GDT: Preseason begins - Rangers at Devils 7 PM MSG+, Devils at Montreal 7:30 PM (split-squad)

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NJDpassantino

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so Sami Vatanen is a 3rd pairing DMan?

lol.

I think this is a perfect example of "people don't understand things outside of their little Devils bubble". They actually think that other teams have players like Vatanen on their bottom pairing.

Vatanen is a good player. He is not a #1 DMan, but I would say he is a #2/3 for sure. At least he played that way for much of last year.

Yeah, he is a 3rd pair special teams dman. I am actually criticizing him on his positioning in his own zone? How does that make me "Not understand things outside the Devils bubble"? Our D is far from being good. Butcher is the only one who has a good break out pass and doesnt get caught out of position that often. Ty Smith was even showing he was better than most. I am looking a things that don't show up on score sheets or Corsi. I was excited when we traded for him, but he is lost in his own zone.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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Yeah, he is a 3rd pair special teams dman. I am actually criticizing him on his positioning in his own zone? How does that make me "Not understand things outside the Devils bubble"? Our D is far from being good. Butcher is the only one who has a good break out pass and doesnt get caught out of position that often. Ty Smith was even showing he was better than most. I am looking a things that don't show up on score sheets or Corsi. I was excited when we traded for him, but he is lost in his own zone.

Its clear you don't, because if you actually believe Vatanen is only a 3rd pairing DMan, you're clueless about the rest of the league.

I'm glad we also already have the book on Ty Smith after 1 meaningless preseason game. Good to know.
 

Nocashstyle

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Yeah, he is a 3rd pair special teams dman. I am actually criticizing him on his positioning in his own zone? How does that make me "Not understand things outside the Devils bubble"? Our D is far from being good. Butcher is the only one who has a good break out pass and doesnt get caught out of position that often. Ty Smith was even showing he was better than most. I am looking a things that don't show up on score sheets or Corsi. I was excited when we traded for him, but he is lost in his own zone.

This is such a baffling take that I don't even know where to begin to respond. I'll lay it out bluntly: you're just flat out wrong.
 

billingtons ghost

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what does it matter what he was before he was here? sometimes players need a change of scenery and Anaheim had/has a lot of good DMen

Kyle Palmieri was a bottom 6 player in Anaheim and now is a legitimate 25 goal scorer with an expanded role

...andddd.. sometimes players move up the ladder just because they go from a good team to a bad team.

Not saying Vats didn't step up his game, but let's be clear - you guys piled on with your typical condescending 'lol' and 'wut' BS and the original poster was right -

Look, in reality, the jury is still out - we need to see the guy for a full season before we proclaim him a legit #1 or #2... if only by basis of the fact that he played opposite Greene who made Mark Fayne a legit #2 (albeit a superior Greene, years ago) and got him a job out west before they figured out he was a #7 Dman.

Let's see what Vats does in his own end, away from Greene playing against #1 lines before we start crapping on other people's heads about how great he is.

He was very good for us, but there was absolutely nothing that screamed All-star top-20 defenseman about his play last year.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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...andddd.. sometimes players move up the ladder just because they go from a good team to a bad team.

Not saying Vats didn't step up his game, but let's be clear - you guys piled on with your typical condescending 'lol' and 'wut' BS and the original poster was right -

Look, in reality, the jury is still out - we need to see the guy for a full season before we proclaim him a legit #1 or #2... if only by basis of the fact that he played opposite Greene who made Mark Fayne a legit #2 (albeit a superior Greene, years ago) and got him a job out west before they figured out he was a #7 Dman.

Let's see what Vats does in his own end, away from Greene playing against #1 lines before we start crapping on other people's heads about how great he is.

He was very good for us, but there was absolutely nothing that screamed All-star top-20 defenseman about his play last year.

If you are agreeing with him that Vatanen is nothing but a 3rd pairing DMan then no, he was not right and neither are you. If you say wacky things you should expect to be called out for them, plain and simple.

No one has claimed he is a legitimate #1 DMan or an "All-Star top 20 DMan" on this board...but way to move the goal posts.

Greene made Mark Fayne look good 6-7 years ago. I don't know why that has any bearing on SAmi Vatanen in 2018 when Greene is clearly a declining player.
 

billingtons ghost

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Yeah AT WORST Vat's a good second-pair defenseman, and you could see the impact the last five periods of the Tampa series when we went in the toilet after he got taken out.

