GWT: Premier League Matchday 37

[koyvoo]

 

[Havre]

That is the problem with the old Mourinho it seems. He has always been a pragmatic and someone that valued a strong defence, but it was more balanced in his younger days. Sometimes he would surprise going after teams. Other times he would completely give away possession etc. - now he seems to always drop back to the safe alternative - the "negative" one. The element of surprise - what partly made him special - seems to be gone. And of course the machine like effectiveness is also partly gone...

 

[Stray Wasp]

Yeah I mentioned that...only for @Stray Wasp to tell us five years down the road how they spent all that money on awful buys with hiring Pardew as eventual manager after they fire Wagner because they're going to slip sometime in the next two seasons...

We're getting rid of our manager for a reason!

I work with lots of Arsenal fans. Although they won the FA Cup in 2017, you'd think from the way they complain that every home game they were stabbed in the eyes by a cackling Arsene Wenger wielding a red hot poker.

Imagine, then, if you dare, Arsenal fans hearing their chief exec saying, 'We're in the relegation zone, and we can't afford to increase our wage bill because we're overstretched from having signed Salomon Rondon, Matt Phillips, Nacer Chadli, and the 36/37 year old version of Gareth Barry in addition to the vast sums we were already paying James Morrison, Chris Brunt and Claudio Yacob'.

I suspect North London would run of out lighter fuel and matches. And the area's undertakers would enjoy their best business since the Second World War.

Now consider West Bromwich Albion's stay in the Premier League. In 2010/11, as a newly-promoted side, they spent 68% of their turnover on wages to finish eleventh, scoring 56 goals along the way. Since then:

- their wage bill has consistently been in the 75-80% of turnover bracket.
- they enjoyed one eighth place finish (the second half of that season they won four games out of 19, taking 16 points), and two tenth place finishes.
- their best cup run was to the 6th round of the FA Cup- where they lost to near rivals Aston Villa
- three players scored 10 or more EPL goals in a single season during that period. One was Lukaku, on loan from Chelsea, another was Berahino, a product of their youth system.
- the team as a whole has broken the 50-goal barrier once.
- their season home average attendance has never surpassed the 26,000 mark (which was last attained in 2004/5)

What we are talking about here is stagnation. Mind, it was incredibly lucrative stagnation for all concerned, as long as you discount the fans. In what way has West Bromwich Albion Football Club as an entity truly benefitted from its stay in the top flight? Not even an expanded Hawthorns to show for it.

On the other hand, TheMoreYouKnow has usefully explained why Huddersfield is a club enjoying a rare adventure in the context of its last few decades of history. To compare the two would be a false equivalence.

I should clarify, I'm aware that there's no law says clubs need to squander money on mediocre footballers if they wish to stay in the top flight. Just as there's no law to force clubs to make Alan Pardew manager (whatever jingoistic London media buffoons might try and have us believe).

Example: in 2016/17, Burnley reported a wage bill of £61 million out of a turnover of £121 million. Mind, you look at the squad and marvel at how many of those uninspiring individuals must be earning £30-60k a week. Nevertheless the important point is that financial experts insist a club is on the right track if it keeps salaries under 60% of turnover.

 

[Ceremony]

I see we experienced some peak seph in this thread.

 

[Evilo]

No one brought up reffing until you started whining about it.

Thank you. But apparently, I'm thick-headed. Comical indeed. Blooper moment yet again.

 

[Evilo]

You have a funny definition of 'whining'. But eh, I'm not going to get dragged into this with you and the other one as it's always the same circular garbage.

Same circular garbage. Indeed.
You started the season whining about reffing in EVERY single game. You managed to bring up points your team was losing ude to reffing while constantly IGNORING the favourable decisions.
Everyone told you so at the time, but you don't care, you continued your little game of counting.
Then in the second part of the season, you ignored every single favourable decision once again, or denied some others (Firmino on Stones, shoulder to back is the definition of foul).

And no you have the nerves to bring up reffing as to why you're not easily 2nd in the league. And when people call you out, you say they're thick-headed or post garbage.

You're the clown of this board and you provide blooper moments half the time you post. Keep it up. But don't expect to be taken seriously.

 

[Halladay]

There was a very long good article that was written about him that I read. The premise of the it was that 5-0 at Camp Nou broke him. He has been on defensive (in matches and outside of it) ever since.

 

[hatterson]

Still not sure why Noble was so pissed off there.

