Potential Las Vegas Franchise

CHRDANHUTCH

Registered User
Mar 4, 2002
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Auburn, Maine
There is an article in this weeks hockey news on this, saying Bruckheimer is a potential owner, but that he wants an expansion franchise

I think a team in Vegas could work, but it has a huge risk/reward factor. The fact that Vegas is a growing market makes it a place where the NHL could have success, much like Raleigh/Durham and the fact that they have an ECHL team which has been able to survive despite others folding(Atlantic City,Long Beach) shows the potential to support an NHL team. Vegas offers an incredible advertising oppurtunity for the NHL, every inch of the boards in the rink they play in will have casino advertising bringing in money and the team could use the casinos to advertise the NHL.

However, for this to work the NHL needs to make sure a few things happen:
1. Bruckheimer is owner - he has had great success in the entertainment business and would be able to afford to endure some loses to create success. I feel he will be a Mark Cuban type owner and want to do anything he can to produce wins for his team. Also, with Bruckheimer in the enterainment industry he has the power to create a television station much like Ted Turner's TBS, which would televise the teams games nationally as TBS does the Braves (not sure how versus would feel about this)
2. Beat the NBA to Vegas - If the Portland Trailblazers relocate and bring Greg Oden with them then the NHL will not be able to compete for ticket sales, tourism or advertising with a team wit such a budding superstar. However, getting there first the NHL team could own the arena and charge the NBA team rent(as discussed in point 3)
3. NHL team owns arena - for an NHL team to make money they must own the arena and auction off the rights for concessions and recieve money for other teams using the building (possibly NBA, Arena Football, wrestling) and concerts etc.

I think this is a risk worth taking if the team fails then the owner can always move it, just like what is happening in Nashville. 31 teams would not work and would open up potential expansion to Quebec or Winnipeg. The expansion fee paid by the teams will help the NHL owners. NHL fans would go to see their team on the road in Vegas for an excuse to spend the weekend there and the NHL should change the schedule to get Crosby and Ovechkin there at least every other year. I also don't think two additional teams will water down the talent too much. If the NHL wants to make the game relevant in the United States Vegas will open it up to a national audience as well as a growing local audience, and can also provide another Canadian team who will have an automatic fan base.


who said Portland is relocating their Blazers. Seattle is the franchise in the NBA exploring relocation.
 

aegwillnotwinthecup*

Guest
ya, but that's the problem, Kings, once the novelty of LV wears off, THEN WHAT, unless AEG Builds another arena wouldn't the LV Wranglers have first refusal since they are the active franchise there as Hamilton is now in regards to the Bulldogs.

I mean the AHL tried in Utah for 5 years then essentially ceded the franchise to Cleveland while reestablishing a presence in the Wranglers' current league.

I just don't want to keep reading about franchise relocation proposals every 3 months to a year if it doesn't work for whatever reason.

it won't be a novelty, unless for some reason tourists stop coming to vegas. utah is very different from LAS VEGAS.

considering bruckheimer would be the type of owner to throw all kinds of money at developing a competitive team fast, the "las vegas black aces" would be monstrous here, especially if they're making the playoffs in their first, second season (which expansion teams have done - panthers in 96).

the bottom line is that there is a massive ready and willing sports fanbase in las vegas. as already pointed out in this thread, if the nba doesn't jump on it then it's just a goldmine waiting for the nhl.
 

vivianmb

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Jan 10, 2007
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but is it a HOCKEY fanbase?
I'm not against LV particularly, just against blowing into town and dropping a franchise there only to see it wither.
i say put the ahl there and see how it does.
 

lvwranglersfan

Registered User
Jun 8, 2007
103
0
Las Vegas, NV
it won't be a novelty, unless for some reason tourists stop coming to vegas. utah is very different from LAS VEGAS.

considering bruckheimer would be the type of owner to throw all kinds of money at developing a competitive team fast, the "las vegas black aces" would be monstrous here, especially if they're making the playoffs in their first, second season (which expansion teams have done - panthers in 96).

the bottom line is that there is a massive ready and willing sports fanbase in las vegas. as already pointed out in this thread, if the nba doesn't jump on it then it's just a goldmine waiting for the nhl.