There's a difference between 'having no answer' to a physical challenge and going in the toilet. Losing Vats didn't help, but losing his production or defense wasn't the reason.
 

billingtons ghost

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If you are agreeing with him that Vatanen is nothing but a 3rd pairing DMan then no, he was not right and neither are you. If you say wacky things you should expect to be called out for them, plain and simple.

No one has claimed he is a legitimate #1 DMan or an "All-Star top 20 DMan" on this board...but way to move the goal posts.

Greene made Mark Fayne look good 6-7 years ago. I don't know why that has any bearing on SAmi Vatanen in 2018 when Greene is clearly a declining player.

It has lots of bearing, because he's unfortunately still our #1 defenseman, and that should tell you alot about our current defense. Despite the hate and the lost step - he still covers many warts.

I'm not going to split hairs with you - the claim was that Vats is a top-pairing guy 'in the NHL'. The guy said he's more like 3rd pairing... which he was in Anaheim.

The detail here is: On our team, or throughout the league?

On a Stanley Cup Winning squad, Vatanan has no business in the top pairing and should be 3rd pairing - right now he is Johnny Oduya in his absolute prime or Zidlicky or Malakov. Like the guy said: he's a Dman who is part of your first PP unit, and adds offense from the back end - but you sure as hell don't want him out there for a faceoff when the goalie has been pulled and there's 1 minute left in Game 7.

On a playoff team that is challenging he's a decent 2nd pairing guy.

On a bubble team like us - he could get first-pairing minutes but I'd be really happy if someone steps up (like Severson?) and pushes him down to 2nd pairing.
 

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It has lots of bearing, because he's unfortunately still our #1 defenseman, and that should tell you alot about our current defense.

I'm not going to split hairs with you - the claim was that Vats is a top-pairing guy 'in the NHL'. The guy said he's more like 3rd pairing... which he was in Anaheim.

The detail here is: On our team, or throughout the league?

On a Stanley Cup Winning squad, Vatanan has no business in the top pairing and should be 3rd pairing - right now he is Johnny Oduya in his absolute prime or Zidlicky or Malakov. Like the guy said: he's a Dman who is part of your first PP unit, and adds offense from the back end - but you sure as hell don't want him out there for a faceoff when the goalie has been pulled and there's 1 minute left in Game 7.

On a playoff team that is challenging he's a decent 2nd pairing guy.

On a bubble team like us - he could get first-pairing minutes but I'd be really happy if someone steps up (like Severson?) and pushes him down to 2nd pairing.

just totally baseless and ridiculous.

the Caps just won the Cup with Matt Niskanen as their #2 (in ATOI). Is Niskanen all that much better than Vatanen? Not in my eyes.
 

billingtons ghost

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just totally baseless and ridiculous.

the Caps just won the Cup with Matt Niskanen as their #2 (in ATOI). Is Niskanen all that much better than Vatanen? Not in my eyes.

Despite your cherry picking:

Uh, YEAH, Matt Niskanen is THAT much better than Vatanan. In the Dzone, in the Ozone and all over the ice, really. As for your eyes - Open them.
 

glenwo2

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Without Vats on the team, Devils would've never even had a shot at the Playoffs last season. Devils needed to play 'D', too, you know?

Imagine having John Moore and Lovejoy together out on the ice down the stretch instead of Vats doing the heavy lifting?

Oh wait....that did happen at one point....Prior to acquiring him. :sarcasm:
 

OmNomNom

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vatanen is a 2nd pairing D. Compare him and fowler last year

xn9QDJu.png


I don't think Vatanen was even playing 1st pairing minutes in anaheim, was he?

AT BEST, he's a #3 D

that being said, he's very important to us, especially with his mobility. we lack top quality D, which is why we're all so excited for Ty, Butcher, Davies, and Walsh
 

NJDpassantino

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just totally baseless and ridiculous.

the Caps just won the Cup with Matt Niskanen as their #2 (in ATOI). Is Niskanen all that much better than Vatanen? Not in my eyes.

I would say he is better. +24 and if we are using points as a gauge hes a better 5 on 5 because only 9 of his 40 points came on the pp, where vats had half of his points come from the PP. That is why I say he is a specialist on the point because he does have a cannon of a clapper.

You are getting heated bud. lol Im just saying the mans positioning and his decision making isnt good enough to be a real top 2 pairing. Last year him and Greene were just wrapping the puck around the boards when they felt any sort of pressure on them in the Dzone. That isnt a good way to breakout. Yes, you need to do that at times.

