GDT: Pre-8: FLYERS 4 at Bruins 1, Saturday, Sept. 29, 2018, 5:00 p.m. ET

GapToothedWonder

Registered User
Dec 20, 2013
5,196
8,842
Paris of the Praries
GDTs are always less rational and more stream-of-consciousness. They're more negative (and positive too if it's earned) than other threads. They're the id to this forum.

Again, what do you want people to discuss? We have plenty of posts about how awesome XYZ player is -- hyping up our young players or our stars. Saying it's all doom and gloom is not true. But in every discussion about every topic in human history, it's short and easy to talk about the positive. More words are always spent on complaining or trying to fix the negative. I don't know why that's earth shattering stuff. People don't go to therapy to discuss the positive; they need an outlet for the negative. Oftentimes, that's what the point of this forum is: fan commiseration. Far from crying and wailing, we often channel our gripes through humor.

People act like the HiveMind is always negative. But go look at the TK, Ghost, G, Coots (Especially a few years ago), Scoracek, etc forms. Look at who is excited and positive and who is crapping on our stars and young studs. The non HiveMind crowd loves to talk about the core in a negative way. The HiveMind sees how great some of these guys are and realizes it's the type of core that with the right support can win championships.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
The Hive has favorites, and tends to skew its perceptions, exaggerating the quality of its favorites, and overly denigrating its scapegoats.

Couts was controversial 3 years ago, some in and out of the hive said he was underrated, others said he was just a 3C.

TK and Ghost were overrated by the Hive at first, confusing potential with production, Ghost finally reached his potential last year, TK the second half of last year (though I don't think his 18% shooting percentage in the 2nd half is sustainable, so 30 goals is more reasonable playing a full season on the 1st line). Ghost wasn't very good in 2016-17, and TK struggled the first half of last season (far beyond what could be explained by his linemates, he just couldn't score to save his life).

Giroux had a three year stretch when he wasn't a first line center, then he move to LW with Couts - and this decline occurred before he was injured, but most of the Hive pretends it never happened. He's healthy again, but he also was put in a position that optimizes his production.

The Hive mind overrates Voracek. Voracek is a good player, but already past his prime, JVR was a better player the last three seasons. And no one considers JVR a top player. Both players are good scorers, top PP scorers but somewhat indifferent when it comes to defense.

Provorov might be the most overrated Flyer, simply because people are projecting what he can become to what he already is, he's not a top 20 defenseman yet, but he's only 21 and most top defensemen are 25-32 or so. Given his work ethic, I think he has a shot at becoming an elite (top 5 or so) defenseman in a few years.

I see a lot of wishful thinking in evaluations, mostly about how fast players develop, people want prospects to instantly emerge, and the reality is it takes time, some faster than others, but none as fast as we wish.
 

Adtar02

@NateThompson44 is a bum
Apr 8, 2012
4,878
5,748
2nd star 2 the right
The Hive has favorites, and tends to skew its perceptions, exaggerating the quality of its favorites, and overly denigrating its scapegoats.

Couts was controversial 3 years ago, some in and out of the hive said he was underrated, others said he was just a 3C.

TK and Ghost were overrated by the Hive at first, confusing potential with production, Ghost finally reached his potential last year, TK the second half of last year (though I don't think his 18% shooting percentage in the 2nd half is sustainable, so 30 goals is more reasonable playing a full season on the 1st line). Ghost wasn't very good in 2016-17, and TK struggled the first half of last season (far beyond what could be explained by his linemates, he just couldn't score to save his life).

Giroux had a three year stretch when he wasn't a first line center, then he move to LW with Couts - and this decline occurred before he was injured, but most of the Hive pretends it never happened. He's healthy again, but he also was put in a position that optimizes his production.

The Hive mind overrates Voracek. Voracek is a good player, but already past his prime, JVR was a better player the last three seasons. And no one considers JVR a top player. Both players are good scorers, top PP scorers but somewhat indifferent when it comes to defense.

Provorov might be the most overrated Flyer, simply because people are projecting what he can become to what he already is, he's not a top 20 defenseman yet, but he's only 21 and most top defensemen are 25-32 or so. Given his work ethic, I think he has a shot at becoming an elite (top 5 or so) defenseman in a few years.

I see a lot of wishful thinking in evaluations, mostly about how fast players develop, people want prospects to instantly emerge, and the reality is it takes time, some faster than others, but none as fast as we wish.
Thank you for proving the point
 
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wankstifier

All glory to the harvest god
Jun 19, 2018
7,683
11,097
The Hive has favorites, and tends to skew its perceptions, exaggerating the quality of its favorites, and overly denigrating its scapegoats.

