Discussion in 'Soccer' started by Jussi, Feb 3, 2018.
Next in line in Prem rankings would get Europa.
This seems more like a 4-2-3-1
Yes, as I said, 4-2-3-1, but that's really close to a 4-2-2, just the second striker, shadow striker or however you call it is playing more like a 10.
I believe it depends on a combination of things. Only 7 teams are allowed to be in Europe. So 5 CL + 2 EL or 4 CL + 3 EL.
Thrilled for Deulofeu. Hopefully this is just the start of things to come.
Their carabao cup spot would essentially get dropped and England would have 5CL + 2 EL spots.
Basically if you qualify for CL and EL or EL multiple times based on purely domestic performance, you keep the highest spot and the lower one(s) filter down the table.
If you qualify for the CL based on continental performance your domestic spot doesn’t get passed down and is just forfeited.
Finally got some time to watch the games yesterday. First and foremost I want to say that Red fans have every right to be angry on that one. Unacceptable that Kane was rewarded a penalty by being offsides and the second was a completely **** La Liga dive from Lamela. Was there some contact there? Sure, but as I said in the Hazard penalty against us, not enough to be warrant a call. Neither Hazard nor Lamela were in prime scoring chances, as both had their backs to the ball. Awful refereeing displayed here, Klopp has every right to criticize them.
As for Chelsea, both Edo and I in the past have mentioned that their team is full of scrubs. Pedro was an awful buy and since Mourinho left they've been buying the same players like Willian. Are these bad players? Definitely not, but they're not gamebreakers either. You can honestly say now that Arsenal actually have more dangerous options than Chelsea, which you couldn't a couple years ago. Only player they have is Hazard and he's been heavily linked to a move PSG for the past four years, Atletico last year, and Madrid the past two. Something is going to break and if Chelsea continues to fall, it is hard to see their best player want to stay. Footballers, especially ones with serious talent have a short attention span as we've seen with Sanchez and others. If you're not winning, they want out as soon as possible (like we'll see Icardi soon).
Very hard to blame Conte because it sounds like they're not giving him the funds or he's not in full control of the transfer targets. If he's not in full control, then how the hell is he able to get the players he wants? Never have I ever seen his managerial record have such a Mourinho type of squad as I did last night against Watford. The likes of Pedro, Willian, Moses, Bakayoko, Fabregas, and Drinkwater are not going to create goalscoring for you. There is absolutely zero creative instincts on this squad except for Hazard and Zappacosta. And Chelsea's targets have been wildly strange too, in the past they would go after a creative Spaniard or solid pacy Italian from other leagues, but now they want Peter ****ing Crouch, got Drinkwater, and Ross Barkley? Wow. Morata was definitely a horrible buy which I predicted on here it would've been and Conte deserves blame for that, but don't take away his power after just one player...
By all means fire Conte Abram, I would LOVE him on Arsenal.
Really don’t think Conte leaves until after the Barca matchup.
Just as I was getting over it I got annoyed again thinking of the jobbing in that game.
I feel like Conte coming in at Arsenal would be too big of a culture shock for that team to work effectively right away. I also don't think they have the players for his system.
Conte just won't mesh with England long-term. Too many games congested together for his training regime to work long-term.
Definitely could not see Conte fitting at Arsenal, and that's even before allowing that he may bear some of the the responsibility for the shape Chelsea's in
"Edo and I". Well if that doesn't make it so I don't know what does.
I won't get into Willian apart from informing you that Willian came in the first season Mourinho came back. As for Pedro, he's nowhere near a "scrub" and he was in no way, shape or form an awful buy. Here are some facts about Pedro with Chelsea:
He only cost 27 million which is a bargain for a proven player like him. Comparing him to Arsenal signings, he only cost about twice as much as Elneny who came in at the same time and compare what each has done for their respective clubs. Or look at Xhaka who was almost 20 million more than Pedro.
Pedro has delivered for Chelsea and that's while being rotated and played in multiple positions including out of position. His first season he had 7 goals and 2 assists in only 24 starts. Then last season, when Chelsea won the league, he delivered 9 goals and 9 assists in 26 starts. Considering the last two seasons and projecting out this season he's on pace for 8 goals and 4 assists. And that's just in the league. Last season he delivered 4 goals and 2 assists in the FA Cup as Chelsea went all the way to the Final.
Lord only knows what you mean by "gamebreaker", but Pedro's scored trophy winning goals against Sevilla and Shaktar Donetsk. He also scored the opener in the CL Final win over Man Utd in 2011. He's also scored in el Clasico wins like when he completely embarrassed HFBoards LB God Marcelo.
