Post-Game Talk: Pre-Season #5: Mon, Sept. 23 2019, FLYERS at Bruins, 7:00 pm ET

[prototypical4thliner]

Come on Hatch...you said Ghost would be traded.

You have been plenty wrong.

We have to wait until ghost retires for you to play that card.

 

[Tripod]

Team Agendas !!!

Benny - Jake
Ghost Beers - Ghost, Stewart
Hatcher - All skill players and any player under 240lbs
J Town - JVR
Captain - Hayes, Braun, Niskanen, Bunny
Striker - Braun, Niskanen

These are some examples of posts that are probably best ignored,

 

[hatcher]

Come on Hatch...you said Ghost would be traded.

You have been plenty wrong.

I did and it's not happening righ now because no one stepped up like I thought they would. Of course I have been wrong on certain stuff but I still think this isn't a cup team ever. It's got nothing like 2010,11,or even 12 teams but that my opinion.

 

[Striiker]

Team Agendas !!!

Benny - Jake
Ghost Beers - Ghost, Stewart
Hatcher - All skill players and any player under 240lbs
J Town - JVR
Captain - Hayes, Braun, Niskanen, Bunny
Striker - Braun, Niskanen

These are some examples of posts that are probably best ignored,

Not sure what posts you've been reading, but that's a funny way to spell "Hagg".

Also...

No issue with Niskanen but I liked Gudas too and I didn't want him to be traded.

Personally, I'd have been much happier with trading a 2nd and 3rd for Niskanen, keeping Gudas, and not adding Braun.

I don't like the contract and I'm not sure what version of him we're going to see, but Hayes will help in some capacity, and I think Niskanen has the potential to be pretty helpful too (my only concern being how much he will be used and relied on). On top of that, AV should at the very least be an upgrade on Hak/Gordon, we'll see to what degree. Our forward core looks really strong (especially if they're smart enough to keep Frost/Farabee in the NHL), our defense has a ton of potential and could be good if used properly, and I have faith in Hart. The only thing I could see really derailing us is if we run into injury problems.

-My feelings on Hayes contract and Hayes on ice ability are separate. I've been vocal and negative about the former (especially where it pertains to Fletchers negotiation abilities and the effect it has on the team in the future), but not negative about the latter
-The Braun trade itself was bad, even if he plays decently, because of the price, how unnecessary it was, and the effect it has on superior defensmens icetime
-I mistrust all coaches, including the ones we hired, because 99% do idiotic ****. But as I said, I'm willing to give them a chance here.
-I don't care too much about the Niskanen trade either way. There's possible upside to it.

-Hayes contract sucks, but he’ll be a positive on ice addition.
-I’m fine with the Niskanen trade.
-The Braun trade was trash but it shouldn’t be enough to sink us
-I see cause for concern with the new coaching additions but I’m waiting to see how they do here before judging.

And no "agenda" against Braun either, although I don't like the trade. But just like Hayes, the trade/contracts are separate from the players. I can dislike what a player costs without it effecting my opinion of them.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Indeed, but does not need to be on the right to excel.

I don't think anyone suggested he needed to be on the right to excel. Just about every defenseman in hockey prefers, and is better on their strong side. It's just been argued that when you play everyone on this team on their strong side, that results in a Ghost or Sanheim playing on the 3rd pair, a position that both are overqualified for, while likely worse players such as Braun and Niskanen play in the top 4 and with your best forwards and in the most crucial points in the game.

Ghost is a unique player in that he sees little to no dropoff in his game from LD to RD and provides a team flexibility. But it likely doesn't matter as Ghost hasn't played the right side since Fletcher has been in town and they view Sanheim as the swing guy.

 

[Stizzle]

Vorobyev having a mediocre camp is really getting to you, huh.

He's played very well, actually.

A certain Laughton fan here, who claims not to see mainstream coverage, says no pro-Laughton bias exists. Just pointing out the obvious.

 

[Foggy14]

2) Friedman wasn’t far off.... Friedman was really strong defensively and, better yet, continued his trend of showing a ton of poise on breakouts. Another NHL player.

Yeah, a couple of times last night he reminded me of Dennis Seidenberg.

