Primeau upset Goodenow with his contract

[Wetcoaster]

Every player in the league is guaranteed a minimum 10% raise per year until UFA under the current CBA if a team wants to maintain his rights, regardless of how much they make.

Pardon????????????????????

No they are not. Where do you get this claptrap from - Bettman?

 

[mooseOAK*]

They most certainly are not. Even if each player qualified to be qualified at 110% when they reached RFA status, they do not reach RFA ststus every year.

Then they get it built in to a multi-year contract. The team is forced to give it to them because they know that if they only sign the guy to one year he gets the raise next year anyway.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

What I mean is that compromise isn't always in a bargaining party's best interest and can come back to burn them. With Goodenow around they have to make sure that any agreement is locked tightly.

Compromise doesn't work when dealing with a hostile negotiating party.The PA is not hostile. Their bargainning strategy as been somewhat accomodating, so far.

I'm not sure what you mean by "goodenow around, gotta watch the children"
Sounds like more hyperbole to me.

 

[CarlRacki]

Compromise doesn't work when dealing with a hostile negotiating party.The PA is not hostile. Their bargainning strategy as been somewhat accomodating, so far.

I'm not sure what you mean by "goodenow around, gotta watch the children"
Sounds like more hyperbole to me.

Sure, and here some of the non-hostile, accomodating statements from the PA -

Flyers' player Rep Robert Esche: "We're talking to a madman. A guy who has no rhyme or reason. Personally, I don't even think he is a fan of the game. I think there are a lot of great owners out there, but there is a madman leading them down the wrong path."

Bargaining committee member Daniel Alfredsson: "I am afraid Bettman might try to bring down the whole league and restart it on his own terms (next) September."

Bobby Holik: "Lying comes very easy to these people. The owners and league lie all the time to further their agenda. "

Shane Doan: "It boggles my mind how Gary has kept his job. I don't know what happened to him in the last lockout (1994). Maybe he feels embarrassed and is trying to prove himself in this one.''

NHLPA Senior Director Ted Saskin: When asked in a television interview if he thought commissioner Gary Bettman was the right man to run the NHL, Ted Saskin said: ''Not from what I've seen so far.''

I could go on, but I hope by now you get the point. The PA has been the hostile party, not the NHL.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

Sure, and here some of the non-hostile, accomodating statements from the PA -

Flyers' player Rep Robert Esche: "We're talking to a madman. A guy who has no rhyme or reason. Personally, I don't even think he is a fan of the game. I think there are a lot of great owners out there, but there is a madman leading them down the wrong path."

Bargaining committee member Daniel Alfredsson: "I am afraid Bettman might try to bring down the whole league and restart it on his own terms (next) September."

Bobby Holik: "Lying comes very easy to these people. The owners and league lie all the time to further their agenda. "

Shane Doan: "It boggles my mind how Gary has kept his job. I don't know what happened to him in the last lockout (1994). Maybe he feels embarrassed and is trying to prove himself in this one.''

NHLPA Senior Director Ted Saskin: When asked in a television interview if he thought commissioner Gary Bettman was the right man to run the NHL, Ted Saskin said: ''Not from what I've seen so far.''

I could go on, but I hope by now you get the point. The PA has been the hostile party, not the NHL.

You guys are waayyyy to predictable.

Let's try to be intelligent about this. What matters is negotiations.
The only hostility that counts comes at the negotiating table.

So far the players have shown some willingness to give.
The owners have not. Not one inch.

That's what I'm talking about. If that's not what you're talking about, don't bother replying, because I'm not going to get into a war of anecdotes. Let's stick to meaningful facts/

 

[PecaFan]

This is a one time logical step in the progression in the rise of salaries from about $850k for rookies up to about $7mil for the top RFAs. The first leverage point when salaries jump is when they reach arbitration age. Another is when they are in their primes about 27. And finally when they first hit UFA age. At each stage, here is a jumpo to the next level. Hardly surprising, shocking, or unnatural. Certainly not a sign of an inflationary system. Its a normal, predicatable system.