Hell, considering all that he might just be good enough for Templar FCs bench.
Conte is better off with Azzurri job.
Remember when Edo and SEPH said Pedro was just a shit Theo Walcott? That was fun
He prefers the day-to-day work as a club manager.
Pedro is a utility player. I never once called him bad, even in my post I said all players on Chelsea are good, but not gamebreakers. Gamebreakers are ones that can open a game and score that important game-tying-goal or game-winning-goal deep within matches (at a consistent rate IE Messi). Someone like Sanchez would have gamebreaking talent or Hazard. Besides those two, Chelsea has nobody else as everyone is either a good BxB player not possessing the skill needed such as Willian and Pedro, or everyone else are way too inconsistent to be effective such as Morata. I mean I absolutely hate Oscar, but his dives around the edge of the box for free kicks displayed a better gamebreaking ability than Pedro has ever shown.
Good that he scored prime time goals on an insanely deep club against the likes of Sevilla, Donetsk, and United. Sadly none of those teams are the 2011 version of Bayern Munich or City of the world. And if he was as good as you make him out to be, Barca would have never sold him to begin with.
There is a difference between selling Sanchez to Arsenal when you get Suarez and Neymar instead of selling Pedro because you guys brought in Turan (who has turned out to be a major bust). It's simply quality versus quantity we're talking about here and Pedro is in the latter category (again doesn't mean he is a bad player, just not a great one). As for him starting on my bench, sorry, but that is a no go. My team's bench and squad is filled with a bunch of youthful rascals and misfits where Pedro's maturity would just not fit. @cgf can mention how much the mature players destroyed the Colorado Avalanche of last year. My team is all about Nike shoes, Selena Gomez, and eating Tide pods.
Lets be honest, Walcott wasn't given a fair shake and he still has produced 6 goals and 6 assists in 19 games. That is damn good and better than Pedro's 5 goals and 5 assists in 32 games. Pedro gets much more influential minutes to produce while Walcott always starts from the bench. Granted Pedro is in the CL, while Walcott is in Europa which might skew the stats. Still, that doesn't mean Theo sucks or anything like that, he is still a much more dangerous goalscorer for me.
Mourinho screwed Chelsea. Put De Bruyne in this Chelsea squad and it makes a huge difference. Keep Lukaku, don't buy Morata, and you have money for a high-end RWB.
Agreed, which is why I don't get the Conte blame (from the English media). He might not just fit Chelsea, but I think the players and whoever organizes your transfers are more to be blamed than Conte.
Didn't you guys give up on Salah as well?
Yep, also Mourinho's fault. Emenalo was great at finding relatively undiscovered talent.
When you look at the talent of Chelsea, it's clear Conte overachieved last season, mostly due to his system catching England off-guard. Now that clubs are more comfortable against the back 3, and his midfield due/trio being worse without Matic, he doesn't really stand a chance.
There's no true B2B midfielder that needs IMO, and Hazard is typically on his own for creating a lot of the attack.
Chelsea have these issues because of the constant change in managers. There is no clear vision, so when players are bought, they often aren't ideal fits, and then in 1-2 years there is a completely different system in place.
That lineup would challenge for any trophy year in and year out.
Arsenal are a club that gets a bad reputation for me because of it's supporters. Always coming up with crazy bullshit (at least online) and it's been going for over a decade.
Here is what you said. You said Chelsea's "team is full of scrubs." You immediate next line started with "Pedro was an awful buy." So no, you don't call him "bad". You called him a "scrub" and "an awful buy", neither of which are remotely true. That's not to mention you've now called him a "BxB player not possessing the skill needed" and a "utility player", both of which are again ridiculous statements.
As for being a "gamebreaker" or not, I provided examples. Like I said, trophy-winning goals. And Messi? Who comes close to Messi? No one you mentioned. Oscar?
Bayern? What are you talking about? They don't even play Bayern. As for the goals I referenced, Messi wasn't scoring them. Moving on though, he's scored or had an assist against Arsenal, Roma, Spurs x 2, United and defending champions Leicester. And some of those goals or assists were match winners like the match winning assist against Spurs or the match winning goal in the route of United. That's not to mention all the work Pedro does off the ball. Ask any Chelsea supporter around how important Pedro was last season. He wasn't their most important player, but he played a notable role in their winning the title and more than that of a "scrub", "awful buy" "BxB player possessing the skill needed" or a "utility player".
So if Pedro was as good as I make him out to be Barça wouldn't have sold him and yet Sanchez, who you're referencing here, was only sold because Suarez and Neymar came in but Pedro was sold because Turan came in? They both were sold because they both wanted to leave, simple as that. The difference is that the club was more than happy to sell Sanchez where as they were willing to keep Pedro. Either way both were making for Suarez and Neymar. Pedro's sale wasn't a result of Turan. In fact he left before Turan could even play.
