GDT: Preseason begins - Rangers at Devils 7 PM MSG+, Devils at Montreal 7:30 PM (split-squad)

[Bleedred]

Just for fun, how about the 2012 team? Not a cup winner, but a finalist, so they fall under ''Cup contender'' don't they?

Peter Harrold/Adam Larsson and Anton Volchenkov? Vatanen is better than all 3 of those guys by quite a lot and he's also better than Bryce Salvador, who played 22 minutes that playoffs and scored more that playoffs than he usually averaged in over one regular season's worth of games. Vatanen was better than most of the D we even had on that team, aside from maybe Greene (2012 version) and Zidlicky.

And I've already seen Zidlicky mentioned and he was a very good defenseman, not a bottom pairing guy. It's fine to compare Vatanen to him, but it's beyond insulting to compare him to guys like Daneyko and Albelin (especially when they were 40 years old), Colin White, Tverdovsky (the version we had), Larsson or god forbid Harrold, Volchenkov and Salvador. As much as we love Dano, he would be the first to tell us that Vatanen is a better talent than he was.

 

[OmNomNom]

Just for fun, how about the 2012 team? Not a cup winner, but a finalist, so they fall under ''Cup contender'' don't they?

Peter Harrold/Adam Larsson and Anton Volchenkov? Vatanen is better than all 3 of those guys by quite a lot and he's also better than Bryce Salvador, who played 22 minutes that playoffs and scored more that playoffs than he usually averaged in over one regular season's worth of games. Vatanen was better than most of the D we even had on that team, aside from maybe Greene (2012 version) and Zidlicky.

And I've already seen Zidlicky mentioned and he was a very good defenseman, not a bottom pairing guy. It's fine to compare Vatanen to him, but it's beyond insulting to compare him to guys like Daneyko and Albelin (especially when they were 40 years old), Colin White, Tverdovsky (the version we had), Larsson or god forbid Harrold, Volchenkov and Salvador. As much as we love Dano, he would be the first to tell us that Vatanen is a better talent than he was.

we ALL know the D corps overachieved during those playoffs. but we were clearly not year-in, year-out cup contenders i think the argument is (or at least, i'm making it out to be) that Vatanen isn't a top pairing D (for a consistent cup contender). in an ideal world, he'd be 2nd pairing, since in a league-wide point of view, he's not a top-62 defender in the league (at least, i don't think so). that doesn't mean he shouldn't be top pairing for us at this current time, but i personally don't think he's a solid top pairing defender. but he's a bit more than "serviceable"

 

[NjDevsRR]

Lets be honest. If we traded someone else instead of Rico for Vatanen then there would not be so much belittling of him by so many Devil fans. It’s quite pathetic to be honest, especially since Vats is clearly the best dman we have.

 

[Bleedred]

Lets be honest. If we traded someone else instead of Rico for Vatanen then there would not be so much belittling of him by so many Devil fans. It’s quite pathetic to be honest, especially since Vats is clearly the best dman we have.

I think it's a combination between that and the fact that so many here are clamoring for some Adam Larsson-like defenseman, who plays ''Good defense''. There are a few on this board who tend to overrate that type of defenseman, even though most of these defenseman (Justin Braun says hello) aren't very good.

 

[NJDpassantino]

Just for fun, how about the 2012 team? Not a cup winner, but a finalist, so they fall under ''Cup contender'' don't they?

Peter Harrold/Adam Larsson and Anton Volchenkov? Vatanen is better than all 3 of those guys by quite a lot and he's also better than Bryce Salvador, who played 22 minutes that playoffs and scored more that playoffs than he usually averaged in over one regular season's worth of games. Vatanen was better than most of the D we even had on that team, aside from maybe Greene (2012 version) and Zidlicky.

And I've already seen Zidlicky mentioned and he was a very good defenseman, not a bottom pairing guy. It's fine to compare Vatanen to him, but it's beyond insulting to compare him to guys like Daneyko and Albelin (especially when they were 40 years old), Colin White, Tverdovsky (the version we had), Larsson or god forbid Harrold, Volchenkov and Salvador. As much as we love Dano, he would be the first to tell us that Vatanen is a better talent than he was.

