Premier League 2019-20 part II

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bleedblue1223

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In defense of some clubs, it's probably a difficult decision to make. It's probably best for the league to empower the refs to just suspend play altogether and have all players leave the field until the situation is handled. Once that happens enough and the league really makes a stand, then hopefully you'd start to change some behavior, at least inside the stadium.
 
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hatterson

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In defense of some clubs, it's probably a difficult decision to make. It's probably best for the league to empower the refs to just suspend play altogether and have all players leave the field until the situation is handled. Once that happens enough and the league really makes a stand, then hopefully you'd start to change some behavior, at least inside the stadium.

That was essentially United's response along with a note how there's a lot of behind the scenes work being done to empower players to report stuff like that so the protocols can be follow properly. That was seen with the incident with City earlier this year.
 
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Havre

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Now it is established that I am racist on this board, but I don't see how walking off would be the best solution in all cases. Should Rudiger have walked off when the police found nothing investigating the case? What if a player misunderstands something? All the Poolfans on here will remember Suarez and his "misunderstanding" (I don't believe Suarez for a second, but I can't categorically say he is also a liar).

I don't know what the right action is in every circumstance, but I don't think walking off would be the best way to handle the issue by default. Innocent until proven guilty is sometimes hard to accept, but I firmly believe in that principle. And I don't accept that the "victim" is always right. Same issue when it comes to sexual harassment etc. There is little that makes me as angry as those kind of cases, but unfortunately the victim isn't always right there either. Not sure if we will ever solve that dilemma- wanting to believe the victim while at the same time upholding that people are innocent until prove guilty.
 

JeffreyLFC

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Sep 29, 2017
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Now it is established that I am racist on this board, but I don't see how walking off would be the best solution in all cases. Should Rudiger have walked off when the police found nothing investigating the case? What if a player misunderstands something? All the Poolfans on here will remember Suarez and his "misunderstanding" (I don't believe Suarez for a second, but I can't categorically say he is also a liar).

I don't know what the right action is in every circumstance, but I don't think walking off would be the best way to handle the issue by default. Innocent until proven guilty is sometimes hard to accept, but I firmly believe in that principle. And I don't accept that the "victim" is always right. Same issue when it comes to sexual harassment etc. There is little that makes me as angry as those kind of cases, but unfortunately the victim isn't always right there either. Not sure if we will ever solve that dilemma- wanting to believe the victim while at the same time upholding that people are innocent until prove guilty.
LFC current CEO and Manager are VERY different than the previous one. They issued an apology to Evra (better late than never but naysayer say it is just for the looks) I truly believe that they would back any player that is racially abused. They have changed a lot although that stigma around Suarez even with all the apologies and mea culpa is still present.
 

Havre

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LFC current CEO and Manager are VERY different than the previous one. They issued an apology to Evra (better late than never but naysayer say it is just for the looks) I truly believe that they would back any player that is racially abused. They have changed a lot although that stigma around Suarez even with all the apologies and mea culpa is still present.

My point wasn't to criticize Liverpool, even if I thought they handled that situation poorly, my point is did Suarez say something racist? I personally believe so, but how can I know? How can anyone know?

So even if it is easy to say that one should never accept racism etc (which I, even as a racist, wholeheartedly agree with) it isn't always that easy to determine in reality. The same way VAR in theory is just supposed to fix errors it doesn't really work that way in reality.

Obviously not the end of the world if Evra walks off and a game is stopped after such an incident, but it would be rather sad if you start to stop games due to misunderstandings etc. I fear that could lead to more and not less racism.
 

Burner Account

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I feel like players should be allowed to walk.

Those who want to walk off are talking about racism. Those who don’t want to let players to walk are talking about a game. Two different things.
 
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Stray Wasp

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I mean, the only correct answer is how you actually act when it happens. There are plenty of people and organizations that say the right things and then do the exact opposite.

Indeed. The other point about this article is that, unless my reading comprehension is even lower than it was last week (which is plausible), the reader doesn't get to see the precise question the clubs were asked.

To me that's important because I'd like to know whether the question was couched more in terms of general principles - along the lines of "would you support a player on either side leaving the pitch if they suffered racist abuse during the game?" or was it more "would you support one of your players etc." (my italics).

Self-interest makes one of the above questions simpler to answer with piety than the other.

Hopefully I can point out that Arsenal's answer as quoted refers specifically to their players without people taking this as proof that I am Grand Dragon of the Temple of Arsenalophobia (South East London Division). I stress, it may simply be their response to the question in line with the way it was framed.

The real surprise would be if anyone came out and said,

"Oh, yeah, well, we really don't give a toss if some social inadequate is comparing the phenomenal athletes we employ to animals, or suggesting their skin colour and/or ethnicity renders them automatically inferior to some pasty-faced character safely ensconced in a large crowd predominantly comprised of other pasty-faced characters. All we care about is money and power. Are you going to give us more money? Are you going to give us more power? You're not? Well, f*** off then. We're the Premier League, and we'd do business with Chairman Mao in the morning, Reinhard Heydrich after lunch and slide in a deal with Idi Amin before closing time if there was enough cash in it. The question isn't 'are you racist', it's 'does your racism interfere with our expanding our wealth and clout'?"

Mind you, an amusing thing in the article is how many clubs were so cautious about saying the wrong thing they didn't even roll out the "racism is a bad thing" platitude the author themselves refers to.
 

hatterson

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Apr 12, 2010
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Now it is established that I am racist on this board, but I don't see how walking off would be the best solution in all cases. Should Rudiger have walked off when the police found nothing investigating the case? What if a player misunderstands something? All the Poolfans on here will remember Suarez and his "misunderstanding" (I don't believe Suarez for a second, but I can't categorically say he is also a liar).