Pedro isn't a "quantity" player. He's very clearly a "quality" player. Yes, there are different levels of quality, but Pedro is at a level higher than you give him credit for.
Yeah, your team is overrated, in bad taste and not well thought out.
No doubt Arsenal supporters are effin nuts. Watch ArsenalFanTv, one day they stomp Crystal Palace and say how much Mkh and Auba are going to improve the club....just for the next week to get stomped on by Swansea and have majority of the same fans yelling and criticizing "why are we buying Mkh and Auba when we need defenders". I mean they are not entirely wrong that we need defenders, but it's just hilarious to me the flip-flopping they conduct. They're overly passionate, where emotions get the better of logic I guess. Well, I dislike Chelsea so I would call them "full of scrubs again" just like how you'll call Real Madrid a scrub team. It's a tongue-in-cheek comment. Pedro was an awful buy because Pedro is the type of player who is not needed at Chelsea nor in Conte's system. Granted Pedro was bought in the Mouinho era and was a Mouinho type of player, he just doesn't fit that squad now. They have too many of the same players as even @bleedblue1223 mentions in post #545. Now if they were to sell Willian and the rest of the BxB scrubs with the same strengths and weaknesses, then by all means keep Pedro. But as of now, I would much prefer Willian than Pedro (this is a personal choice though).
Maybe it was wrong terminology to call wingers BXB, but a lot of Chelsea players are ones that have limited skill with outstanding backtracking and determination. Pedro, Willian, and practically their whole midfield are these same type of blokes. So in a way, I am not wrong in calling Pedro and rest of Chelsea's players "utility players". Once more, we can see that a lot of them are remnants of the Mouinho's era.
You're getting confused, I used Messi as an example of gamebreaking talent and then used two more examples in Sanchez and Hazard as others. I wasn't comparing them to Messi, just saying that all three can tie games late or win stalemates.
What does Pedro do if he's not scoring? Yes he backtracks quite consistently, but after that what's there? He's quite useless if you want to use him as a LW because he simply doesn't have the top talent you want a player in that position. You want someone more creative and maybe a player more riskier than Pedro. That is probably one reason why I don't fancy him, he plays a way too safe of a game. And who cares about trophy-winning goals. Walcott and Ramsey have trophy winning goals and you wouldn't take neither of them on "Independent State of Barcelona" anyway.
I am saying that he scored against weak competition, he probably wouldn't come close to scoring if Barca played against either Bayern or Man City of 2011. I've already mentioned that he's a good "utility player" by the amount of work he does off the ball. Not one who makes goals or creates goals at a consistent basis. As for the rest of the teams...Arsenal sucks defencively, Roma was building something good just to be let down by awful coaching, Spurs are the worst of the good clubs, and United had a "about to retire" SAF as manager. Those clubs are not helping your case
I actually have a question for you, which wingers would you take Pedro over in a big CL Final game?
They both wanted to leave because they were behind the Barca depth chart for getting World Class players such as Suarez and Neymar. That is true. However, Pedro would have to fight playing time with Suarez, Neymar, and Turan once AM was unbanned by UEFA. Spending a solid 31 million for Turan in the same position as Pedro wasn't the main reason, but greatly influenced his desire to leave. So in a way, Pedro left due to the Turan purchase.
Pedro is a dime-a-dozen player that you can find in almost every transfer window if your team wanted a akin player of similar strengths/weaknesses. That is why a labeled him as a quantity player and will continue to label him as a quantity player. He doesn't provide a lot of skills you want necessary for a top LW to have, he's good to come off the bench just like Walcott is to replace your squad's tired top-tier Left Winger. Or he's a player you want to start in a defencive setup. You most definitely do not want to start him every single EPL match since he lacks skill and creativity when it comes to scoring goals. As for my team, you're clearly underrating them. 99% of my fantasy draft players have all grown to exponential levels this season proving that I know what I am talking about. You just don't want to give me credit because a couple years down the road my Knight team is going to kick your grandpa team's ass.
@bleedblue1223 Lad, that isn't a title contending team, that team is a potential World Cup group stage winning team. Thank the Heavens for Mourinho. My God what if Conte inherited that. Wow.
And we'd still have Oscar money lol. Bizarre times being a Chelsea fan. First it got really easy when Roman came. Then once the old-guard got old, there was a dip, but eventually exciting once they brought in a bunch of young talented guys. Then a roller-coaster of not figuring out how to integrate them in, but winning trophies makes things ok. Now, we have this kind of mess every few seasons, when we could've had a 2nd core like the Lampard/Terry/Drogba/Essien/etc. days.
