Preparation trumps skill?

[jj cale]

That's quite a typical North American view, I mean "no special tactics"... - I thought what made them so great was not so much individual skill, I mean there have been many Canadian teams with lots of skill but no such domination. What made that year's team so spectacular was that it really played highly tactical, totally disciplined and amazingly speedy hockey. It was bit like Finland when it came to unified and disciplined team game but combined with amazing individual skill and speed. Have not seen anything like that in WHC since the Red Machine in the 1980's. (And not in many best-on-best tournaments since either.)

And here I always thought it was a typical European view to think of their teams as having all the "skill" and the Canadian teams as "gooning it up", I mean I still here that every tournament on hf from some posters.

That 2015 team was coached decently and had things together but no, there was no special tactics or great goaltending that carried the day or anything like that, they just had far more talent then anyone and were properly motivated, I assume you watched the games.I mean you say they played a speedy game but gee, they played that way by default not because of any special coaches brainstorm, they played speedy because they were speedy!! That's a skill they had in spades with the players they had, why would you have them play some turtle, slow down game when you had such a collection of great players who as a team had that speed and had the passing and finishing skills to turn that speed into a wrecking ball offensively? Me and you could have figured that one out, it didn't take Scotty Bowman.
I am not saying they were not well coached, but coaching was far less an important factor then it was in Finlands victory this year, that stands to reason when a team has an appreciably less amount of talent on hand then that 2015 TC.

 

[llwyd]

And here I always thought it was a typical European view to think of their teams as having all the "skill" and the Canadian teams as "gooning it up", I mean I still here that every tournament on hf from some posters.

That 2015 team was coached decently and had things together but no, there was no special tactics or great goaltending that carried the day or anything like that, they just had far more talent then anyone and were properly motivated, I assume you watched the games

Well, I guess we just have to disagree. And ponder about the mystery why some highly skilled Canadian teams are disorganized and why that legendary 2015 team barely left the puck for anyone else. If you really think any random fan - or possibly a house cat - could have succeeded as their coach, then we just have a different idea about coaching, team play and tactics.

 

[jj cale]

Well, I guess we just have to disagree. And ponder about the mystery why some highly skilled Canadian teams are disorganized and why that legendary 2015 team barely left the puck for anyone else. If you really think any random fan - or possibly a house cat - could have succeeded as their coach, then we just have a different idea about coaching, team play and tactics.

I didn't say a house cat could have coached them, I just gave an example when replying to a poster who said the skill level of the domestic leagues and the N.H.L players is not all that much.Really skilled teams laden with players from the n.h.l can and have wiped out those teams mainly filled with those players before. Of course coaching is important but like I mention in my last post, coaching can be less a factor when you have awesome talent then when you have teams that don't have awesome talent like the Canadian and Finnish teams this year, because neither of them really did. You think the 2015 Canadian team would have lost to Germany this year?Finland did , and I think we can agree the Finnish team were really well coached this year correct? The difference is that Canada was well coached and also had far more talent then this gold medal winning Finnish team . In no way am i trying to put the Finnish team down and I have said as much, I am just stating the truth here. I mean, Finnish posters almost to a man were almost shocked at winning this year, a lot were saying once they won in the quarters that the tournament was already a success due to having only 2 nhl'ers.

sure, competent coaching matters and all teams require that but a team having overpowering skill with good coaching wins out most times and more convincingly then a well coached team team without overpowering skill.

 

[jj cale]

Thought experiment. Let Sweden, Russia, and Canada play with their recent teams but:

Pool Finnish C+/D- European players together with entire pool of top Finnish coaches and randomize then roster spots (tho, building rational teams what comes to players' roles) and staff positions for the Team Finland(s). While I take it as granted that on average such Teams would perform better than expected, its very hard to think and believe that every team roughly equal to Actual Winners (on paper) would just consistently beat those teams of Sweden, Russia, and Canada.

However, I think that every random complement of Finns under coaching of The Guru would perform better than teams operating under other Finnish coaches.