Couts was controversial 3 years ago, some in and out of the hive said he was underrated, others said he was just a 3C.

TK and Ghost were overrated by the Hive at first, confusing potential with production, Ghost finally reached his potential last year, TK the second half of last year (though I don't think his 18% shooting percentage in the 2nd half is sustainable, so 30 goals is more reasonable playing a full season on the 1st line). Ghost wasn't very good in 2016-17, and TK struggled the first half of last season (far beyond what could be explained by his linemates, he just couldn't score to save his life).

Giroux had a three year stretch when he wasn't a first line center, then he move to LW with Couts - and this decline occurred before he was injured, but most of the Hive pretends it never happened. He's healthy again, but he also was put in a position that optimizes his production.

The Hive mind overrates Voracek. Voracek is a good player, but already past his prime, JVR was a better player the last three seasons. And no one considers JVR a top player. Both players are good scorers, top PP scorers but somewhat indifferent when it comes to defense.

Provorov might be the most overrated Flyer, simply because people are projecting what he can become to what he already is, he's not a top 20 defenseman yet, but he's only 21 and most top defensemen are 25-32 or so. Given his work ethic, I think he has a shot at becoming an elite (top 5 or so) defenseman in a few years.

I see a lot of wishful thinking in evaluations, mostly about how fast players develop, people want prospects to instantly emerge, and the reality is it takes time, some faster than others, but none as fast as we wish.

Gostisbehere started producing immediately. His production continued into the first few weeks of his sophomore season and then Hakstol inexplicably benched him, citing consistency issues. On the other hand, Konecny demonstrated good 5v5 numbers in a diminished role, showing potential for better counting numbers if given opportunity with better linemates. The points came when he played with the best first line in the NHL last season. What a surprise.

Giroux is one of the NHL's ironman--missing only 10 regular season games in his first 9 full seasons, or the majority of his NHL career. His tendency to play through injury probably affects his play. I'm not a fan of the mentality that playing through injury is an admirable trait, however, it offers a reasonable explanation of Giroux's drop in production by counting numbers. Couple injury issues with some of the worst team 5v5 points production in the league and there's further evidence that Giroux's decline at C by 5v5 points production had little to do with ability to handle his accustomed position. I can't agree that LW was the best position for Giroux last season since that premise relies on the assumption that Giroux would've been less productive at C. In addition, stacking the top line made the Flyers a less balanced, and therefore, less competitive team.

I'm missing your argument about how you think Voracek is overrated; he's one of the more maligned stars on the team.

Your narrative that wishful thinking skews fan perception of true ability seems to stick most with Provorov.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
You can win a Cup with players like Voracek and JVR, you just can't rely on them, they should be complementary pieces, not your core guys.
 

flyersjim73

Registered User
Nov 19, 2011
1,272
1,742
Philly
If think it might be a fair question to ask after this game if the team is better with Ghost, Provy, and Macdonald all playing, or with none of them playing.

If this game showed me anything it’s that Macdonald has been so bad that he actually MORE THAN negates the positives that Ghost and Provy bring to the lineup. It’s seriously impressive.
 
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deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
What is the Flyers' core?

Couts, Giroux and Provorov right now, Ghost has to step up in the playoffs.
Potential in a year or two: Patrick, Lindblom, TK, Sanheim.
A little further down the road: Myers, Frost, Farabee

O'Brien is more of an unknown, I love the Pimp but have to see him through a NHL season before I'll know if he's talented enough to be a major force.

To me, core players step in the playoffs, when the checking gets tight, they still make plays.
Voracek has never been a good playoff performer (3 ES goals in 30 PO games as a Flyer), JVR was with the Flyers but up and down with Toronto.

Flyers have a lot of potential contributors, we'll see who steps up.
Who would have predicted that Guentzel would be one of the top playoff scorers (pp/60) of the last two decades?
 

Angry Hockey Dad

Eat up Johnny
May 30, 2013
11,088
10,536
Canada
I missed the game and read a bit of this. Decided to just skip right to the third period based on the comments. The 4th line looked good, even Lehtera surprisingly. But that won't last surely
 

Angry Hockey Dad

Eat up Johnny
May 30, 2013
11,088
10,536
Canada
If think it might be a fair question to ask after this game if the team is better with Ghost, Provy, and Macdonald all playing, or with none of them playing.

If this game showed me anything it’s that Macdonald has been so bad that he actually MORE THAN negates the positives that Ghost and Provy bring to the lineup. It’s seriously impressive.

Package deal, trade all 3 :sarcasm:
 

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