 

[Gecklund]

Still not sure why Noble was so pissed off there.

I think it's just a combination of things. I only started watching after like the 70th minute but in the time I watched Pogba was playing dumb. That kick out on Carroll was moronic. The multiple hard fouls on Carroll were dumb and then I think it was just a boiling over of everything.

 

[hatterson]

I think it's just a combination of things. I only started watching after like the 70th minute but in the time I watched Pogba was playing dumb. That kick out on Carroll was moronic. The multiple hard fouls on Carroll were dumb and then I think it was just a boiling over of everything.

I mean I can understand being frustrated. Moss had managed the game really, really poorly and alternated between calling super chincy fouls and letting more physical play go.

If Noble had just got in Pogba’s face it wouldn’t have been anything, but what he did was a straight red to a normal ref. Just doesn’t seem remotely worth getting sent off for a foul that, although stupid, wasn’t that hard or really dangerous.

 

[Gecklund]

I mean I can understand being frustrated. Moss had managed the game really, really poorly and alternated between calling super chincy fouls and letting more physical play go.

If Noble had just got in Pogba’s face it wouldn’t have been anything, but what he did was a straight red to a normal ref. Just doesn’t seem remotely worth getting sent off for a foul that, although stupid, wasn’t that hard or really dangerous.

Agreed but I think that Noble was realizing this wasn't a normal ref.

Also Mou pretty much confirmed that Alexis, Lingard will be the striker pairing for the final (if Lukaku isn't ready). He said that Martial and Rashford played last game, and it was Alexis and Lingard's turn, next it will be Martial and Rashford's turn. In my mind this all but confirms it. Also De Gea being rested on the weekend and Carrick starting as captain against Brighton

 

[Savant]

@Evilo

Re: Liverpool officiating. I have four games with four specific moments where I think they got the short end of the stick, and lost points as a result.

Week 1 Watford's tying goal was offsides and/or a foul.
Against Everton, it wasn't a penalty on Lovren that allowed them to tie it.
Against WBA, Solanke's goal should not have been disallowed.
Against Tottenham, Lamela dove for the PK that allowed Kane to tie the game.

I also remember Klopp trying to sub out Coutinho for Lallana against Chelsea second before Phil fell asleep and allowed Chelsea to tie it, but apparantly there was confusion on the bench so I've let that go.

This doesn't mean conspiracy, but I don't think that Liverpool have gotten the benefit of the refs this season at all.

I can think of one game that Liverpool got helped by the refs, Mignolet should have been red carded against Stoke (I think it was Stoke). Sure there are probably more, but when I look back on a season, I try to focus on only the ones that come to my mind without thinking.

The only fact I can point to is that LFC have only been awarded one penalty at home all season. They haven't been awarded a PK since January. By comparison, Tottenham has been awarded more PKs this season at Anfield than Liverpool have. There are teams that park the bus that have gotten more PKs than Liverpool have this season. Again I'm not saying that's conspiracy but its certainly an anomaly to have that much of a penalty drought.

The teams that are going to finish in the Top 4 are the ones that should be there so these things dont matter too much in the scheme of things but those are my semi-reasonable two cents.

 

[Mr Plow]

Liverpool have gotten the short end of the officiating stick in the league this season but it's balanced out with favourable CL officiating against City, and to an extent Roma. I wouldn't trade getting through comfortably against City and Roma for a couple extra points domestically.

I also maintain that while the letter of the law dictates Firmino fouled Stones, 90% of the time in England a ref will let that go. It's close enough to a shoulder to shoulder on a 50/50 that an English ref won't give the defender any benefit unless he's got the ball completely shielded or he falls forward going to ground.

 

[Evilo]

@Evilo
I can think of one game that Liverpool got helped by the refs, Mignolet should have been red carded against Stoke (I think it was Stoke). Sure there are probably more, but when I look back on a season, I try to focus on only the ones that come to my mind without thinking.

See, that's the problem. I remember plenty of games where people here would say calls got in Liverpool's favor.

Why would penalties be even? Why? Are each team given a number of free fouls in the box? That's a reasonning I never understood.
Usually the teams that spends the most time in the box with the ball are the most likely to be given penalties. Liverpool doesn't really fit that definition contrary to City for instance. But even that depends on what teams try to do. When you're backtracing and running, there's more chance you foul a forward going on a counter than when you defend with several players in the box.