I also live in Las Vegas and I want to refute some of your points. Yes we may be able to support a team for a year, but if it is an expansion team, it should be expected to lose, and this town doesn't do well with losing. Look how well the attendance is going for the Gladiators. I know it is a different sport, but they are a bad team. I was offered free tickets and didn't want to go. And Arena football is foreign to me. And you also said that we have a large Kings fanbase. Do you really think a bunch of Kings fans are going to support a competitor as any team that is here would likely be in the same division? I am a Sharks fan and there is no way I would root for the Vegas team over the Sharks. And finally, I know you didn't say anything about the heat, but we normally don't hit 100+ until June, and even in the event we hit it in May, if we were still playing, no sales tool would be necessary as we would be late in the playoffs by then. I personally don't see an NHL team working here right now. The tickets would be too expensive and too many people can't go because they work different shifts. I could be wrong, but being a Wranglers season ticket holder, I do talk to a lot of hockey fans and most agree with me.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

Registered User
Mar 4, 2002
35,232
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Auburn, Maine
but is it a HOCKEY fanbase?
I'm not against LV particularly, just against blowing into town and dropping a franchise there only to see it wither.
i say put the ahl there and see how it does.

the AHL tried that, vivian, when they added Utah and we saw how that fell apart the last year of the Grizzlies legalities aside from Dallas' affiliation didn't exactly help Phoenix the year they were there.
 

aegwillnotwinthecup*

Guest
I also live in Las Vegas and I want to refute some of your points. Yes we may be able to support a team for a year, but if it is an expansion team, it should be expected to lose, and this town doesn't do well with losing. Look how well the attendance is going for the Gladiators. I know it is a different sport, but they are a bad team. I was offered free tickets and didn't want to go. And Arena football is foreign to me. And you also said that we have a large Kings fanbase. Do you really think a bunch of Kings fans are going to support a competitor as any team that is here would likely be in the same division? I am a Sharks fan and there is no way I would root for the Vegas team over the Sharks. And finally, I know you didn't say anything about the heat, but we normally don't hit 100+ until June, and even in the event we hit it in May, if we were still playing, no sales tool would be necessary as we would be late in the playoffs by then. I personally don't see an NHL team working here right now. The tickets would be too expensive and too many people can't go because they work different shifts. I could be wrong, but being a Wranglers season ticket holder, I do talk to a lot of hockey fans and most agree with me.

anyone who was raised here and has any loyalty whatsoever toward las vegas, nevada would cheer for the team. of course i'll always be a kings' fan, as i'm sure you'll always be a sharks' fan, but you're really telling me a team IN las vegas wouldn't at one point start to draw your loyalty?

as far as the franchise surviving, hell, if a hockey franchise can survive in raleigh or atlanta, a franchise could definitely survive here.

and yeah, i'm sorry, but you're wrong. how long have you lived in las vegas? everyone i've talked to who has a knowledge of the history of this city, its marketability, and the business of sports has agreed that putting an nhl franchise in sin city would be monstrous for the league.

and in today's nhl, a team can go from rags to riches in an offseason or two, so i wouldn't worry about a vegas team losing. i can only assume how many players would want to live here and play for a team.
 

Winston Wolf

Registered User
May 15, 2003
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but is it a HOCKEY fanbase?
I'm not against LV particularly, just against blowing into town and dropping a franchise there only to see it wither.
i say put the ahl there and see how it does.
The AHL would get some attention, but it is 2nd tier. People here want a team from one of the four major leagues, not some league most have never heard of. The Thunder received tons of support, (Bob Strumm was a marketing genius) but not nearly the support it would have received if it were the NHL. We already have a minor league baseball team and a minor league hockey team, so an AHL franchise would be viewed exactly as that. People here want to see stars, not scrubs. That was one reason the Thunder were so popular, because Strumm brought legitimate NHL stars here and believe me, during those times there was a huge local buzz around the franchise.

In the past ten years Las Vegas has grown a ridiculous amount and I really see no reason why it wouldn't succeed.

