major liability on the ice. If I was making choices, he would be in the NHL before Ras this year, and obviously Cholowski plays a different position, but still think Veleno is more prepared.

 

[Ezekial]

If I were making choices if I'd wait till camp to evaluate Rasmussen and Veleno.

 

[plymouthmi]

Yeah, 25 games seems a bit low to say that someone is no longer a prospect. I am absolutely certain there were players who played 25 games in the 2017-2018 season and then played less games than that last year, and by this guys metric they would no longer be prospects. But I guess as long as he's consistent across the board with all teams, it probably doesn't affect the overall rankings much. I do kind of like how he does his tiers.

I'm a little surprised by Lindstrom not even being on his list, I guess Red Wings brass is much higher on him than others. And even with him listing Zadina as a high-end prospect he seems kind of down on him. I hope he's wrong about both Zadina and Veleno!

 

[Henkka]

Personally, I would prefer a prospect list based solely on ultimate potential.

Mee too.

Because, if you think, what the purpose for these prospect lists?

The main reasoning is to predict the future strength of the franchise. And when you exclude guys with certain limits, those prospect list will become misleading.

But that's what writers want. They want wrong orderings on purpose, to create discussion = hype for their articles. Kind of hate this nowadays populism.

Nobody is building that ultimate rank. Because that would mostly end the discussion.

 

[MBH]

I could argue that based on what I saw last year and what I've seen to this point in various camps, Veleno is probably more NHL ready than Rasmussen or Cholowski. It's not like he's physically behind the curve. He skates at a high level, he plays 200 feet, he doesn't appear to be a major liability on the ice. If I was making choices, he would be in the NHL before Ras this year, and obviously Cholowski plays a different position, but still think Veleno is more prepared.

Last year, out of Veleno, Rasmussen and Zadina, I thought Veleno was the only guy who played well enough to earn a look in the NHL.
Rasmussen and Zadina struggled. Couldn't skate with the puck and get any separation.
Veleno made some rookie errors, but he consistently gained the blueline, stopped and set up. Sometimes he forced passes. But I was impressed.
Looked a lot like a Filppula type.

 

[MBH]

Mee too.

Because, if you think, what the purpose for these prospect lists?

The main reasoning is to predict the future strength of the franchise. And when you exclude guys with certain limits, those prospect list will become misleading.

But that's what writers want. They want wrong orderings on purpose, to create discussion = hype for their articles. Kind of hate this nowadays populism.

Nobody is building that ultimate rank. Because that would mostly end the discussion.

Man. There is no "ultimate rank."
It's impossible. There will always be discussion.

 

[MBH]

Yeah, 25 games seems a bit low to say that someone is no longer a prospect. I am absolutely certain there were players who played 25 games in the 2017-2018 season and then played less games than that last year, and by this guys metric they would no longer be prospects. But I guess as long as he's consistent across the board with all teams, it probably doesn't affect the overall rankings much. I do kind of like how he does his tiers.

I'm a little surprised by Lindstrom not even being on his list, I guess Red Wings brass is much higher on him than others. And even with him listing Zadina as a high-end prospect he seems kind of down on him. I hope he's wrong about both Zadina and Veleno!

I've been completely underwhelmed by Lindstrom every time I've watched him.
So I was kind of glad to see someone else finally agree with me.

 

[TheOtherOne]

13th is a playoff spot B)

 

[BinCookin]

Last year, out of Veleno, Rasmussen and Zadina, I thought Veleno was the only guy who played well enough to earn a look in the NHL.
Rasmussen and Zadina struggled. Couldn't skate with the puck and get any separation.
Veleno made some rookie errors, but he consistently gained the blueline, stopped and set up. Sometimes he forced passes. But I was impressed.
Looked a lot like a Filppula type.

We all should be very careful how we rate our prospects in relation to what league they are in.

It makes a big difference.

McIsaac and Veleno look the best last year... although they stayed in juniors. They are playing mostly 16 and 17 year olds. They are supposed to dominate them. So GJ I guess... but this does not at all mean either will do well in the AHL. Which is a much harder league to play in.

Equivalently, Zadina going there at 18 is very much out of character, he advanced very fast and his stats were "subpar". But I think his age and what league he is in is a large factor here.

His weaknesses were especially exposed, meanwhile Veleno and McIsaac's weaknesses have not been shown at all. Not that they do not have them, but their competition is inferior.

 

[Hen Kolland]

We all should be very careful how we rate our prospects in relation to what league they are in.

It makes a big difference.

McIsaac and Veleno look the best last year... although they stayed in juniors. They are playing mostly 16 and 17 year olds. They are supposed to dominate them. So GJ I guess... but this does not at all mean either will do well in the AHL. Which is a much harder league to play in.

Equivalently, Zadina going there at 18 is very much out of character, he advanced very fast and his stats were "subpar". But I think his age and what league he is in is a large factor here.

His weaknesses were especially exposed, meanwhile Veleno and McIsaac's weaknesses have not been shown at all. Not that they do not have them, but their competition is inferior.

Pretty sure what he was getting at was that prior to last year getting under way, he felt that Veleno was best prepared to play in the NHL last year. And I tend to agree with him.

 

[Frk It]

Pretty sure what he was getting at was that prior to last year getting under way, he felt that Veleno was best prepared to play in the NHL last year. And I tend to agree with him.

Really? Even now?

Maybe I felt that way last summer, but I think it worked out perfectly. The #1 thing I wanted to see from Veleno was an uptick in his goal scoring. Juniors was 100% the best place for him to work on that.

 

[MBH]

We all should be very careful how we rate our prospects in relation to what league they are in.

It makes a big difference.

McIsaac and Veleno look the best last year... although they stayed in juniors. They are playing mostly 16 and 17 year olds. They are supposed to dominate them. So GJ I guess... but this does not at all mean either will do well in the AHL. Which is a much harder league to play in.

Equivalently, Zadina going there at 18 is very much out of character, he advanced very fast and his stats were "subpar". But I think his age and what league he is in is a large factor here.

His weaknesses were especially exposed, meanwhile Veleno and McIsaac's weaknesses have not been shown at all. Not that they do not have them, but their competition is inferior.

All valid points.
But I'm in my Ras vs. Veleno vs Zadina comparison, I'm talking about how they looked in the Wings' prospect tournament and then in the Wings NHL exhibition season.

 

[MBH]

Really? Even now?

Maybe I felt that way last summer, but I think it worked out perfectly. The #1 thing I wanted to see from Veleno was an uptick in his goal scoring. Juniors was 100% the best place for him to work on that.

Yep.
The only complaint I have with Veleno's season was that his playoff production went south at the end.