Could Friedman bloom here, or does he have to get traded first?

Seidenberg for Nedved ---- arggggggggh!

Flyers now paying for Seidenberg's success

 

[Striiker]

He's played very well, actually.

A certain Laughton fan here, who claims not to see mainstream coverage, says no pro-Laughton bias exists. Just pointing out the obvious.

Woahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wait a second, if you mean me then I didn't say "no pro-Laughton bias exists". I just said that I haven't seen it since I ignore the broadcasters and I don't watch pre-game, between period, or post-game shows.

 

[Here4ThaLids]

Need to keep Sandy's stats down for the next contract.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

I don't think anyone suggested he needed to be on the right to excel. Just about every defenseman in hockey prefers, and is better on their strong side. It's just been argued that when you play everyone on this team on their strong side, that results in a Ghost or Sanheim playing on the 3rd pair, a position that both are overqualified for, while likely worse players such as Braun and Niskanen play in the top 4 and with your best forwards and in the most crucial points in the game.

Ghost is a unique player in that he sees little to no dropoff in his game from LD to RD and provides a team flexibility. But it likely doesn't matter as Ghost hasn't played the right side since Fletcher has been in town and they view Sanheim as the swing guy.

It all depends on how these guys are used in critical situations, I guess, but I don't think you need to regularly stack the top 4 to be efficient with this group.

If Sanheim or Ghost is on the '3rd' pair, but the minutes are roughly evenly distributed at even strength, then what's the issue? This is the best group of 6 defensemen the Flyers have had in a long time (since 2004, probably).

I have seen arguments that Ghost is better on the right, not necessarily that his being on the right is a better deployment of the talent, though. I like Sanheim, Ghost and Provy all on the left, which means someone has to be on the '3rd' pair. As long as their partners aren't anchors (or, arguably if Provy isn't an anchor ), the Flyers should be in great shape.

It's all about usage and I am cautiously optimistic about how AV will use them, even strength or through special teams.

 

[Striiker]

-Ghost can play both sides
-he had his best year on the right, so we know it doesn't hurt him
-he should be on the right so we can have that great Provorov-Ghost pair again
-the fact that we don't even have this as an option anymore is part of why wasting trading for Braun was a mistake
-It also makes sure Sanheim is in the top 4 where he belongs

And until we see that all 3 pairs are getting even time, we shouldn't assume that it'll happen.

 

[baudib1]

Someone did a study at The Athletic last year that showed, at least for offensive stats, defensemen being on their off-side made little to no difference. If anything,they performed better on their off side.

There are probably all kinds of problems with drawing broad conclusions from this. For example, the evidence is probably skewed because guys who are awful on the other side probably don't play there much. But as far as someone like Ghost, it probably doesn't really matter.

 

[dragonoffrost]

Yeah, a couple of times last night he reminded me of Dennis Seidenberg.

Could Friedman bloom here, or does he have to get traded first?

Seidenberg for Nedved ---- arggggggggh!

Flyers now paying for Seidenberg's success

The curse of 93...

Nedved/Zherdev....

 

[baudib1]

- Ghost can play either side,makes him very valuable because he can essentially be paired with anyone.
- Sanheim can play either side, but definitely looks better on the left.
- Hagg sucks on either side.

 

[TheKingPin]

Wednesday is the expected update.

Thanks!

 

[JojoTheWhale]

It all depends on how these guys are used in critical situations, I guess, but I don't think you need to regularly stack the top 4 to be efficient with this group.

If Sanheim or Ghost is on the '3rd' pair, but the minutes are roughly evenly distributed at even strength, then what's the issue? This is the best group of 6 defensemen the Flyers have had in a long time (since 2004, probably).

I have seen arguments that Ghost is better on the right, not necessarily that his being on the right is a better deployment of the talent, though. I like Sanheim, Ghost and Provy all on the left, which means someone has to be on the '3rd' pair. As long as their partners aren't anchors (or, arguably if Provy isn't an anchor ), the Flyers should be in great shape.

It's all about usage and I am cautiously optimistic about how AV will use them, even strength or through special teams.