And to the guy worried about the Wranglers getting in the way... are you actually serious? You must not know anything about Las Vegas or business in general. If Jerry Bruckheimer and a group of billionaires want to start a franchise in Las Vegas, the Wranglers don't even exist.
 

jamiebez

Registered User
Apr 5, 2005
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Ottawa
If Jerry Bruckheimer and a group of billionaires want to start a franchise in Las Vegas, the Wranglers don't even exist.
One thing I've learned in life is that this is really the only thing that matters.

It really doesn't matter how well Las Vegas or Hamilton or Kansas City or anywhere else can support a team. When you've got a billionaire owner, all that really matters is where he wants to put them and how many 0's are on the cheque.
 

lvwranglersfan

Registered User
Jun 8, 2007
103
0
Las Vegas, NV
anyone who was raised here and has any loyalty whatsoever toward las vegas, nevada would cheer for the team. of course i'll always be a kings' fan, as i'm sure you'll always be a sharks' fan, but you're really telling me a team IN las vegas wouldn't at one point start to draw your loyalty?

as far as the franchise surviving, hell, if a hockey franchise can survive in raleigh or atlanta, a franchise could definitely survive here.

and yeah, i'm sorry, but you're wrong. how long have you lived in las vegas? everyone i've talked to who has a knowledge of the history of this city, its marketability, and the business of sports has agreed that putting an nhl franchise in sin city would be monstrous for the league.

and in today's nhl, a team can go from rags to riches in an offseason or two, so i wouldn't worry about a vegas team losing. i can only assume how many players would want to live here and play for a team.

I've been here for 6 years and trust me, I've always wanted an NHL team here. But now I don't. For one, I wouldn't be able to afford to go, which is the one point you neglected to mention from my earlier post. There is no way I can afford to pay anywhere from double to 4 times what my seat costs for the Wranglers. And as much as people rag on the "minor-league" aspect, there is no way I would be getting value equal to the increase in price. And no, I probably wouldn't become a big fan of the new team simply because they compete with the Sharks. I used to love baseball, and having the 51s here, you would think I would want to go, but I hate the Dodgers and they are a Dodgers team so I don't go. The only time I went was when they played a Giants team. So I could see myself going to maybe 3 games a year to an NHL team, when they play the Sharks. Personally I would prefer the NHL move elsewhere and we keep the Wranglers.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

Registered User
Mar 4, 2002
35,232
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Auburn, Maine
anyone who was raised here and has any loyalty whatsoever toward las vegas, nevada would cheer for the team. of course i'll always be a kings' fan, as i'm sure you'll always be a sharks' fan, but you're really telling me a team IN las vegas wouldn't at one point start to draw your loyalty?

as far as the franchise surviving, hell, if a hockey franchise can survive in raleigh or atlanta, a franchise could definitely survive here.

and yeah, i'm sorry, but you're wrong. how long have you lived in las vegas? everyone i've talked to who has a knowledge of the history of this city, its marketability, and the business of sports has agreed that putting an nhl franchise in sin city would be monstrous for the league.

and in today's nhl, a team can go from rags to riches in an offseason or two, so i wouldn't worry about a vegas team losing. i can only assume how many players would want to live here and play for a team.

Why don't we just relocate the LA Kings then using the anti-AHL BIAS, Winston Wolf, cause it sounds like you're a Kings fan, but not a Manchester Monarchs fan, or a Reading Royals fan either cause aren't those franchises owned or operated or affiliated w/ the LA Kings, I know where we'll put them Kansas City:shakehead
 

Winston Wolf

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May 15, 2003
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Philadelphia
so the league has to put a team there, because they wont like the ahl?

Why don't we just relocate the LA Kings then using the anti-AHL BIAS, Winston Wolf, cause it sounds like you're a Kings fan, but not a Manchester Monarchs fan, or a Reading Royals fan either cause aren't those franchises owned or operated or affiliated w/ the LA Kings, I know where we'll put them Kansas City:shakehead
First off, I'm a Flyers fan and I don't understand what the hell you're trying to say.


I know neither of you want a team in an American city like Las Vegas where you can't play hockey in the winter time, and obviously hockey fans aren't the majority. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about. They won't support the AHL because it isn't a major league team, just like they won't support minor league teams from any other popular sport. How about Toronto? The center of the hockey universe, yet they don't support the AHL at all. Obviously one could logically deduce that AHL support does NOT correlate to NHL support.

