Primeau upset Goodenow with his contract

[Psycho Papa Joe]

It also proves that Goodenow is capable of putting presure on players behind the scenes, by going over their heads to their agents...another player's agent might have used Goodenow to gang up on the guy to get him to hold out.
-HckyFght!

It would only be a wrong if Goodenow decertified agents if their players signed for below market contracts. At that point Goodenow would be borderline guilty of extortion. Not unlike Bettman fining owners 1mil for daring to speak up against the NHL line.

 

[Wetcoaster]

And collusion by owners is illegal too. That's my point.

It is not collusion by Goodenow because it does not fit the legal definition under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act in the US or the competiton Act in Canada. In Canada it would have been a crime in the past per the Criminal Code under the law of criminal conspiracy in restraint of trade but that was repealed by Parliament in 1892. Now this section does not apply to unions.

Under the conspiracy provisions of the Competition Act, it is a criminal offence to be a party to an agreement that unduly prevents or limits competition. The agreement may either be explicit and formal or tacit and informal. It is legal for unions to restrain trade. It is illegal for employers to do the same unless they can get the provisions in a CBA.

Goodenow provides counsel in the course of his duties as Executive Director of the NHLPA. He doesn't work for the owners. But I'm sure you know that already.

Unlike his predecessor, the Dishonourable Al Eagleson.

 

[Wetcoaster]

My problem is with the NHLPA's "influence" on the contracts. They say they want a free market and then get pissed every time a player signs outside what "they" think is market value.

If it were the owners getting together and deciding what "market value" was collectively, it is collusion.

Which, when I bring up one of the NHL's proposals was to negotiate all the player contracts, it is the same thing that the NHLPA does now.(Which wasn't a salary cap)

If the players didn't negotiate each contract as a group of 750 players constantly trying to push the bar up for each other, I would be more inclined to live with a free(r) market.

The NHLPA has never said it wants a free market. One of the few things Goodenow and Bettman seem to agree upon is that the NHL is not a free market and will not be one.

Goodenow knows a free market system doesn't exist in the NHL and, if it did, it would not benefit the union the way the current system does. That's because in a free market every player would become an unrestricted free agent once his contract expired. That would flood the market with players, increasing supply, driving down demand and, as a result, salaries.

"We have a very restrictive system," Goodenow told the Florida Sun-Sentinel. "Players cannot become free agents until they're 31, so you take a top young player, like a Stephen Weiss, and you draft this player when he's 18, 19 years old and he comes to play for the team and they'll have him for 10, 12, 13 years sometimes. And that's a long time. There are tremendous controls."

"The only market in any sport for individual negotiations is the market that's defined by Collective Bargaining," NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman said earlier this summer at the NHL Entry Draft in Raleigh, North Carolina.

As Bill Daly has noted:

"There's an entry level system; there's restricted free agency; there's salary arbitration; there are minimum salaries; and there are qualifying offers. It's a marketplace defined by its rules."

There is no free market in the NHL and that is the last thing that the NHLPA would ever want.

 

[hockeytown9321]

Ten years ago "no salary tax" say the players, now "we love salary taxes" say the same players. Truly amazing.

Ten years ago "salary tax" say the owners, now "we hate salary taxes" say the same owners. Truly amazing.

 

[mooseOAK*]

It's called compromise. Until the owners decide to do the same, we won't have NHL hockey.

They compromised before and Goodenow used every loophole he could find to screw them. They would be even more stupid to do it again.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Ten years ago "salary tax" say the owners, now "we hate salary taxes" say the same owners. Truly amazing.

The owners haven't discounted salary taxes. They know that it won't keep salaries form escalating by itself so they want cost certainty first, salary tax afterwards.

 

[thinkwild]

I dont think Goodenow has ever been upset that a player accepted less than what might be considered his particular marketplace value. In fact, what he has fought for is exactly their right to make that decision. I dont really think its necessary for Goodenow to advise agents on this either. Most are competent enough to understand this quite well.

 

[mooseOAK*]

I dont think Goodenow has ever been upset that a player accepted less than what might be considered his particular marketplace value. In fact, what he has fought for is exactly their right to make that decision. I dont really think its necessary for Goodenow to advise agents on this either. Most are competent enough to understand this quite well.

An agent got decertified for exposing quite the opposite, from tsn.ca:

The main feature of the SCORE system is an E-File. According to the Star-Tribune, any agent can click on the E-File go to a home page for each of the players he represents. The home page features nine options, which include Player Profile, Marketplace Cluster and Searches.

Player Profile is a form that each agent must fill out for each of his clients during the season. The paper says the agent must explain his client's free agent status, the player's potential arguments in upcoming contract negotiations, his team's potential arguments; an analysis of his previous contract; his stats; an analysis of his place in the marketplace; and a recommendation of how much the player should make.

The NHLPA would then use this information to group players in a pool known as the Marketplace Cluster. Any qualifying offers made to players by general managers are posted here, as well as any additional club offers. That way, each agent would know where the market stands as he negotiates for his client.


So no, it isn't just an agent and a player negotiating a deal it is a coordinated effort to ensure that player salaries constantly increase regardless of league revenues.

 

[thinkwild]

Kind of like real estate agents do?