I'm also hopeful we'll get a fairly even ES TOI spread amongst the pairings, as Vigneault does have some history of doing exactly that.

My concern with the pair hierarchy is mostly rooted in how that dictates they're deployed in relation to the Forwards. The more matchup based this is, the less flexibility there will be in who takes shifts with the Couturier line.

I'm a firm believer in the benefits of tactical decisions like throwing out entire 5-man units in high leverage situations. Of course this is hopefully less of a problem this year with Hayes and the theoretical lack of vet chaff in the Bottom 9, but it's been such a key for this team and handled so poorly for multiple years that I want to see it managed well before I write it off. Just as there's some positive history with Vigneault and TOI splits, he has some negative history there. I'm still withholding judgment until I see how he handles it, but you know what they say about those that ignore history.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

-Ghost can play both sides
-he had his best year on the right, so we know it doesn't hurt him
-he should be on the right so we can have that great Provorov-Ghost pair again
-the fact that we don't even have this as an option anymore is part of why wasting trading for Braun was a mistake
-It also makes sure Sanheim is in the top 4 where he belongs

And until we see that all 3 pairs are getting even time, we shouldn't assume that it'll happen.

The only thing wrong with acquiring Braun was the price paid for him.

I couldn't disagree more that Ghost should be on the right to facilitate a Provy-Ghost pair. They have had great moments together, but I don't necessarily like them as a full time unit. I have similar reservations with Sanheim-Myers, but I have seen enough of these two together to commit on that one.

We can only wait and see how the minutes are dispersed. I am not going to worry about it until there's a reason to.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Guys, remember, this is just preseason though.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

I'm also hopeful we'll get a fairly even ES TOI spread amongst the pairings, as Vigneault does have some history of doing exactly that.

My concern with the pair hierarchy is mostly rooted in how that dictates they're deployed in relation to the Forwards. The more matchup based this is, the less flexibility there will be in who takes shifts with the Couturier line.

I'm a firm believer in the benefits of tactical decisions like throwing out entire 5-man units in high leverage situations. Of course this is hopefully less of a problem this year with Hayes and the theoretical lack of vet chaff in the Bottom 9, but it's been such a key for this team and handled so poorly for multiple years that I want to see it managed well before I write it off. Just as there's some positive history with Vigneault and TOI splits, he has some negative history there. I'm still withholding judgment until I see how he handles it, but you know what they say about those that ignore history.

Considering what we are up against in our own division, this logic is pretty sound. The penguins may be trending down but using them as the classical example. Every time Crosby is on the ice, we can run couturiers line with provorov and niskanen. Every time malkin is on the ice, we can run hayes line with ghost and Braun.

Quality defenders both at forward and at d, but with enough offensive acumen to quickly transition the other way.

 

[Starat327]

Guys, remember, this is just preseason though.

Can you beat up Stewart?

 

[Magua]

We should probably be careful about projecting the preseason style of play to regular season style of play. Hakstol teams were fun in the preseason. Regular season comes and the overcoaching becomes more prevalent.

Preseason is a golden time where Hagg becomes an analytics darling and Twarynski morphs into Kucherov and every top Flyers prospect is a bust......

Glass half full is that AV got pissy about how poorly they were grasping his systems -- including getting systematically outclassed by a worse Bruins roster -- and these are the games that followed, with more regulars. Quick transition offense and aggression was also a big component of his (successful) Rangers teams. You're right, but there's enough here for a fool's hope, I guess.

It may not even be system style that changes, so much as suboptimal usage in the guise of "reliability." Which changes the style and effectiveness. That I do expect.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Can you beat up Stewart?

If I can catch him.



So, yeah

 

[Beef Invictus]

We should probably be careful about projecting the preseason style of play to regular season style of play. Hakstol teams were fun in the preseason. Regular season comes and the overcoaching becomes more prevalent.

Last year Haktol had them playing like Trotz's Caps with emphasis on outnumbering and isolating single defenders and moving the puck around them to create chances.

Then the regular season began and it was straight back to the perimeter and blue line.

 

[Curufinwe]

He's played very well, actually.

He played two games. The first two games.

 

[Stizzle]

He played two games. The first two games.

Uhhh, yes, and did well.