Then, in long series, I would think it plain obvious that ALL teams playing there would slowly adapt and model their game plan, tactics following The Example of The Guru-led Team Finlands of C/D pool Euro-Finns. --> which would surely lead to situation where the advantage coming from that itself would diminish, lowering the impact of The Guru -effect.

There cannot be such level of systematic process of mis-evaluation and mis-scouting by NHL (and related orgs.) that quality of players of The Winners would've been misplaced several tiers too low. Its statistically and logically impossible scenario.

...

Jalonen is NHL-ready.

It will be most interesting to see if he get's a shot over here, he's a very sharp guy.

 

[llwyd]

You think the 2015 Canadian team would have lost to Germany this year?

Oh, absolutely, I do. I mean that level of Canadian skill can fall to Germany on a bad night. They just played so well, with such discipline and cohesiveness that it wasn't remotely to be. That team impressed me even more than the great Sochi team. But even with the best players available Canada can fall to, say, Switzerland. Think of Nagano, of Turin etc. Coaching and tactics are critical factors - a mere list of names does not a team make.

 

[jj cale]

Oh, absolutely, I do. I mean that level of Canadian skill can fall to Germany on a bad night. They just played so well, with such discipline and cohesiveness that it wasn't remotely to be. That team impressed me even more than the great Sochi team. But even with the best players available Canada can fall to, say, Switzerland. Think of Nagano, of Turin etc. Coaching and tactics are critical factors - a mere list of names does not a team make.

They can fall to them on any given night sure.............................but how often? not often, and is that mainly because of coaching that they wouldn't? of course not, it's because they have more skilled players from top to bottom.

And you give Nagano and Turin as examples........but both Canadian teams did not have more skill those years then a few of the teams there, certainly in Nagano they did not, not surprised at all they did not win those years. I went into Nagano thinking the U.S had the most skilled team that year actually.

No one is saying that coaching and tactics is not important, it's that good coaching and tactics with a more skilled team beats good coaching and tactics against a lesser skilled team far more often.

Denying that doesn't make much sense.

 

[Ippenator]

It will be most interesting to see if he get's a shot over here, he's a very sharp guy.

One question is of course if he will get the shot to coach an NHL team. It’s still quite different to coach in a totally different country and culture, and with the smaller rink and the simpler and more straightforward playing styles there.

But still it might also be about if Jalonen even wants to go to the NHL anymore. He isn’t that young anymore, and he will have to change a lot of things for himself and his wife, if he would really get the chance to coach in the NHL. On the other hand he could maybe see it as his last chance for coaching in the NHL and just grab the opportunity, if he really gets one.

 

[jj cale]

One question is of course if he will get the shot to coach an NHL team. It’s still quite different to coach in a totally different country and culture, and with the smaller rink and the simpler and more straightforward playing styles there.

But still it might also be about if Jalonen even wants to go to the NHL anymore. He isn’t that young anymore, and he will have to change a lot of things for himself and his wife, if he would really get the chance to coach in the NHL. On the other hand he could maybe see it as his last chance for coaching in the NHL and just grab the opportunity, if he really gets one.

Good points for sure and I can see him staying put for exactly those reasons you listed. I think we all know why he might come to the N.H.L...........................challenge and big contract.

let's see what wins out, that is.............if he even get's an offer, because if there is one old boys club active in the N.H.L it's in the coaching ranks.

 

[llwyd]

Denying that doesn't make much sense.

Well, obviously I'm not denying it at all - there is a big correlation, naturally. But at the same time, we used to have a long list of great Canadian teams (on paper) in the WHCs that failed, and even some in best-on-best tournaments. Mere skill does not automatically translate into success: many of those teams were far superior to the eventual champions but did not always come even close. And there is the crucial role of coaching and tactics.

Anyway, you sometimes sound like Finnish fans are maybe bit aggravating to you - our legendary commentator Mertaranta (of whom I'm not the biggest fan) is quite an agitator against Canada, though he has been better lately. So, this is one factor why Canada is not appreciated by all in Finland. And we are hyperbolic people, both in despair (much more often) and in triumph. So, not always good winners Kind of a cross between Scandinavia and Russia, tbh.