The people of Las Vegas want a major league sports team, whether it is football, baseball, basketball, or hockey. They would support them because they are a major attraction, not because they are hockey fans (or football, basketball, etc.) I guarantee you most of the Wranglers season ticket holders are hardcore hockey fans, yet the casual fan is rare because most really have no desire to see a hockey game played on such a low level. An NHL team would attract casual and first time spectators and turn them into hockey fans.
 

tony d

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Jun 23, 2007
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I think that all 4 major sports leagues have to be looking at the Las Vegas market as a city in which to put a team in, it is a rising market and it would be a boon to any of those leagues to have a team in Las Vegas.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

Registered User
Mar 4, 2002
35,232
4,218
Auburn, Maine
First off, I'm a Flyers fan and I don't understand what the hell you're trying to say.


I know neither of you want a team in an American city like Las Vegas where you can't play hockey in the winter time, and obviously hockey fans aren't the majority. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about. They won't support the AHL because it isn't a major league team, just like they won't support minor league teams from any other popular sport. How about Toronto? The center of the hockey universe, yet they don't support the AHL at all. Obviously one could logically deduce that AHL support does NOT correlate to NHL support.

The people of Las Vegas want a major league sports team, whether it is football, baseball, basketball, or hockey. They would support them because they are a major attraction, not because they are hockey fans (or football, basketball, etc.) I guarantee you most of the Wranglers season ticket holders are hardcore hockey fans, yet the casual fan is rare because most really have no desire to see a hockey game played on such a low level. An NHL team would attract casual and first time spectators and turn them into hockey fans.


Winston Wolf

an AHL OR NHL franchise won't work in Las Vegas because of what transpired in Utah forcing the Grizzlies to split for the ECHL as well as forcing the sale of the dormant AHL Grizzlies to Dan Gilbert & Cleveland (now Lake Erie).

Why are the Wranglers a Double AA Franchise right now?

It's not the Anti winter bias that some have proclaimed, WW, IT'S CALLED A DOSE OF REALISM. Utah, as Las Vegas would be, were/WILL BE geographically isolated from the balance of the AHL as was proven by Utah's exit to the ECHL.

Our League moved to the midwest only after economic factors dictated that the classic IHL (NOT the recent announcement of the new IHL).

Toronto doesn't support the AHL, Did or were Toronto fans thrilled that an Edmonton affiliated franchise played in their backyard in 2003 before MLSE left Atlantic Canada.

Some of you need to do some research about the AHL BEFORE YOU start spouting about the AHL AND what it represents.:shakehead
 

lvwranglersfan

Registered User
Jun 8, 2007
103
0
Las Vegas, NV
First off, I'm a Flyers fan and I don't understand what the hell you're trying to say.


I know neither of you want a team in an American city like Las Vegas where you can't play hockey in the winter time, and obviously hockey fans aren't the majority. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about. They won't support the AHL because it isn't a major league team, just like they won't support minor league teams from any other popular sport. How about Toronto? The center of the hockey universe, yet they don't support the AHL at all. Obviously one could logically deduce that AHL support does NOT correlate to NHL support.

The people of Las Vegas want a major league sports team, whether it is football, baseball, basketball, or hockey. They would support them because they are a major attraction, not because they are hockey fans (or football, basketball, etc.) I guarantee you most of the Wranglers season ticket holders are hardcore hockey fans, yet the casual fan is rare because most really have no desire to see a hockey game played on such a low level. An NHL team would attract casual and first time spectators and turn them into hockey fans.

Again, the one argument getting ignored is how are we going to pay for the tickets. The people making really good money in this town are forced to work nights and weekends because that is when this town is busy. I make a good living here but I don't feel like I would want to pay as much as $80 a ticket for hockey, and I wouldn't want to sit in the nosebleeds for cheaper. As much as the Wranglers are AA, I pay $20 a ticket for seats on the blue line. I don't feel I would get 4 times the hockey and therefore don't see the NHL as a value for money. I am, however, resigned to the fact that the NHL will probably come here, and will be gone again within 5 years because the novelty will wear off. We have to rely on residents to support this team, not visitors, and as far as a sports team in this town, I think minor league is all the residents can support based on the economy.
 