It's only "natural" if you define 10+ million dollar salaries at the high end as "normal", and million dollar salaries at the other end as "abnormally low". In reality, they start out highly paid, and get insane increases throughout the years, until they wind up as massively overpaid.

 

[hockeytown9321]

Then they get it built in to a multi-year contract. The team is forced to give it to them because they know that if they only sign the guy to one year he gets the raise next year anyway.

Enough with the massive generalizations. There are plenty of players who sign multi year deals that pay them the same salary each year.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Enough with the massive generalizations. There are plenty of players who sign multi year deals that pay them the same salary each year.

Plenty? I don't recall seeing one. They like to have the last year as the highest amount because, you guessed it, that is the amount they get qualified at for their next contract.

 

[Juicer]

And collusion by owners is illegal too. That's my point.

Yes, and my original point was that if the NHLPA can do it, then why can't the owners?

Goodenow provides counsel in the course of his duties as Executive Director of the NHLPA. He doesn't work for the owners. But I'm sure you know that already.

Of course I do. Bettman also does not work for the owners, does that mean he should pressure teams to not sign players to help their teams and fans? What was even worse about Goodenow's stance, is that Primeau has a perfect fit in Philly. Not only does the city love him, him signing a smaller deal could improve his chance of winning, which could also give him a better playoff bonus. Goodenow could obviously care less about Primeau's happiness.

 

[Bicycle Repairman]

Yes, and my original point was that if the NHLPA can do it, then why can't the owners?

Because then it's called racketeering. Don't like it? Take it up with the lawmakers in your jurisdiction.

Bettman also does not work for the owners

Pardon?

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Yes, and my original point was that if the NHLPA can do it, then why can't the owners?
.

because its illegal.

Of course I do. Bettman also does not work for the owners .

you sure about that ?

Goodenow could obviously care less about Primeau's happiness.

the job of the PA and the agents is to provide business advice and to help the players negotiate with the owners by providing strategy and leadership. Primeau is responsible for his own happiness, not Goodenow.

 

[Juicer]

Flyers' player Rep Robert Esche: "We're talking to a madman. A guy who has no rhyme or reason. Personally, I don't even think he is a fan of the game. I think there are a lot of great owners out there, but there is a madman leading them down the wrong path."

On top of that comment, Esche later said this:

"The owners have single-handedly continued to try to ruin this sport"

Being a Flyers fan, I am going to have a hard time getting behind him. Him and McCabe are terrible examples of player reps with their slanderous comments.

 

[Juicer]

because its illegal.

But it is OK for the PA to try and get their players to not sign contracts they think is not in line with their agenda?

the job of the PA and the agents is to provide business advice and to help the players negotiate with the owners by providing strategy and leadership. Primeau is responsible for his own happiness, not Goodenow.

So then why should Goodenow oppose Primeau's decisions and try to talk him out of it? Primeau made his decision and was happy, he did not need pressure to not sign.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

But it is OK for the PA to try and get their players to not sign contracts they think is not in line with their agenda?.

take it up with your local lawmakers. thats how the system is set up.

So then why should Goodenow oppose Primeau's decisions and try to talk him out of it? Primeau made his decision and was happy, he did not need pressure to not sign.

Goodenow gave him financial advice, Primeau made his own decision.

DR

 

[Wetcoaster]

Yes, and my original point was that if the NHLPA can do it, then why can't the owners?

Because it is illegal for the owners but it is not illegal for the players. In the US it would illegal be under the anti-trust laws and in Canada under the Competiton Act. The Competion act specifies:

48. (1) Every one who conspires, combines, agrees or arranges with another person

(a) to limit unreasonably the opportunities for any other person to participate, as a player or competitor, in professional sport or to impose unreasonable terms or conditions on those persons who so participate, or

(b) to limit unreasonably the opportunity for any other person to negotiate with and, if agreement is reached, to play for the team or club of his choice in a professional league

is guilty of an indictable offence and liable on conviction to a fine in the discretion of the court or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to both.