I don't know what the right action is in every circumstance, but I don't think walking off would be the best way to handle the issue by default. Innocent until proven guilty is sometimes hard to accept, but I firmly believe in that principle. And I don't accept that the "victim" is always right. Same issue when it comes to sexual harassment etc. There is little that makes me as angry as those kind of cases, but unfortunately the victim isn't always right there either. Not sure if we will ever solve that dilemma- wanting to believe the victim while at the same time upholding that people are innocent until prove guilty.

Liverpool’s response wasn’t that the team would walk off if there’s a racist incident, it’s that if one of their players felt they needed to walk off due to abuse, the entire team would walk off with them.

The response of United was that it would never get to that point because the protocols would be followed and players are trained and empowered to follow them.

Liverpool’s response is team unity, United’s is empowering the players though the systems in place and making sure those are followed.

Neither is wrong, they’re just different approaches.

In regards to guilty vs. innocent, that doesn’t really matter in a situation like happened in Porto. Regardless of whether a player did or didn’t receive racial abuse (there’s boatloads of evidence he did), he felt he needed to walk off the pitch and the response of his teammates was to care far more about the game itself than about the mental health of their teammate. It’s a pathetic showing to have multiple players (especially white players) attempting to physically prevent a guy from walking off the pitch because the fans are abusing him in a racial manner.
 
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Havre

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Liverpool’s response wasn’t that the team would walk off if there’s a racist incident, it’s that if one of their players felt they needed to walk off due to abuse, the entire team would walk off with them.

The response of United was that it would never get to that point because the protocols would be followed and players are trained and empowered to follow them.

Liverpool’s response is team unity, United’s is empowering the players though the systems in place and making sure those are followed.

Neither is wrong, they’re just different approaches.

In regards to guilty vs. innocent, that doesn’t really matter in a situation like happened in Porto. Regardless of whether a player did or didn’t receive racial abuse (there’s boatloads of evidence he did), he felt he needed to walk off the pitch and the response of his teammates was to care far more about the game itself than about the mental health of their teammate. It’s a pathetic showing to have multiple players (especially white players) attempting to physically prevent a guy from walking off the pitch because the fans are abusing him in a racial manner.

Not sure if you are addressing any of the real problems here. As a general principle "feeling the need to walk off" isn´t enough for me.

If the players are white or not is completely irrelevant for me. Are you implying because they are white they cannot relate to the situation a player that is not white is experiencing?
 

maclean

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Jan 4, 2014
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In my ideal world the only good response to that is I'd hope our fans kick the crap out of the piece of **** before we even have to make an issue out of it. But there's less than a handful of clubs in the world where that would happen

*edit - jesus are the swearing filters off for some reason? is this an 18+ site now? i mean, i'm an adult, i can handle it, but what's going on?
 

Stray Wasp

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If the players are white or not is completely irrelevant for me. Are you implying because they are white they cannot relate to the situation a player that is not white is experiencing?

Hatterson can answer for himself on this.

For my part, I'd observe that history surely tells us human beings can often respond to the sight of other groups being victimised with a wish that it wasn't happening rather than a deed of solidarity.

As for the general notion of football and empathy, well, for every heartwarming gesture we've seen enough examples of misogyny, homophobia, feckless parenting, greed, entitlement, immaturity, selfishness, violent posturing and espousal of insensitive political positions from players and/or coaches who used to be players to at least sow the seeds of doubt that they are the most thoughtful group in society.
 

Havre

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Jul 24, 2011
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If Rudiger had decided to walk off, I would want every single Chelsea player walking off alongside him, and I'd be furious with anyone who didn't.

Obviously I will be judged as a Spursfan here, but there being no evidence anything happened is irrelevant?

This is just way too simplistic way of looking at things.

If this becomes the expected course of action I can almost but guarantee that teams will exploit this. Walk off in a losing position for then to say "we thought we heard something sorry we were wrong". The racists would love that to happen. Where do you then take it from there?
 

gary69

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Sep 22, 2004
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Yeah, walking offs would be abused by some clubs' spectator groups. Can the games last for 6 hours with numerous walk offs? Or if the games are abandoned, how many replays a team can be play during for example CL group stages?
 
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Cassano

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Aug 31, 2013
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Yeah, walking offs would be abused by some clubs' spectator groups. Can the games last for 6 hours with numerous walk offs? Or if the games are abandoned, how many replays a team can be play during for example CL group stages?
Plus you know crazy ultras of certain teams will use this as a tactic if they know teams will be walking off the pitch.
 

Havre

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Jul 24, 2011
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Plus you know crazy ultras of certain teams will use this as a tactic if they know teams will be walking off the pitch.

That would be the pinnacle of world football - ultras singing racist songs to get games stopped.

What a sad world we live in.
 

hatterson

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Apr 12, 2010
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If the players are white or not is completely irrelevant for me. Are you implying because they are white they cannot relate to the situation a player that is not white is experiencing?

I'm not saying they can't relate or empathize, I'm saying it's a bad look when a visible minority player is being abused as a result of the color of their skin and a bunch of white guys are telling him not to be so upset.
 
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Havre

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Jul 24, 2011
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I would agree there is a balance, but I have no idea how to get it right. Again similar to sexual harassment. Obviously not good if it is impossible for anyone to come forward, but one should in my opinion be extremely conservative and careful in doing so. Being wrongfully accused could also lead to some serious consequences.

I remember Ibrahimovic being asked once about the racial abuse he was getting. His answer was something along the lines of "it says more about them than me". Honestly the only way I can see it ever completely stop is if it doesn't bite or work any longer. Easier said than done of course, but there are no easy solutions here.
 
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