Premier League 2016-2017 - part 2

[East Coast Bias]

Nearly all of the top clubs in European football are having a down year

Except Monaco I guess

yeah I agree. The only league that I've watched this year that seems better is Ligue 1.

I think the EPL is better this year, but not where it once was.

The Bundesliga was down for me this year.

 

[hatterson]

I think that's being overly optimistic. The flaws of these clubs will only be magnified in Europe. Liverpool will probably leak goals. Chelsea and Tottenham will need to add quality depth to truly compete in Europe, and Tottenham will need to prove themselves. United and Mourinho are complete question marks.

Liverpool I could see playing tight games and just not being able to score enough to go through. United similar.

I don't think United, even with a couple additions over the summer, is really close to the elite teams in Europe, but the way Mourinho manages, seeing them blown out would be surprising at least in terms of final score line. IIRC they've only lost one game by more than a goal this year. Granted I think they'd get fairly well dominated in terms of possession and chances, but be able to keep from being scoreline embarrassed.

Chelsea is an interesting team as I've said before. Could go either way this summer depending on additions and subtractions.

Spurs need to prove they can win when it matters before I bother putting much into the quality of their side.

City is City. They're deeply flawed, but if everything goes right for them they have the raw talent to go head to head with most teams.

TL;DR is that if 5 English teams make it, I could all 5 bombing out before the knockout phase, but at the same time a team like Chelsea, City, United or Liverpool getting a decent draw and making it to the quarters or something wouldn't shock me.

 

[bleedblue1223]

TL;DR is that if 5 English teams make it, I could all 5 bombing out before the knockout phase, but at the same time a team like Chelsea, City, United or Liverpool getting a decent draw and making it to the quarters or something wouldn't shock me.

Right, that's my view as well. Chelsea has the best chance IMO to make it deep, but they need a better backup striker, improved depth at wingback, and probably another complete midfielder that can threaten to score. Without that, they will either sacrifice results domestically or in Europe.

The talent is there for these clubs to make a run, but it's not what it used to be where it was expected that they make a run and contend. I'm just saying that while England is now more competitive, it is also worse off for Europe IMO. Lets see if Chelsea can build and Tottenham keep it together.

 

[Deficient Mode]

yeah I agree. The only league that I've watched this year that seems better is Ligue 1.

I think the EPL is better this year, but not where it once was.

The Bundesliga was down for me this year.

Bundesliga entertainment level was down, and all the teams that finished in the top 4 last year had worse years. I still think the addition of Leipzig made the league stronger as a whole, but not nearly as much as it would have if those other teams were also having good years.

 

[Evilo]

Didn't Chelsea invest a lot in a backup striker?

 

[Blender]

Didn't Chelsea invest a lot in a backup striker?

Yea they bought Batshuayi for about £33 million. Guy hasn't started many games and has mostly came off the bench late though.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Didn't Chelsea invest a lot in a backup striker?

Yeah, I like Bats, but he's just not a Conte player. With Costa's status seemingly always up in the air, I see them going strong for Lukaku or Morata and depending on Costa, possibly finding a backup striker that fits the system better.

 

[Live in the Now]

Didn't Chelsea invest a lot in a backup striker?

Well, it's just like you said, Bats is a stupid player. I think a team could have success with him, but it seems like Conte won't tolerate him.

 

[YNWA14]

I think people are confusing quality with dominance.

Like has been said the players overall are better, the coaching is better but the problem is that, like in a lot of sports, as the emphasis on winning becomes more and more important the play becomes less and less entertaining and more structured. That's why you see a lot of say less entertaining play as the average level of play increases. It's harder and harder for teams to just go out and dominate others especially if those teams are sitting back defensively which means that even the much more talented teams have an onus to play more risk averse.

Just like the criticism to PSG and saying that Leipzig made the league stronger but the league would have been better if the other teams had good years too. But there are plenty of factors involved that bring down the play of some teams while others excel and that doesn't mean that the quality has gone down.

Nostalgia twists things quite a bit.

Anyway I actually expect pretty big things from the PL in the CL next season. Obviously if the English clubs meet with teams like Barca, Bayern, Juventus, etc. early it could mean an early exit but otherwise I think they should put in a pretty good showing. They have a ton of money to bolster CL caliber squads and they have strong coaching at the top. Between the potentially 5 teams that are there I think one should make the semis.

