problems with peter laviolette

[toughfighter83*]

flyers fan here, i come in peace, what was the problem with peter laviolette that got him fired there in carolina? whatever it is, it's happening here in phi too, i loved the hire when he first got here in phi in 09 but he must be doing the same things that got him fired in carolina.

im not pleased with him here either.

Click to read more...

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I wasn't a hockey fan, but I'd imagine his balls to the wall style of communicating with players and getting angry over every loss wears thin with the players.

When Larry Bird coached, he decided to leave after 3 years because after 3 years, he explained, the coach will lose the lockerroom. And Laviolette is a motivator. Once he loses the lockerroom, he doesn't bring any amazing strategies or new training scheme's that make him worth keeping.

 

[Zombie Mike Murphy]

Flyers problems are upper management, not the coach. The Jeff Carter and Mike Richards deals gutted the franchise, and the Bryz deal isn't exactly panning out either.

 

[HisIceness]

It was my understanding that he and JR weren't getting along. It was basically one of those "I want you to do things this way" vs "I want to do things the other way".

It also didn't help the previous two teams missed the playoffs.

 

[Anton Babchuk]

On top of missing the playoffs two years in a row and then getting off to a bad start the third year, he played three injured players to end the '07-'08 season and all three of them did nothing and we lost 3 out of 4 games to miss the playoffs.

He had the bright idea of dressing Justin Williams (first game in 4 months) and Ray Whitney (first game in a month) on the 4th line despite neither of them being ready for game action, against the Capitals who we were battling for a playoff spot with. Whitney takes a bad penalty leading to a Capitals goal and Williams re-injures himself in the first period, leaving us with 11 forwards for a crucial game.

In the final game of the season (in which the Hurricanes would have made the playoffs had they won), Laviolette dressed Matt Cullen, who had suffered a concussion earlier in the season and was still having "vision problems" (and was confirmed to still be suffering from post-concussion syndrome during the offseason). He wore a tinted visor during the game because bright lights were still causing him headaches. Not only does Lavi play him, but he plays the point on the powerplay and gets badly burnt leading to the GWG.

This seems to be totally forgotten, but it was a big deal at the time. Lavi rolled the dice by playing three injured players and all they did was hurt the team.

 

[toughfighter83*]

It was my understanding that he and JR weren't getting along. It was basically one of those "I want you to do things this way" vs "I want to do things the other way".

It also didn't help the previous two teams missed the playoffs.

read this: i think if he's going to have problems with your owner i think its going to be the same with snider if the flyers are out of the playoffs

http://www.mcall.com/sports/hockey/flyers/mc-flyers-0116-20130116,0,3718206.story

i hope you guys make the playoffs.

another note, he's playing Andrej Meszároš who tore his achilles 6 months, i just dont get it, he looks really slow out there right now.

 

[Ole Gil]

My impression was that our defense changed from a bunch of defensively responsible guys with a little bit of offense, to a more offensive-defensmen oriented crew. And Lavi's system didn't adjust. So the Canes were giving up a bajillion goals a game.

I think he has a really good system with the right parts, but if the parts stop being right, things will go south in a hurry because he only has that one system.

 

[Anton Babchuk]

My impression was that our defense changed from a bunch of defensively responsible guys with a little bit of offense, to a more offensive-defensmen oriented crew. And Lavi's system didn't adjust. So the Canes were giving up a bajillion goals a game.

I think he has a really good system with the right parts, but if the parts stop being right, things will go south in a hurry because he only has that one system.

That's not true at all. The 'Canes had mostly defensive defensemen in the lineup in 06-07 and 07-08. The defense was so defensive D oriented that they were using five forwards on the first unit and four forwards on the second unit for the first few months of the 07-08 season. Commodore led the D in scoring in 06-07 with a whopping 29 points.

Hedican-Commodore
Wesley-Gleason
Kaberle-Wallin
Seidenberg

That has to be one of the least offensively talented defenses in history. Especially when you consider Seidenberg hadn't broken out yet and Kaberle was pretty much done. On the nights where Lavi would randomly scratch Seidenberg for no reason (which happened a lot), Kaberle was our only offensive D.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

^ I think that's exactly what wallym said...the implication being the "adjustments" not taking place in spring/fall of 2008 when the more offensive-minded D was present.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Yeah, Lavi's problem was always making adjustments to the gameplan when the need be.