The Competiton Act does not apply to the players and does not apply if there is a CBA in place:

4. (1) Nothing in this Act applies in respect of

(a) combinations or activities of workmen or employees for their own reasonable protection as such workmen or employees;
......
(c) contracts, agreements or arrangements between or among two or more employers in a trade, industry or profession, whether effected directly between or among the employers or through the instrumentality of a corporation or association of which the employers are members, pertaining to collective bargaining with their employees in respect of salary or wages and terms or conditions of employment.

Without a CBA there is no Entry Draft, restrictions on free agency, etc.

Of course I do. Bettman also does not work for the owners, does that mean he should pressure teams to not sign players to help their teams and fans?

Pardon??? Bettman is hired and paid by the owners and can be fired by the owners. He is the owners' hired representative as Goodenow is the players' hired representative.

 

[Steve L*]

I can't read the whole thread, but has Keith retracted his statement?

No, this is the last contract of his career so he wanted to carry on with little fuss.

Its also mentioned in the Philly press that this has in effect introduced a per player cap where noone will earn more than Primeau.

If you want to play for the Flyers then youre going to earn less than $4.5m, if you want more then you can go to teams like NYR or Toronto where they will continue to pay stupid money. I see this as a good thing for the Flyers as they will get players that want to win which is more important than getting players like Holik, Jagr or Yashin.

 

[Wetcoaster]

No, this is the last contract of his career so he wanted to carry on with little fuss.

Its also mentioned in the Philly press that this has in effect introduced a per player cap where noone will earn more than Primeau.

If you want to play for the Flyers then youre going to earn less than $4.5m, if you want more then you can go to teams like NYR or Toronto where they will continue to pay stupid money. I see this as a good thing for the Flyers as they will get players that want to win which is more important than getting players like Holik, Jagr or Yashin.

The latest version of the Ray Bourque salary cap.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

No, this is the last contract of his career so he wanted to carry on with little fuss.

Its also mentioned in the Philly press that this has in effect introduced a per player cap where noone will earn more than Primeau.

If you want to play for the Flyers then youre going to earn less than $4.5m, if you want more then you can go to teams like NYR or Toronto where they will continue to pay stupid money. I see this as a good thing for the Flyers as they will get players that want to win which is more important than getting players like Holik, Jagr or Yashin.

so then the only reason for PHI to support a hard league cap would be to increase its franchise value, since it clearly has its own mechanism to keep salaries under control.

dr

 

[mooseOAK*]

No, this is the last contract of his career so he wanted to carry on with little fuss.

Its also mentioned in the Philly press that this has in effect introduced a per player cap where noone will earn more than Primeau.

If you want to play for the Flyers then youre going to earn less than $4.5m, if you want more then you can go to teams like NYR or Toronto where they will continue to pay stupid money. I see this as a good thing for the Flyers as they will get players that want to win which is more important than getting players like Holik, Jagr or Yashin.

Flyers fans are going to love that approach. No one gets brought in to help the team that will make more money than a guy who scored 7 goals last season.

 

[FlyersFan10*]

I think Primeau was given a very fair salary and even Primeau thought the salary offer was more than generous when you consider he only scored 7 goals during the regular season. However, as much as people may want to dismiss Primeau's contribution, Keith really elevated his play come playoff time, when games really matter.

I think Primeau finally understands that while it is important to play good during the regular season, it is even more important to play excellent during the playoffs. Primeau has finally gotten it right.

As for being a salary cap for the Flyers, I don't think so. I think it's one of those things where if Gagne puts up top 10 numbers during the season and then puts up an MVP performance during the playoffs, he'll be paid accordingly. The Primeau contract sets the level at how players are going to be judged by the Flyers.