I used Smith because hes only 18 and in one game he just looked poised and had his head up to make breakout plays. Obviously we need a bigger sample size. BTW it has nothing to do with understanding what going around the league. It has more to do with understanding the game.
 

billingtons ghost

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just totally baseless and ridiculous.

the Caps just won the Cup with Matt Niskanen as their #2 (in ATOI). Is Niskanen all that much better than Vatanen? Not in my eyes.

Speaking of ridiculous - let's turn it around on you -

You are Barry Trotz, it is June of last year and you're making out your lineup for Game5 of the Stanley Cup.

You slot Vatanan in next to Carlson? Really? I think he makes the lineup,but where? what about on Vegas?
 

glenwo2

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vatanen is a 2nd pairing D. Compare him and fowler last year

xn9QDJu.png


I don't think Vatanen was even playing 1st pairing minutes in anaheim, was he?

AT BEST, he's a #3 D

that being said, he's very important to us, especially with his mobility. we lack top quality D, which is why we're all so excited for Ty, Butcher, Davies, and Walsh


Apples and Oranges.

What he did in Anaheim had no bearing on what he did here.

Bottom line is without Vats, our 'D' would've been ATROCIOUS.
 

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vatanen is a 2nd pairing D. Compare him and fowler last year

xn9QDJu.png


I don't think Vatanen was even playing 1st pairing minutes in anaheim, was he?

AT BEST, he's a #3 D

that being said, he's very important to us, especially with his mobility. we lack top quality D, which is why we're all so excited for Ty, Butcher, Davies, and Walsh


I think the current argument is useless, but I do wonder about this chart.

How should we read this?

From what I can see, Vatanen had higher expected goals for, lower expected goals against, played against higher quality of competition, and played with lower quality of teammates.

To me, that sounds like a better player? :huh:
 
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OmNomNom

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Apples and Oranges.

What he did in Anaheim had no bearing on what he did here.

Bottom line is without Vats, our 'D' would've been ATROCIOUS.
i agree it would've been atrocious, but i don't think he's a top pairing D. on a consistent playoff team, he's a 2nd pairing D/PP specialist

I think the current argument is useless, but I do wonder about this chart.

How should we read this?

From what I can see, Vatanen had higher expected goals for, lower expected goals against, played against higher quality of competition, and played with lower quality of teammates.

To me, that sounds like a better player? :huh:
my point is he's roughly equiv to fowler, who (i believe) played between 1st and 2nd pairing last year
 

NJDevs26

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I get our defense isn’t great but people are also acting like we’re the Weight Islanders where you have default pairings. Shots on goal and goals allowed we were like middle of the pack in both, and that’s with a career backup goalie and a starter that was horrible in 2018. If team stats are average you can’t parrot the line that we have Greene and a ton of #6-7 dmen.

The going from a good team to a bad team argument would have more validity in 2017, the Devils and Ducks had similar records last year. Going from a 101-point team to a 97-point team makes that much of a difference where a guy gets slotted?

There's a difference between 'having no answer' to a physical challenge and going in the toilet. Losing Vats didn't help, but losing his production or defense wasn't the reason.

The last five periods of the series they were straight awful, after they had a solid Game 3 and dominated everything but the scoreboard the first period of Game 4.
 
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Bleedred

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I'm still cleaning up the mess that I made in my pants after reading multiple claims that Vatanen is a bottom pairing D.

I really unloaded my bowels over that one.

The first claim made me laugh a little bit, but the second claim really just made me shit myself.

I wonder if these same people would be calling Adam Larsson (who clearly isn't as good as Vatanen) a top pairing defenseman?
 
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Bleedred

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If Vatanen is a bottom pairing guy on a contender, do you even realize who our bottom pairing guys were on our cup teams? Guys like Ken Daneyko and Tommy Albelin? You're gonna tell me that Vatanen is not better than Dano or Tommy Albelin? Not even the 39 year old 2003 versions of them? The Dano who was scratched for almost half the playoffs that year? Or frickin Oleg Tverdovsky? Really? In 2000 a 36 year old Ken Daneyko and 22 year old rookie Colin White, who was yet to play a full season in the NHL were our two lowest ice time defensemen. 2018 Vatanen is not better than Colin White (LOL) or 2000 (or any era) Ken Daneyko? f***in really? Time to stick a fork in a socket and electrocute myself.
 
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