For me, he is a power play specialist. He isn't a first pair Dman. He isn't good enough defensively to be that and that shows our depth on D. My problem is his 5 on 5 play without the puck on the Dzone. Look at the below example. Nico takes the puck behind the net and Vat is puck watching and rangers D is out alone in front. You can even see where he is looking. That is all positioning. Vats stepped up, Nico took the role as the D and Vat should've taken the center spot and followed his man to the net. I know this is pre-season, but I noticed this all last year as well. Of course you can disagree, I just don't believe he should be relied on that much because his positioning and his breakouts.

 

[Bleedred]

For me, he is a power play specialist. He isn't a first pair Dman. He isn't good enough defensively to be that and that shows our depth on D. My problem is his 5 on 5 play without the puck on the Dzone. Look at the below example. Nico takes the puck behind the net and Vat is puck watching and rangers D is out alone in front. You can even see where he is looking. That is all positioning. Vats stepped up, Nico took the role as the D and Vat should've taken the center spot and followed his man to the net. I know this is pre-season, but I noticed this all last year as well. Of course you can disagree, I just don't believe he should be relied on that much because his positioning and his breakouts.
View attachment 140821

Newsflash:

Most of those kinds of defensemen aren't ''Good enough defensively''. If you ever watched Erik Karlsson or Brent Burns, you'd be saying the same thing.

''They turned the puck over! They lost their man! They're not good at defense!''.

Too many people overrate guys like Adam Larsson and Justin Braun (some on this board did it with Santini last year), that they fool themselves into thinking this type of defenseman is better than Sami Vatanen, because they stay trapped in their end and ''Stay their positions''. Meanwhile, they (not so much Adam Larsson, but absolutely Justin Braun) can't even get out of their own end, so they have no choice but to play in their end and ''Man their positions''. Because they either have no skill or can't skate.

I'm sure the day will soon come where someone will dare say that Steven Santini is better than Sami Vatanen, because he ''Plays defense'' and that he ''Blocks shots'' and ''Plays with a physical edge'' or whatever other dumb and outdated dinosaur philosophy it is that people use. Especially those who are aroused by these types of players.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Newsflash:

Most of those kinds of defensemen aren't ''Good enough defensively''. If you ever watched Erik Karlsson or Brent Burns, you'd be saying the same thing.

''They turned the puck over! They lost their man! They're not good at defense!''.

Too many people overrate guys like Adam Larsson and Justin Braun (some on this board did it with Santini last year), that they fool themselves into thinking this type of defenseman is better than Sami Vatanen, because they stay trapped in their end and ''Stay their positions''. Meanwhile, they (not so much Adam Larsson, but absolutely Justin Braun) can't even get out of their own end, so they have no choice but to play in their end and ''Man their positions''. Because they either have no skill or can't skate.

I'm sure the day will soon come where someone will dare say that Steven Santini is better than Sami Vatanen, because he ''Plays defense'' and that he ''Blocks shots'' and ''Plays with a physical edge'' or whatever other dumb and outdated dinosaur philosophy it is that people use. Especially those who are aroused by these types of players.

That's not entirely true. Yes, Brent Burns is a joke defensively...absolutely terrible. But Karlsson is competent.

Unless you're elite offensively ala Burns, there needs to be some type of reliablilty on the defensive side.

But I not even sure what some are talking about. Vatanen is fine defensively. He blows coverage every now and then, but his positioning is generally good enough. He's certainly not a liability.

 

[OmNomNom]

#1D - usually PMDs, competent defensively to a degree
#2D - not as point producing, ideally better defensively. top defensive defensemen are usually classified as this.
#3D - ???
#4D - ???
#5D - ???
#6D - ???
#7D - ben lovejoy

honestly though, is anyone able to help me with descriptors (in their opinions)

 

[NJDpassantino]

Newsflash:

Most of those kinds of defensemen aren't ''Good enough defensively''. If you ever watched Erik Karlsson or Brent Burns, you'd be saying the same thing.

''They turned the puck over! They lost their man! They're not good at defense!''.

Too many people overrate guys like Adam Larsson and Justin Braun (some on this board did it with Santini last year), that they fool themselves into thinking this type of defenseman is better than Sami Vatanen, because they stay trapped in their end and ''Stay their positions''. Meanwhile, they (not so much Adam Larsson, but absolutely Justin Braun) can't even get out of their own end, so they have no choice but to play in their end and ''Man their positions''. Because they either have no skill or can't skate.