He had real success immediately after the lockout, because his style of play matched up perfectly to the new rules and allowed that "run and gun" offense to lead the team to the Cup.

However, teams adjusted to that style in the years after, and Lavi never changed it. Led to a lot of poor pinching decisions by the defense (since they were being pressured to do so) and a lot of breakaways/oddman rushes going the other way.

 

[toughfighter83*]

Yeah, Lavi's problem was always making adjustments to the gameplan when the need be.

He had real success immediately after the lockout, because his style of play matched up perfectly to the new rules and allowed that "run and gun" offense to lead the team to the Cup.

However, teams adjusted to that style in the years after, and Lavi never changed it. Led to a lot of poor pinching decisions by the defense (since they were being pressured to do so) and a lot of breakaways/oddman rushes going the other way.

that sounds about right, since the last game against buffalo and pittsburgh, our pp kill was awful, not to mention against pittsburgh last year in the playoffs, alot of odd man rushes, against new jersey, his style couldnt even beat the trap, nj was constantly in our zone in the whole game in the last four games and refused to adjust, that got us eliminated, not to menion our roster is really poor, no snipers accept giroux.

 

[Anton Babchuk]

^ I think that's exactly what wallym said...the implication being the "adjustments" not taking place in spring/fall of 2008 when the more offensive-minded D was present.

But the start of 08-09 was really no different than the prior two seasons. The implication was that Lavi failed to adjust to the switch to more offensive D caused the team to allow a "bajillion goals", when really they were no worse defensively than the team was before under Laviolette. They allowed 2.84 goals per game in those 25 games, compared to 3.00, 3.02 and 3.15 the previous three years under Lavi.

Even if that was the case (team allowing a lot more goals because of failure to adjust to offensive D), certainly we can agree that it wasn't *just* the 08-09 season that got Lavi fired and that the previous two seasons played a large part?

Lavi's teams were allowing over three goals per game for a three year period with the vast majority of that time coming with mostly defensive D, then JR switches to more offensive D and they actually allow *less* and yet it's the presence of offensive D and Lavi's "failure to adjust" that caused the problem? Maybe Lavi's defensive system just sucked to begin with.

 

[Ole Gil]

Ha, I was just going with anecdotal remembrances from 4 years ago. I didn't realize how serious this business was. But now I'm in it to win it!!!!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=3741341

JR says Lavi is fired because the system that worked in '06 had been adjusted to by other teams, yet Lavi didn't make any adjustments.

What I remembered anecdotally is the team continuing to play the wide open hockey they had been playing, but scoring 1 or 2 goals most night while the other teams continued to score a lot more.

Year GA/G Rank G/G Rank
05-06-3.15-20-3.49-3
06-07-3.02-20-2.94-13
07-08-3.00-25-3.05-5
08-09-2.92-19-2.56-24 (through 25 games)

(unrelated, but this shows the defense was actually got worse from 05-06 to 07-08 despite the dropping GA/G stat)

So what I see here, is a team that plays fast and loose, and scores a lot of goals with pretty limited talent offensively on defense, as you pointed out for 3 years. Declining results, but lets be honest, it was declining talent and injuries too.

Then we put Corvo/Babchuk/Pitkanen/Seidenberg in the lineup, and we become a bad defensive team that is also a bad offensive team.

Perhaps my recollections were skewed more on the bajillion goals we gave up, because it seems like more when the Canes are 24th in the league in scoring instead of top 5? But, to be honest, I'm not sure Bajillion is even a real number.

But it's pretty evident that things went completely to hell offensively at the start of the 08-09 season, despite dmen who could play offense joining the club. Does Lavi get fired if we were in the playoffs both years before? Not likely. But this wasn't about it being a continuation of the past 3 years, it was a new much more horrible abomination (as evidenced by the statistics) that Peter didn't want to change (according to JR).

 

[Anton Babchuk]

Cole was traded in the '08 offseason and Williams/Walker were both injured to start the season. I don't think Williams ever played under Lavi that year and Walker only a few games. So you're missing your top 2 RWs from the year before entirely and your 3rd line RW for most of those games.

And furthermore, Corvo and Seidenberg were not put in the lineup for that season--they were already there, and in fact the team did great with them in the lineup after the Corvo trade (in which offensive D Corvo replaced defensive D Commodore).