Cats Gambler

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Apr 2, 2007
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Las Vegas, NV
I would love to have a team here, but I expect that:

a. It wouldn't do too well
b. I won't be here for much longer, so I don't know how that would work out.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

Registered User
Mar 4, 2002
35,232
4,218
Auburn, Maine
Again, the one argument getting ignored is how are we going to pay for the tickets. The people making really good money in this town are forced to work nights and weekends because that is when this town is busy. I make a good living here but I don't feel like I would want to pay as much as $80 a ticket for hockey, and I wouldn't want to sit in the nosebleeds for cheaper. As much as the Wranglers are AA, I pay $20 a ticket for seats on the blue line. I don't feel I would get 4 times the hockey and therefore don't see the NHL as a value for money. I am, however, resigned to the fact that the NHL will probably come here, and will be gone again within 5 years because the novelty will wear off. We have to rely on residents to support this team, not visitors, and as far as a sports team in this town, I think minor league is all the residents can support based on the economy.

I agree w/ the above statement except be glad the Wranglers are there for the common hockey fan in Las Vegas, lvwranglersfan, It'll be awhile before expansion (if it occurs) will happen in LV, and hopefully the Wranglers continue to persevere and grow their fanbase when possible.
 

ckg927

Registered User
Apr 2, 2007
2,625
336
Buffalo, NY
Sorry,I'm still opposed to putting a team in Las Vegas-expansion or otherwise.

It matters not that Vegas is the #43 media market in the US,is one of the fastest growing cities in the country,etc. If you haven't guessed,there's a whole boatload of competition for your entertainment dollar than anywhere else on the planet. Do you honestly think that,long-term(I'm talking 10-20 years,at least),the locals are going to opt for hockey? (To answer yes,you have to ignore the fact that quite a few jobs in Vegas are tied into the casinos-and we know what weird hours and shifts they have. Hours that they can't use to go down to the arena and watch the NHL.)Or is it going to wind up like Miami,Nashville,Washington and the Islanders....great business for a few years(and no one will deny that the first few years of a Vegas team will give the league great pub),but once the newness fades they play in a half-empty building? If it's the latter,the NHL is REALLY going to take a major hit to its credibility. Not that it has much left to begin with. And we're all going to be talking about "Where's the Vegas team going to?".
 

Killer

Registered User
May 16, 2006
192
0
Karlstad
With the current NHL scedual that will happen once every three years. Only way tourist would go see a team in Vegas if they had a Crosby calibre player.


What if they (LV) enters the league in the 09/10 season and wins the draft lottery for the '09 draft and get the #1 pick. Yes, John Tavares in Las Vegas.
Gary Bettman's dream?
 

Wranglers110

Registered User
Dec 20, 2004
219
0
Las Vegas, NV
This isn't a sports town. Would never work. We might get bandwagon fans if the team is successful, but I wouldn't even count on that.

That being said, our ECHL franchise does pretty well for itself, but it operates on a modest basis to begin with.
 

StevenintheATL

Registered User
Jun 12, 2004
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The ATL!
When I go to Vegas during the ECHL season, I always check to see if the Wranglers were playing. I did miss seeing them play in the Kelly Cup Playoffs back in '04 as I didn't keep track of the series with Idaho too well.

A team in Las Vegas would probably as it tries to establish a fan base, see their home games look like away games many nights as most of the fans will be either folks who flew in for the game or like they are in some expansion cities, Las Vegas fans except when they other team is in town.

The news of a 22,000 seat arena as part of a complex just north of the Stratosphere (that area is in the early stages of redevelopment) is great news since an arena is what is lacking in attracting a team. There are already plans in place to extend the monorail through that area (as part of the proposed extension to Downtown and the already approved extension to the airport), so that will definitely be a plus.

http://www.vegastodayandtomorrow.com/pulse.htm

Now whether the NHL or the NBA will be the first one to jump into the waters remains to be seen. The NBA may have had the welcome mat pulled out from under it as a result of some of the negative things that happened during the recent NBA All-Star Game held there.
 

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