Well whatever your reasoning for calling a team scrubs, that's generally not how the term is used. I also wouldn't call Madrid a team of scrubs nor have I.
Pedro being an awful buy because he doesn't fit into Conte's system is non-starter because as you just said, he was bought before Conte came on board. That said it's also flat out wrong. Of course he fits into Conte's system and he's fit in at multiple positions. Generally though as more of an inside forward he can attack off the ball and he's very good at moving into channels. He also helps press in the opponents end which makes it easier for the wingbacks to do their job. Of course evidence of Pedro actually fitting into in Conte's system is last season as a whole. Pretty evident and obvious he fits.
Chelsea having similar players in the squad may be true, but that doesn't make them "utility" players. And even a player is a "utility" player, whether he should be or not is a different story. By your personal definition Jordi Alba was a "utility" player at Barça last season under Enrique. However as this season is evidence he should be anything but a "utility" player.
The point still stands. Neither of them come close to Messi and that's not to mention coming up big in big matches.
And you can keep bringing up Sanchez all you want. Fact of the matter is that Pedro delivered more when the chips were down at Barça than Sanchez ever did.
As I've already stated, Pedro presses high and he makes good runs. He's also a largely unselfish player who can hold up the ball and set up his teammates. Last season in league play he had one fewer assist than Sanchez and as many as Ozil but in far fewer minutes.
That's a matter of personal preference. Sure you may want someone more creative than Pedro and I don't think that's a bad thing. However that doesn't mean it's necessary. You can have a more creative player, ala Hazard, on the other flank. And swapping him for a more creative player might mean losing other important aspects of a team's game like pressing or a player able to make runs. It's good to have a player like Pedro in your squad.
Walcott? Seriously? You're going to say "who cares" about Pedro scoring a trophy-wining goal against Sevilla or Shakhtar, both teams you essentially wrote off, and now you're mentioning Walcott who's trophy-winning goal was against... Aston Villa. Gotcha.
What does Barça have to do with it?
Sevilla, Shakhtar, United, Madrid... that is not weak competition nor was it at the time. Bayern of 2011? We won the CL in 2011 and Bayern didn't even make the final. Pedro scored in the Final that year. As for the rest of the teams, they're still all good sides and in the top 10% of teams that Chelsea faces in the respective competitions.
Irrelevant question as it has nothing to do with what you were saying. You're now simply trying to move the goalposts, rather stupidly I might add, to try change the argument because you're consistently wrong post after post. There are multiple better questions that are actually suited to the discussion. Here are a couple of potential examples:
Looking back at the Summer of 2015, considering available players on the market and Chelsea at that time, who should they have bought instead of Pedro?
Looking at Chelsea's squad right now and considering revamping it, would you keep Pedro or sell him? If you would sell him who do you think Chelsea could bring in as a replacement?
Hardly. Turan's position in the team at the time wasn't necessarily going to compete with Pedro much if at all. In fact he played multiple positions, but few times back then would he have been competing with Pedro. Furthermore, like I said, the club wanted Pedro to stay. And on top of that Pedro would have easily beat him for a place assuming they were competing for the same place.
Pedro isn't a dime-a-dozen player much less one you can find in every window. Were that the case there'd be more Pedros out there putting in the performances he has throughout his career. The fact is there aren't. You might find players who have a similar skill set, but not a lot at Pedro's level.
Why you keep referring to him as a LW is beyond me. He's split his time on both flanks and for the majority of his career he's played more on the right. You'd actually know that if you actually ever watched him play.
Yeah, Pedro "lacks skill and creativity when it comes to scoring goals". That's why last season he delivered 9 goals and 9 assists, in far fewer minutes than say Ozil, in Chelsea's title-winning campaign. That's why he started a majority of the time for many seasons with Barça because they were playing a defensive setup.
Yeah, and if shit grows exponentially it's still shit. The fact of the matter is that your team would struggle against many of the sides in the draft. My team would shred yours. As for your players, some have actually regressed. Isco, Griezmann, Alli, Calhanoglu and Alaba aren't as good as they were last season. Tah, Gaya and Dahoud are probably only as good. By your definition, the likes of Bernadeschi and Dahoud are "utility players". That's not even mentioning your bench, which when you consider your starting XI should have some talent able to step in and probably start, which is pretty awful. As for a couple of years down the road, it wouldn't even matter because you'd be losing so badly for so many years to my team that I'd be in a position to buy new players to supplement the team as needed. That said my team's bench and younger players while not perfect aren't bad. Many of my backup players are actually doing something in real life as compared to some of your future world beaters. On top of that my players actually fit with my team and tactics and it doesn't look like I decided to draft players based on their proclivity to eat Tide pods.