I'll say it once, and I'll say it again. The numbers that are put up by the Flyers players are indicative of the system that they play in. They play in a system that restricts offensive creativity and rewards defensive intensity, so no matter what, you'll only see a player hit a max of 80 points in the Hitch system.

As for the knocks on Jagr, I know I'm tired of seeing them. Jagr never wanted to leave Pittsburgh and when he was dealt, you could see that he was clearly disappointed. I'm willing to bet that if Jagr were to return to Pittsburgh, you'd see the Jagr of old come back.

 

[jfont]

IMO this says a lot about the characters of both Primeau and Goodenow. Primeau knows it was reasonable to accept a paycut, even after the best playoffs of his career but all Goodenow wanted his to do was get the most money possible to drive up the value of other players and not even caring about what is best for Primeau and his family.

so getting the most money is not best for primeau and his family ?

 

[FlyersFan10*]

Flyers fans are going to love that approach. No one gets brought in to help the team that will make more money than a guy who scored 7 goals last season.

You're a leaf fan right? If that's the case, then people can point their fingers at your team and say "well, you've paid Sundin, Mogilny, Belfour, McCabe, Leetch, etc....." all sums over 4.5 million a year and what have they delivered? That's right, nada.

As for Primeau, he carried a Flyers a team on his back and single handedly beat the Leafs. Single handedly. He made Sundin his Bi-otch and almost led the Flyers to an upset of the eventual Stanley Cup champs. Say what you want about Primeau's regular season stats, but when it is time to deliver, he's there.

 

[mooseOAK*]

You're a leaf fan right? If that's the case, then people can point their fingers at your team and say "well, you've paid Sundin, Mogilny, Belfour, McCabe, Leetch, etc....." all sums over 4.5 million a year and what have they delivered? That's right, nada.

As for Primeau, he carried a Flyers a team on his back and single handedly beat the Leafs. Single handedly. He made Sundin his Bi-otch and almost led the Flyers to an upset of the eventual Stanley Cup champs. Say what you want about Primeau's regular season stats, but when it is time to deliver, he's there.

Oh, shut up. The reality of the situation in the last couple of years is that Ottawa, Toronto, and Philadelphia have beaten the hell out of one another and NJ and TB have picked up the pieces. I don't go around thumping my chest about the Leafs beating the Sens every year, a team the Primeau can't carry his team on his back to beat.

 

[CarlRacki]

You guys are waayyyy to predictable.

Let's try to be intelligent about this. What matters is negotiations.
The only hostility that counts comes at the negotiating table.

So far the players have shown some willingness to give.
The owners have not. Not one inch.

That's what I'm talking about. If that's not what you're talking about, don't bother replying, because I'm not going to get into a war of anecdotes. Let's stick to meaningful facts/

Just so I understand the "new" definitions of hostile and accomodating, courtesy of newsguyone ...

Accomodating: (adj.) Name-calling, threatening, belittling.
Hostile: (adj.) Refusing to give the players what they want.

Am I clear on this? Why, pray tell, are the owners "hostile" for sticking to their principles (i.e. cost certainty) yet the players are accomodating for sticking to theirs (i.e. working at Wal-Mart is better than a capped NHL). Seems to me they're both entrenched in their positions, yet you claim only one side is hostile. Hmmm.

The owners haven't given an inch? Well, they've increased their cap number, lowered the age of RFA, increased the percentage of revenues for players and increased the minimum salary. I know, I know, that doesn't count.

 

[chriss_co]

so getting the most money is not best for primeau and his family ?

I hope you are joking... cuz NO, it isn't... money isn't everything in life...

living in a comfortable setting is important for families.. maybe philly is an excellent city (ive never been there so i cant say)

more importantly, moving kids from school to school can be stressful for the little ones.. (not to mention city to city)

so yea.. money isn't everything...