 

[Live in the Now]

There's definitely no nostalgia in pointing out the Premier League was better than it is now. The amount of world class players then compared to now is mindblowing. Sometimes I wonder if you watched football 10 years ago or are just judging by paper.

The English teams had no problem getting rid of the Inter's and RM's of the world. Teams could win at Camp Nou. That's just the fact of it. This would never happen now. Those teams would absolutely have competed with the current Bayern, Barca, and Juventus and not been an early elimination.

The academies of these teams have not done as good a job developing players and bringing them through to the first team.

 

[hatterson]

Yea, how many players on Chelsea, Liverpool, City, or Spurs would be upgrades to the United, Arsenal or Chelsea teams from 10-15 years ago?

 

[Live in the Now]

I'd take Mane or Coutinho over Benayoun. For United I'd take de Gea over van der Sar and Zlatan over Rooney. I think Chelsea's the only one with a few players that could crack their first team ten years ago. Would rather have Hazard, Kante, and Courtois over some of the players they fielded back then.

This all being said, I do think it's better for the sport for things to be the way it is now with the talent far more spread out, and I do think there are more good players now than in that era.

 

[hatterson]

Yea, the point wasn't that there's none. But by and large those teams had more talent 10-15 years ago. There's a lot more from those old teams that would be on the starting XI today than vice-versa. Not just United now vs. United then, but top 3 then vs. top 3 now.

 

[Epictetus]

That Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano midfield...

 

[bleedblue1223]

Just imagine a midfield including the equivalents of Lampard, Essien, Ballack, and Makalele. Hazard is probably our only current player that without a doubt starts on some of those teams. There is plenty of competition for even Kante there, but no doubt he'd have plenty of time on the pitch. Courtois and Cech would be a tossup.

Increased domestic competition just means that those clubs will have less talent to have. If you take the talent in the top 7, and shift it to 3 or 4 clubs, and make clubs like City and Tottenham what they used to be, then the top 4 would be stacked again, and they would consistently go deep in Europe.

England will be able to compete in Europe like they used to, once the same effect happens in the other top countries.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

I'd take Mane or Coutinho over Benayoun. For United I'd take de Gea over van der Sar and Zlatan over Rooney. I think Chelsea's the only one with a few players that could crack their first team ten years ago. Would rather have Hazard, Kante, and Courtois over some of the players they fielded back then.

This all being said, I do think it's better for the sport for things to be the way it is now with the talent far more spread out, and I do think there are more good players now than in that era.

Difficult to compare present Chelsea to ten years ago simply because of formation difference, but looking at the Chelsea side that won the title in 2005-06, Hazard for sure makes it in over one of Joe Cole and Robben, Costa makes it in over Drogba (that was before Drogba really broke out), Gallas and del Horno don't crack the present Chelsea backline, and I MIGHT (I'm very torn on this) put David Luiz in over Ricardo Carvalho. Courtois and Cech is a wash, leaning Cech. Kante is tricky, because that midfield was awesome (Essien, Makelele, and Lampard).

 

[YNWA14]

Having a better top 3 doesn't mean the PL was better then it just means the talent was more concentrated and the league as a whole was less competitive. You don't have the same stacked teams at the top anymore, though they're not far off, but the overall quality of the PL is better which makes it harder in general for the PL teams to be competitive in Europe IMO, especially when you consider their schedules and lack of a winter break.

Also City went to the semis last year. City also only lost on away goals to a team in the Semis this year (and likely would have beaten Dortmund to get there as well). The only team in the top 6 in England that would get blown out by Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus, Bayern etc. is Arsenal and they always seem to have issues with top teams, especially offensive ones, over the last few years. But I mean we'll see next year either way I think that the PL will have a pretty good showing and are trending in the right direction to be more competitive in Europe again.

 

[hatterson]

The only team in the top 6 in England that would get blown out by Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus, Bayern etc. is Arsenal and they always seem to have issues with top teams, especially offensive ones, over the last few years. But I mean we'll see next year either way I think that the PL will have a pretty good showing and are trending in the right direction to be more competitive in Europe again.