 

[Savant]

See, that's the problem. I remember plenty of games where people here would say calls got in Liverpool's favor.

Why would penalties be even? Why? Are each team given a number of free fouls in the box? That's a reasonning I never understood.
Usually the teams that spends the most time in the box with the ball are the most likely to be given penalties. Liverpool doesn't really fit that definition contrary to City for instance. But even that depends on what teams try to do. When you're backtracing and running, there's more chance you foul a forward going on a counter than when you defend with several players in the box.

No, there is no divine right for penalties, I am just using that as an example that the team doesn't get preferential treatment. I know that there have been seasons when Suarez earned Gerrard many a PK. I feel like Milner took around 10 PKs himself last season, which doesn't mean it's a conspiracy, but those stats are way down. The biggest reason in my opinion is that Liverpool has simply stopped getting Handballs in the box called in their favor. Not that I will write a research paper on this but that's the differentiation.

I've certainly emotionally yelled regarding the officials multiple times this season (many of us have), but I mentioned the only games that really still stand out to me months later.

 

[hatterson]

@Evilo

Re: Liverpool officiating. I have four games with four specific moments where I think they got the short end of the stick, and lost points as a result.

Week 1 Watford's tying goal was offsides and/or a foul.
Against Everton, it wasn't a penalty on Lovren that allowed them to tie it.
Against WBA, Solanke's goal should not have been disallowed.
Against Tottenham, Lamela dove for the PK that allowed Kane to tie the game.

Watford's goal was definitely a missed call. The other three are debatable calls. Lovren's foul is soft, but those calls are going to be made more often than not in a situation like that. Solanke's goal did touch his arm, so even though it wasn't intentional, his arm was up and a ref is going to disallow that goal 99% of the time. Against Spurs I have no idea what you're complaining about, he got booted in the back of the leg. That's a penalty every day of the week. If you're complaining about something in that game it should be that Kane wasn't blown offside.

Also in both the Everton and WBA games, Liverpool dominated but couldn't finish chances to put the game away, it's pretty weak to blame the refs for those games. Everton especially. Liverpool had something like 80% possession, took over 20 shots and only managed to get 3 of them on target.

 

[YNWA14]

Same circular garbage. Indeed.
You started the season whining about reffing in EVERY single game. You managed to bring up points your team was losing ude to reffing while constantly IGNORING the favourable decisions.

I don't ignore calls that go in Liverpool's favour, but I will argue against people claiming something that isn't true (such as Firmino fouling Stones, which he didn't).

Everyone told you so at the time, but you don't care, you continued your little game of counting.

Except from the beginning I've always said it's unfortunate but it usually evens out over a season (it hasn't this season in the league, though, unfortunately).

And no you have the nerves to bring up reffing as to why you're not easily 2nd in the league. And when people call you out, you say they're thick-headed or post garbage.

Except I didn't. I pointed out that Liverpool have been meh to end the season (in reference to draws), though they could have had an easier end to the season if the reffing had gone differently, but that's why they're in the position where they need a result on the last match-day again. Savant was the one who claimed we could easily be in 2nd. But reading and comprehension has never been your strong point.

You're the clown of this board and you provide blooper moments half the time you post. Keep it up. But don't expect to be taken seriously.

You can't even understand what you read and expect me to worry about what your view is? Keep doing your thing. You live in your own little world.

 

[Savant]

Watford's goal was definitely a missed call. The other three are debatable calls. Lovren's foul is soft, but those calls are going to be made more often than not in a situation like that. Solanke's goal did touch his arm, so even though it wasn't intentional, his arm was up and a ref is going to disallow that goal 99% of the time. Against Spurs I have no idea what you're complaining about, he got booted in the back of the leg. That's a penalty every day of the week. If you're complaining about something in that game it should be that Kane wasn't blown offside.

Also in both the Everton and WBA games, Liverpool dominated but couldn't finish chances to put the game away, it's pretty weak to blame the refs for those games. Everton especially. Liverpool had something like 80% possession, took over 20 shots and only managed to get 3 of them on target.

Kane was offsides too and that was as issue as well but what happened with Lamela is never a penalty in my book. Very soft. He wasn't booted there was a normal level of contact that takes place on a corner kick. He felt contact and he hit the deck. I'm not flipping on that one.

There are no easy games in the PL and there very small margins.

The Everton game, sure they should have done more, but my counter to that is the ref rewarded a team with no intention of playing the game. Should that be encouraged? Mind you this is an Everton team that was supposed to walk away with 7th this year on talent, that Allardyce turned into bus parkers.