I'm sure the day will soon come where someone will dare say that Steven Santini is better than Sami Vatanen, because he ''Plays defense'' and that he ''Blocks shots'' and ''Plays with a physical edge'' or whatever other dumb and outdated dinosaur philosophy it is that people use. Especially those who are aroused by these types of players.

Your main job as a Dman is to be in position in your Zone and keep the puck out of your net. The role of a Dman hasn't changed. The difference in the game is that people are faster and you need to be more mobile on the back end. Hockey is all about positioning! So staying in your position is good, but good hockey players are able to read plays and get back. Like the example I showed you, Vats stepped up which is fine but he didn't think to take Nicos man and left him all alone in front. Difference between vats and a Burns is that Burns will put up 20 goals and have great positioning as a Dman. You wouldnt have to worry about putting him with a Karlsson because you know he is good in his own zone as well. Thats what separates them from everyone else.

 

[Cheddabombs]

It's one pre-season game holy shit

 

[MartyOwns]

why is this thread still a thing?

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Despite your cherry picking:

Uh, YEAH, Matt Niskanen is THAT much better than Vatanan. In the Dzone, in the Ozone and all over the ice, really. As for your eyes - Open them.

what is he better at, exactly?

he isn't better offensively (0.37 ppg for his career as compared to 0.46 for Vatanen). He has a slightly better CF%.

EVen if he is better, its not like he is WORLDS better like you're making it out to be. That just isn't true.

I would say he is better. +24 and if we are using points as a gauge hes a better 5 on 5 because only 9 of his 40 points came on the pp, where vats had half of his points come from the PP. That is why I say he is a specialist on the point because he does have a cannon of a clapper.

You are getting heated bud. lol Im just saying the mans positioning and his decision making isnt good enough to be a real top 2 pairing. Last year him and Greene were just wrapping the puck around the boards when they felt any sort of pressure on them in the Dzone. That isnt a good way to breakout. Yes, you need to do that at times.

I used Smith because hes only 18 and in one game he just looked poised and had his head up to make breakout plays. Obviously we need a bigger sample size. BTW it has nothing to do with understanding what going around the league. It has more to do with understanding the game.

why are we using +/- in ANY argument in the year 2018? Having a high (or low) +/- is literally meaningless

Vatanen had 32 points last season. 13 were on the PP. So, not "half".

 

[Bleedred]

That's not entirely true. Yes, Brent Burns is a joke defensively...absolutely terrible. But Karlsson is competent.

Unless you're elite offensively ala Burns, there needs to be some type of reliablilty on the defensive side.

But I not even sure what some are talking about. Vatanen is fine defensively. He blows coverage every now and then, but his positioning is generally good enough. He's certainly not a liability.

If you saw around the media last year and even a small but vocal group of Sens fans, many were blaming the Sens implosion on Karlsson having a ''Down year''. I remember he did something last year, probably turned the puck over like Taylor Hall did the other night, it caused a goal, probably a really stoppable goal on Anderson, who was horrific last year. And it was badly dissected after this. Karlsson is better than Burns, but he's also not as good as a guy like Adam Larsson, if you judge defensemen based on how they play in their end.

When Karlsson (and Burns) are on the ice though, play is rarely in the defensive zone.

 

[Bleedred]

Your main job as a Dman is to be in position in your Zone and keep the puck out of your net. The role of a Dman hasn't changed. The difference in the game is that people are faster and you need to be more mobile on the back end. Hockey is all about positioning! So staying in your position is good, but good hockey players are able to read plays and get back. Like the example I showed you, Vats stepped up which is fine but he didn't think to take Nicos man and left him all alone in front. Difference between vats and a Burns is that Burns will put up 20 goals and have great positioning as a Dman. You wouldnt have to worry about putting him with a Karlsson because you know he is good in his own zone as well. Thats what separates them from everyone else.

And a defenseman that plays in his end (no matter what he's doing in it) more than in the other teams end is doing more harm than good. If all you can do as a defenseman is stay in your position in the D-zone, block shots and clear the crease, you're not that good.

 

[Bleedred]

Plus/minus, the critique of a defenseman that isn't some big, brawny, crease clearer, what did I go back to 1993 again?

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Goligoski was -31 last year
Duncan Keith was -29 last year
OEL was -28 last year
Erik Karlsson was -25 last year
Noah Hanifin was -20

should I Go on? I guess these players all stink

 

[Darkauron]

+/- LOL great stat