As I said, it depends on what you mean by blown out. United wouldn't get curb stomped 10-2 on aggregate, but if they played one of those teams the final is likely something like 3-1 with the other team having 2/3 of the possession and quality chances.

United didn't get dominated against City last week in terms of score, but in terms of carrying the play it wasn't even close. I'd expect that to be magnified against the elite of Europe.

 

[YNWA14]

As I said, it depends on what you mean by blown out. United wouldn't get curb stomped 10-2 on aggregate, but if they played one of those teams the final is likely something like 3-1 with the other team having 2/3 of the possession and quality chances.

United didn't get dominated against City last week in terms of score, but in terms of carrying the play it wasn't even close. I'd expect that to be magnified against the elite of Europe.

Well to be fair United are injury ravaged, and both United and City will be better and more accustomed to their coaches next season. Not to mention City is right up there probably in the 2nd tier in terms of offensive ability in Europe anyway (behind only probably Barca, Real and Bayern), and Mourinho typically allows strong opposition to carry the play. City beat Barca 3-1 at home earlier this season and they are nowhere near where they could be.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Having a better top 3 doesn't mean the PL was better then it just means the talent was more concentrated and the league as a whole was less competitive. You don't have the same stacked teams at the top anymore, though they're not far off, but the overall quality of the PL is better which makes it harder in general for the PL teams to be competitive in Europe IMO, especially when you consider their schedules and lack of a winter break.

Also City went to the semis last year. City also only lost on away goals to a team in the Semis this year (and likely would have beaten Dortmund to get there as well). The only team in the top 6 in England that would get blown out by Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus, Bayern etc. is Arsenal and they always seem to have issues with top teams, especially offensive ones, over the last few years. But I mean we'll see next year either way I think that the PL will have a pretty good showing and are trending in the right direction to be more competitive in Europe again.

We aren't saying the PL was better, we are saying a more top heavy league will allow those teams to be better in Europe. I prefer the way the PL is now, it makes it more exciting, but we shouldn't deny that competing in Europe will become very difficult. All of the teams will have series question marks in Champions League next season IMO.

I guess it depends on your definition of blown out. The other big clubs of Europe would certainly dominate the play more often then not against most of the English clubs. I think only Tottenham and Chelsea on their good days could compete with the other top clubs at the moment. English clubs still have the talent for deep runs, but I don't think they can do it year after year like in the past.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I'd take Mane or Coutinho over Benayoun. For United I'd take de Gea over van der Sar and Zlatan over Rooney. I think Chelsea's the only one with a few players that could crack their first team ten years ago. Would rather have Hazard, Kante, and Courtois over some of the players they fielded back then.

This all being said, I do think it's better for the sport for things to be the way it is now with the talent far more spread out, and I do think there are more good players now than in that era.

De Gea over Van der Sar? Really? Interesting.

 

[Evilo]

Well, it's just like you said, Bats is a stupid player. I think a team could have success with him, but it seems like Conte won't tolerate him.

Yeah he's dumb as a rock. Quite a lot of strengths however. Fast, strong, good powerful shot.
But IQ isn't there.

 

[YNWA14]

I guess that's where we have different views. Like I think obviously the strength of schedule, the lack of a winter break and the competition for elite talent is definitely a drawback. That said the PL has the most money of any league by a wide margin, the teams at the top have brought in (mostly) top managers and will be able to bolster their squads this summer to build on the work they've begun. I think that the PL had to go through a transitional period with the influx of money and competition while a bunch of their elite players aged without adequate replacements and were lured to other countries to play on superteams. I also think that there was an inherent issue in the PL where they thought they could throw money at problems for a while rather than get better and more pragmatic coaching (which seems to be an issue that is being addressed currently).

I think they're on the way up in Europe but next year will be the real test IMO to see if they've learned from a lot of the mistakes and changes in the footballing landscape.

 

[Live in the Now]

De Gea over Van der Sar? Really? Interesting.

Yes and without a second thought. de Gea is the better athlete, can catch just about everything, bigger hands, reflexes, all that stuff. Makes a lot of saves that no keeper should be able to make.

 

[Evilo]

5-10 years ago, french players only dreamt of joining the EPL. Right now? EPL, Germany, Italy have comparable appeal to them. Spain being above the others. Or some players would rather stay home if they don't go to a top team abroad.