WBA game wasn't great but it was a short week game they had to grind out and the ref disallowed a good goal that would have been a stoppage time winner. It hit his arm but there was nothing he could do to get it out if the way. It's a goal. Small margins.

 

[Evilo]

I don't ignore calls that go in Liverpool's favour, but I will argue against people claiming something that isn't true (such as Firmino fouling Stones, which he didn't).


Except from the beginning I've always said it's unfortunate but it usually evens out over a season (it hasn't this season in the league, though, unfortunately).


Except I didn't. I pointed out that Liverpool have been meh to end the season (in reference to draws), though they could have had an easier end to the season if the reffing had gone differently, but that's why they're in the position where they need a result on the last match-day again. Savant was the one who claimed we could easily be in 2nd. But reading and comprehension has never been your strong point.


You can't even understand what you read and expect me to worry about what your view is? Keep doing your thing. You live in your own little world.

So much fun again.
You didn't say they could end up second, but say that they're in this position because of early reffing. Hmmm. Big difference.
Yes, Firmino fouled Stones. That you refuse to admit it is telling.
And I told you a dozen times it doesn't even out. That's a myth. But it already evenned out then because you selectively ignored all the calls that went in your favor in those very games.

 

[Evilo]

The Everton game, sure they should have done more, but my counter to that is the ref rewarded a team with no intention of playing the game. Should that be encouraged? Mind you this is an Everton team that was supposed to walk away with 7th this year on talent, that Allardyce turned into bus parkers.

Since when a ref is there to "reward" or "encourage"?
Come on Savant.

 

[YNWA14]

You didn't say they could end up second, but say that they're in this position because of early reffing. Hmmm. Big difference.

I didn't say it was solely down to the reffing either. I pointed out they had some bad decisions go against them. They've had very winnable games slip through their fingers, even recently, and that's down to them and their inability to break down parked teams consistently since the beginning of the season. Obviously in a tight season the reffing didn't help. There also is a big difference between saying they could be easily in 2nd and saying they're in the position of needing a result on the last matchday to make top 4, yes.

But I don't think I've ever seen you admit you were wrong about anything so I won't hold my breath.

Yes, Firmino fouled Stones. That you refuse to admit it is telling.

He didn't, there are plenty of refs that attested to this (including the ones that officiated the game) and I provided the rules for you to read.

And I told you a dozen times it doesn't even out. That's a myth. But it already evenned out then because you selectively ignored all the calls that went in your favor in those very games.

You already told me a dozen times it doesn't even out, that's a myth, but it already evened out? How is anyone supposed to make sense of that? Also if you believe that the calls in the PL have been 'even' for Liverpool this season that's fine, I think more big decisions have gone against them but it's not the sole reason they're in the position they are.

 

[Evilo]

Ah, "bad decisions". Totally different again.
You provided nothing and was denied by several posters. As usual, you came out of it sure of your (wrong) opinion and dismssing all the posters that (rightfully) showed you the rules implied there was a foul.

I was sure you'd have trouble reading. To say it evens out is wrong. That was the first point and was proven already. Second point was that IN ANY CASE, there was nothing to even out because plenty of decisions that went Liverpool's way ALREADY in those early games that you chose to ignore.

 

[Savant]

Since when a ref is there to "reward" or "encourage"?
Come on Savant.

Hes not. You are right on there.

I'm saying that's how it felt. It wasn't a sure thing of a call. Everyone (not just here but pundits) wants to talk about how anti-football/negative tactics are bad for the game. The penalty in the Merseyside Derby just proves a team can rely on an inconsistent ref to give them points. That's the game though right?

 

[Evilo]

I totally agree with you it's heart breaking, as football fan. But that shouldn't even cross the ref's mind. If he sees a foul, he must call it.

 

[Mr Plow]

But that shouldn't even cross the ref's mind. If he sees a foul, he must call it.

Or if it's Liverpool he can just play the advantage instead of giving the pen, like Marinner did against Stoke two weeks ago.

There's obviously no conspiracy happening here but it's quite clear that Liverpool have not been afforded consistent decisions with penalties on the league this season. Ultimately it shouldn't matter because we should pick up a point against Brighton to secure top 4, and we weren't catching City regardless, but it's quite frustrating to hear fans who don't watch our league games telling us we're wrong and the refs have been fine.