 

[jj cale]

Well, obviously I'm not denying it at all - there is a big correlation, naturally. But at the same time, we used to have a long list of great Canadian teams (on paper) in the WHCs that failed, and even some in best-on-best tournaments. Mere skill does not automatically translate into success: many of those teams were far superior to the eventual champions but did not always come even close. And there is the crucial role of coaching and tactics.

Anyway, you sometimes sound like Finnish fans are maybe bit aggravating to you - our legendary commentator Mertaranta (of whom I'm not the biggest fan) is quite an agitator against Canada, though he has been better lately. So, this is one factor why Canada is not appreciated by all in Finland. And we are hyperbolic people, both in despair (much more often) and in triumph. So, not always good winners Kind of a cross between Scandinavia and Russia, tbh.

You think so? I've been watching the WHC since about 1977 and I'd be hard pressed to think of a long list of Canadian talent laden juggernauts that have been at that thing over the years.Most Canadian teams have been a put together at the last moment mixed bag of less then stellar guys, mixed in with some competent players along with a couple or maybe 3 stars or semi stars, as an informed fan you should be aware of the participation and composition of Canadian teams at the WHC over the years. hell, there is non stop talk every year here among fans on why the participation rate from Canads's best available players is so bad.

And as far as the best on best tournaments go that only backs up my claim, sure there have been losses(how can you possibly win them all?) but Canada has won the majority of them.

Skill doesn't always trump for sure, the Soviet Union lost to a bunch of college kids and to Poland one time.

And sometimes far too much is made of tactics and coaching too!! I mean, no matter how skilled a team is it just has a bad day at the office, they just aren't on their game..............it happens!! And sometimes a goalie just robs them, that happens with surprising regularity. Hockey ain't basketball, you can actually stop the puck from going in once it is shot.

Of course coaching matters, but let's be honest, skill is even more important most times. I mean, if say Canada came into the wHC with it's best available players every year and the other teams did not they would be the favourite every single damn year and would win way more often. Hell, if Finland came into the whc every year with all their best players while others didn't they would be the favourite every single year and would win far more often.....................and it wouldn't matter much who was coaching them. Skill matters more most times, not all the time, but most times. That's the way it is in sports, you know that as well as I.

You say maybe it looks like Finnish fans aggravate me and there is some truth to that, sometimes they do, but I don't think anymore then Canadian fans sometimes seem to aggravate you.

Like me for instance,lol

By the way, who is this Mr.Merteranta you speak of? what's his schtick anyway?

 

[llwyd]

You say maybe it looks like Finnish fans aggravate me and there is some truth to that, sometimes they do, but I don't think anymore then Canadian fans sometimes seem to aggravate you.

Like me for instance,lol

By the way, who is this Mr.Merteranta you speak of? what's his schtick anyway?

Oh, you? Absolutely not, you are always reasonable and base your arguments to facts. Sure, often I might still disagree, but you know your stuff and don't troll. Mertaranta is the guy that about 50-55% of the whole population of Finland heard commentating the final - and he has been doing it since the early 90's. So, crazily influential - and irrationally against North American hockey, especially in the past. He is more reasonable these days though, one has to admit.

 

[jj cale]

Oh, you? Absolutely not, you are always reasonable and base your arguments to facts. Sure, often I might still disagree, but you know your stuff and don't troll. Mertaranta is the guy that about 50-55% of the whole population of Finland heard commentating the final - and he has been doing it since the early 90's. So, crazily influential - and irrationally against North American hockey, especially in the past. He is more reasonable these days though, one has to admit.

So he is like your Don Cherry only with way more airtime to influence the people's thinking then?

 

[llwyd]

So he is like your Don Cherry only with way more airtime to influence the people's thinking then?

Pretty much exactly...

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

So he is like your Don Cherry only with way more airtime to influence the people's thinking then?

That's mertaranta

 

[jj cale]

That's mertaranta

lol!! hey, this guys all right. Well, he might grind on the nerves after awhile, he's quite over the top, there are pros and cons to that.

 

[jj cale]

Pretty much exactly...