Man, you're taking this really personally. Okay I get, you love Pedro and would spend 80 million to get him back Barca. If that's the case, so be it, like I care. He's a pretty damn useless player considering the way you want him to be used. For example, anybody using him as an inside forward is asking for hurt on the scoreboard. I agree with everything else said though.
Why do think labeling someone as a utility player is deemed as such a negative light? I said his best attributes are ones of that in a utility player and that is something needed on squads. However, Chelsea has a ****load of them and I would consider selling Pedro as he's useless comparing to Willian, who is a better option. As I said before, if Chelsea wants to sell others and keep Pedro, that would make him less useless since all the rest of the utility players would be gone creating a demand for him. It is simple economics here, Chelsea is suffering because they have too many Pedros' and not enough everything else. I haven't watched Barca in quite some time so I cannot comment on Alba, my apologies.
Again you're taking it too literal in a sense. I can bring up Sanchez because he's easily the superior player and AINEC. I don't know where the "fact of the matter" comes from. Barca is in the past, lets stop going back to history to talk about players here and now in the present.
Unsustainable and this season is proving just that, he doesn't have the skills or consistency offencively to be relied on to carry the load as Ozil and Sanchez can do throughout decades. I agree, having Pedro isn't entirely bad in the line up, but considering we're talking about Pedro in Chelsea and not Pedro in Barca, your argument continues to be weak. Willian has been better throughout their careers in London and Chelsea just has too many of those players. Chelsea just got their ass kicked in the past two games scoring little to zero goals, Pedro isn't helping them which is why I said they need a top-tier LW/CM/CAM.
Again, you're taking this too literal, I only brought up Walcott to show you that "trophy winning goals" is pretty useless stat and doesn't justify how good or bad a player is.
Doesn't mean that Bayern wasn't one of the best teams that year. Great teams get upset all the time, your history against Drogba and Chelsea should ring a few bells.
OMG, dude seriously? I wasn't trying to "stupidly change the argument after every wrong post" as you put it. I was trying to understand how high you have him in your mind. I was trying openly understand where you're coming from which is one trait you clearly don't have...
1) Well, Chelsea has the funds to buy de Brune for instance (of course for obvious reasons that didn't happen). Sterling is better than Pedro and would be much needed at Chelsea now. Martial would have been better. Draxler would have been the same. Doug Costa would have been better. Son would have been better. Perisic would have been better (lesser amount as well). I would take Pedro over Depay, Gervinho, and Thauvin for sure. Today's version of Thauvin though? Definitely not.
2) As I've mentioned, Willian for me is the better option. I think he fits that team better. I would sell Moses, Drinkwater, and Pedro, while keeping Willian and Fabregas as all of those "utility players". But if another Chelsea fan preferred Pedro and wanted to sell Willian I would have no problems with that either. Just get rid of all these same players if you guys want to improve.
Of course the club wanted Pedro to stay, they have a different priority than the player has. They want their club as deep as possible, while Pedro wanted to play and saw the incoming transfers, especially as Turan as competition for minutes. Lets be honest with ourselves, Pedro would have not gotten many minutes if he decided to stay.
I've already answered in the question you proposed to me that there are always better players available. Of course you need to pony up the cash to grab them, but it is something Chelsea absolutely possesses.
You're right that Pedro can play multiple positions, makes sense why I've used the term utility player at least forty times. His main position is LW, no? Or you trying to disagree with facts?
Bad comparsion, Ozil is normally known for being a extremely one-footed player, while having his best strengths in the playmaking category. Because of how one-footed he and how good of a play maker he is, Pedro should have more goals than him in a regular basis. Ozil versus Isco is probably better argument.
Of course your team would kick the crap of mine this season...your team is built to win titles for the next couple of years, especially when you were gifted Messi or Neymar (forgot which one). My team however a couple years down the road will be winning World Cups. In a sense I went down the "lose the battle, win the war" method. Something you and your Napoleonian squad doesn't understand. Hell yeah I got utility players, however my utility players kick Pedro's ass. Dahoud would run circles around Pedro and Bernardeschi is what Pedro is, just with skill.
Tide pod eating is just the misfit nature of my squad, as being young and rebellious, but having the talent to dominate. They know they're good and because of that I challenge them to become even better which again 99.9% of them are developing in a upward trajectory. If put my squad on the stock market, I would have Elon Musk's networth.
Everything else is your opinion.