It still amazes me that people hold up this SCORE system as some magical computer program that gives them a mathematical advantage in bargaining. Based on the square root of the games played divided by goals, the derivative of a third degree polynomial is weighted relative to the secret player value coefficient and thus rs owners helpless in negotiation.


So there, the formula is exposed. What is the big deal of this system? Why even mention it as have anything to do with anything? If they put all their offer-counter offers on a bulletin board or the back pages of the ReMax listing, would you be happier?

 

[Wetcoaster]

I dont think Goodenow has ever been upset that a player accepted less than what might be considered his particular marketplace value. In fact, what he has fought for is exactly their right to make that decision. I dont really think its necessary for Goodenow to advise agents on this either. Most are competent enough to understand this quite well.

Goodenow is well-known for taking a strip off an agent if he believes the agent has not done a good job in negotiating a contract. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Wetcoaster]

An agent got decertified for exposing quite the opposite, from tsn.ca:

The main feature of the SCORE system is an E-File. According to the Star-Tribune, any agent can click on the E-File go to a home page for each of the players he represents. The home page features nine options, which include Player Profile, Marketplace Cluster and Searches.

Player Profile is a form that each agent must fill out for each of his clients during the season. The paper says the agent must explain his client's free agent status, the player's potential arguments in upcoming contract negotiations, his team's potential arguments; an analysis of his previous contract; his stats; an analysis of his place in the marketplace; and a recommendation of how much the player should make.

The NHLPA would then use this information to group players in a pool known as the Marketplace Cluster. Any qualifying offers made to players by general managers are posted here, as well as any additional club offers. That way, each agent would know where the market stands as he negotiates for his client.


So no, it isn't just an agent and a player negotiating a deal it is a coordinated effort to ensure that player salaries constantly increase regardless of league revenues.

The agent was de-certified because an employee of his breached a confidentiality agreement. The agent also stated that he understaood the reason for the de-certification.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Kind of like real estate agents do?

It still amazes me that people hold up this SCORE system as some magical computer program that gives them a mathematical advantage in bargaining. Based on the square root of the games played divided by goals, the derivative of a third degree polynomial is weighted relative to the secret player value coefficient and thus rs owners helpless in negotiation.


So there, the formula is exposed. What is the big deal of this system? Why even mention it as have anything to do with anything? If they put all their offer-counter offers on a bulletin board or the back pages of the ReMax listing, would you be happier?

It is funny that you mention real estate because that is exactly the type of market the NHLPA wants. Everyone knowing how much is being paid and what the offers are ensure that prices will go up.

This why real estate is known to be an excellent investment.

 

[Wetcoaster]

They compromised before and Goodenow used every loophole he could find to screw them. They would be even more stupid to do it again.

At the time of the last CBA in 1995 it was generally accepted that the owners had won the battle. In fact Brian Burke was loudly proclaiming this to be so.

It is time to penalize the NHLPA for competence????

 

[thinkwild]

And how is it now different from real estate?

 

[mooseOAK*]

At the time of the last CBA in 1995 it was generally accepted that the owners had won the battle. In fact Brian Burke was loudly proclaiming this to be so.

It is time to penalize the NHLPA for competence????

No, it's time to find a system that works for both sides.

 

[thinkwild]

The owners did win the war, but then lost the peace in the irrational exuberance of wildy growing revenues and expansion fees, as well as the misuse of RFA offer sheets. All problems that have already been corrected.

 

[mooseOAK*]

And how is it now different from real estate?

It isn't, it is similar as I described.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

It's called compromise. Until the owners decide to do the same, we won't have NHL hockey.

Yeah, but people don't seem to understand that negotiations go best when people compromise

 

[s7ark]

They owners are willing to compromise. they have said so many times. on the percentage of salary to revenues they are flexible 54% is just their first offer. If the union came back with 60% they could start talking.

They are also flexible on the UFA age.

All the owners have said is that there must be cost certainty.

By your arguement you could also say the players aren't willing to compromise because they keep saying no salary cap (and the definition of salary cap has now been expanded to encompass everything except what the NHLPA wants)

The players need to realize this is going to happen. The owners will get their cost certainty

 

[mooseOAK*]

Yeah, but people don't seem to understand that negotiations go best when people compromise

Neville Chamberlain couldn't have said it better.

 

[hockeytown9321]

The owners haven't discounted salary taxes. They know that it won't keep salaries form escalating by itself so they want cost certainty first, salary tax afterwards.

Huh? If there's a hard cap there can't be a luxury tax.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Huh? If there's a hard cap there can't be a luxury tax.

We have no idea right now in what form a cap will be.

 

[hockeytown9321]

We have no idea right now in what form a cap will be.

But if the leauge gets its way with a hard cap, there will be no luxury tax.

 

[mooseOAK*]

But if the leauge gets its way with a hard cap, there will be no luxury tax.

We don't know that they will get their way 100% on that issue when all is said and done.

 

[thinkwild]

It isn't, it is similar as I described.

So you seem to be saying then that the system is like real estate, which is what the owners want, which is what they currently have. Great then, we're in agreement. The Scores system is no more unethical or unusual than a real estate listing, and the owners have the system they want.

The owners had the agreement they wanted but then some stupid things messed it up. Since we know where the blame lies, it is easily now adressable and everyone has learned from the mistakes.