Which more negatively affects a team's offense: replacing Hedican/Wesley with Pitkanen and Melichar/Babchuk, or losing Cole/Williams/Walker?

And if you look closer at the stats, you'll see that the main cause of the drop in offense comes from the powerplay. It was 8th the year before and I believe was 29th or 30th when Laviolette was fired. What in the world does the lack of defensive defensemen have to do with the powerplay?

But this wasn't about it being a continuation of the past 3 years, it was a new much more horrible abomination (as evidenced by the statistics) that Peter didn't want to change (according to JR).

I'm sorry, but am I reading a different quote than you?

"It's really not about the last four or five games," Rutherford said. "It's about changing to get the chemistry back on our team, to get the confidence back on our team and make what I would say minor adjustments in a system that really worked in the Stanley Cup year. But teams have adjusted to it, and our team hasn't adjusted over the last couple of years."

 

[bauer]

Flyers problems are upper management, not the coach. The Jeff Carter and Mike Richards deals gutted the franchise, and the Bryz deal isn't exactly panning out either.

umm no. those deals brought back Schenn, Couturier, Voracek and Simmonds. that's hardly gutting the franchise. the problem was losing Pronger, that was a huge blow.

 

[Zombie Mike Murphy]

Ok, sure there was a return, but well, um, which team won the Stanley Cup last year, and which two Flyers players were key players in said playoff run?

 

[Ole Gil]

Cole was traded in the '08 offseason and Williams/Walker were both injured to start the season. I don't think Williams ever played under Lavi that year and Walker only a few games. So you're missing your top 2 RWs from the year before entirely and your 3rd line RW for most of those games.

And furthermore, Corvo and Seidenberg were not put in the lineup for that season--they were already there, and in fact the team did great with them in the lineup after the Corvo trade (in which offensive D Corvo replaced defensive D Commodore).

Which more negatively affects a team's offense: replacing Hedican/Wesley with Pitkanen and Melichar/Babchuk, or losing Cole/Williams/Walker?

And if you look closer at the stats, you'll see that the main cause of the drop in offense comes from the powerplay. It was 8th the year before and I believe was 29th or 30th when Laviolette was fired. What in the world does the lack of defensive defensemen have to do with the powerplay?

I'm sorry, but am I reading a different quote than you?

"It's really not about the last four or five games," Rutherford said. "It's about changing to get the chemistry back on our team, to get the confidence back on our team and make what I would say minor adjustments in a system that really worked in the Stanley Cup year. But teams have adjusted to it, and our team hasn't adjusted over the last couple of years."

I disagree.

 

[ncrunnerrrr]

Team didn't play any defense (and with the defensemen we've had recently it's tough to) and his communication methods towards management and towards his players wore on people after a while. '06 it just all clicked together pretty spectacularly.

 

[nobuddy]

Ok, sure there was a return, but well, um, which team won the Stanley Cup last year, and which two Flyers players were key players in said playoff run?

That team also had Anze Kopitar, Dustin Brown, Drew Doughty, and Jonathan Quick.

 

[TheBigKahuna]

Does Peter still spray paint his bald spot?

 

[Roboturner913]

First off I will always have a soft spot for Laviolette. He did some great things for the org and I think in some fashion he will always be considered by most around the team as part of the "family". Kind of like a successful version of Paul Maurice.

Having said that. Laviolette is like a lot of other coaches in every sport in that he is a "method" guy instead of a "people" guy. He's a one-trick pony. As long as things are going great everyone buys in and it's fine, but when things start to go poorly (and they inevitably will) it becomes more about the coach's ego and having things done "his way" than working with what you have and finding a way to adapt. And that's about the time people stop listening or caring about what he has to say.

It's really not that much different from real life though. I've had bosses of both kinds - the ones who listen to their subordinates and work to figure out how to maximize their talent according to the situation, and the other kind who beat their head up against a wall over and over to do things their way. One company was very successful and I worked there 12 years, the next was an absolute trainwreck with a revolving door of personnel and people quitting on a weekly basis. One guy is almost universally respected in the industry, the other is a laughingstock. Guess which is which. - That's not to say Lav is a laughingstock, but he's got more of the latter in him than the former, I think.