Got it

 

[stonec]

And as far as the best on best tournaments go that only backs up my claim, sure there have been losses(how can you possibly win them all?) but Canada has won the majority of them.

They haven't. If we limit the time frame to the past 20 years, Canada has won five World Championship tournaments. That's one win ever four years. Meanwhile, Czechs have won the same number, five times, Russia and Sweden four and Finland two. In all-time tournament wins USSR/Russia is leading with 27 wins over Canada's 26.

There was also a period between 2010-2014 when Canada failed to reach the medal games five years in a row, which is an exceptionally bad record. I remember especially the 2012 tournament where there was some rumors about players spending more time in Helsinki night clubs than in practices. If that's due to sloppy coaching or other issues, I don't know. But those Canadian teams in years 2010-2014 were easily good enough on individual skill to win gold every single time, yet the failed to reach the top four.

 

[jj cale]

They haven't. If we limit the time frame to the past 20 years, Canada has won five World Championship tournaments. That's one win ever four years. Meanwhile, Czechs have won the same number, five times, Russia and Sweden four and Finland two. In all-time tournament wins USSR/Russia is leading with 27 wins over Canada's 26.

There was also a period between 2010-2014 when Canada failed to reach the medal games five years in a row, which is an exceptionally bad record. I remember especially the 2012 tournament where there was some rumors about players spending more time in Helsinki night clubs than in practices. If that's due to sloppy coaching or other issues, I don't know. But those Canadian teams in years 2010-2014 were easily good enough on individual skill to win gold every single time, yet the failed to reach the top four.

Yes they have,The WHC is not a best on best tournament, everyone knows that.Throw it out the window as it doesn't apply, no need to talk about the results there, they are not applicable here.Why are you bringing that tournament up here?

If you did a poll here asking if the WHC is a best on best tournament you wouldn't get a single vote here saying it is or was. (well, it seems it might get yours though why I don't know)

I said best on best and yes they have won the majority of them. Now some may argue that the Canada cups/world cups were always in Canada but the whc is also always in Europe and fans from Europe don't seem to mind that so I won't get into any arguments about location here concerning them.Location of a tournament never seems to be a problem when things are held in Europe so I don't see why it is when they are held over here.

The fact remains Canada has won the majority of all best on best challenges, that's just the facts.

I made it clear in that post that I was talking about best on best tournaments..............not the WHC, which isn't.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

You think the 2015 Canadian team would have lost to Germany this year?

They did come close against France.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

2015 Canada was awesome indeed, I agree it would have been difficult to beat a dream team like that.

Let's not forget that the 2015 team was basically a typical WHC Team Canada-plus four players (only one of whom played in the Olympics the previous year).

 

[jj cale]

They did come close against France.

Close games can happen.

In that tournament they beat German10-0, Latvia 6-1, The Czechs twice 2-0 and 6-3, Sweden-6-4, Swiss 7-2, Austria10-1, and Russia 6-1. They had a goal differential of 49-14.

It was for all intents and purposes a beat down, they were just in a different league.

 

[RageQuit77]

*reasonably

 

[jj cale]

*reasonably

What can I say? I'm honoured to say the least !!

This must have took a fair bit of work!!

Once again........................well deserved gold this year. I mean, against what I would call some pretty damn heavy odds you guys would absolutely not die nor quit, though I would have loved nothing more the a Team Canada victory Finland just proved they were the better team this year. It's a performance that I and others will remember no question.

 

[Gold Standard]

Let's not forget that the 2015 team was basically a typical WHC Team Canada-plus four players (only one of whom played in the Olympics the previous year).

correct.

and with 6 who would go on to play in the WCoH a year and a bit later. 7 if you count Seguin, but injury forced him out. but I think O'Reilly was a replacement for Seguin at the aforementioned WCoH, so either way, the count is 6.

but you are right. I would rate the 2015 WHC Team Canada a typical WHC TEAM CANADA ++

 

[Sentinel]

All the preparation in the world is worthless if your goalie doesn't stand on his head.

Russian goalie stood on his head. If not for Vasya, the game would've been 4-0 Finland.